Dogs - surgical stop of bark?

[BDBoop]

 

[Kiki Cannoli]

I adopted a debarked beagle from a laboratory situation. After a few years the chords healed and he sounded a bit like a baby crying. I wouldn't choose to debark, but I will be honest, receiving him already 'quiet' wasn't all that bad.

 

[Katzndogz]

IMO debarking surgery is wrong, but not nearly as selfish and cruel as declawing a cat. And don't give me the bullshit 'indoor' cat excuse either. Even indoor cats sometimes get out, and you've taken away the cats one and only ability to defend itself or even climb a tree to get out of harm's way. If you have your cat declawed, you're not a cat lover, you're a fucking asshole.

Cats do not use front claws for self defense, it's the rear claws. A declawed cat can climb a tree just fine using rear claws. Front claws are used for hunting and injuring prey, they aren't even used for killing prey. If you have seen a cat with a newly caught meal, they hold it by the neck and shake their heads very rapidly breaking lunch's neck. A cat in a battle rolls over on its back and rips open bellies with those powerful rear claws. If a cat is not expected to hunt down and kill it's own kibble, front claws are merely a nuisance.

I would never deprive a cat of rear claws. Front claws are good for climbing drapes and scratching furniture. Indoor cats do just fine, they still exhibit clawing behavior and I don't have to tell them no. That makes the cat very happy since it can engage in instinctive behavior all over the house without damage. I've had cats that have been declawed and cats that haven't been declawed. The only difference I've noticed is that it isn't easy to train a cat not to claw it's how they spread their scent. Clipping claws doesn't work. Cats shed their old claws every few days and have sharp brand new claws that you don't even know about. Done young enough and the cat adapts quite well to not having claws. They don't even miss them. Like a dog really doesn't miss its bark. All the dog knows is that no one is shouting at them anymore.

 

[Katzndogz]

Speaking of attributing our emotional lives to them...

This weekend, my saint managed to open the back sliding glass door, and he and the terrier both escaped some time in the night. This is bad..the terrier likes to hunt and is fairly aggressive towards other dogs. My concern is that she and the saint will knock some old codger walking his Mitzy poodle over and I'll be liable for a horrific lawsuit (what dogs? I've never seen those dogs before in my life!)...or my terrier will start a fight that my saint will finish, or will start a fight that will be the end of her (the saint isn't much for fighting but he does love his terrier).

Or they'll get hit by a car.

Anyway, they escaped, and the saint returned, exhausted, wet, stressed, panting...and the terrier didn't.

Throughout the day, my big boy acted depressed. He laid around, he panted, he whined, he looked soulful. I was sure he'd witnessed something traumatic, or he was just distressed over the absence of his pet. We pampered him as we frantically looked for the terrier, called the cops, visited the pound, went around to neighbors and just random people walking in the streets with our tale of woe.

As if it would make any difference...nobody can lay a hand on her but me, save one little boy I knew who was determined and would just chase her cross country and jump on her, and take the bites he got as a matter of course...but I don't expect my neighbors to do that...

Anyway, we all felt so sorry for my saint, my heart broke for him!

Then the terrier came back! Joy!

Except...he didn't even get up off the floor. His behavior remained exactly the same. I don't think he cared at all, I think he was just tired! All that anxious empathy on my part...for nothing.

Or maybe he was mad at her for whatever happened...out there....

Anyway, the point is, we have no idea. They're dogs. We're human. We're motivated by different things.

Last week I had to put the cat down. He was 16, with a massive cancerous tumor on his liver. He was in terrific pain. I miss the old guy, he had a big heart and was a lifesaver more than once.

My dog took it very hard. She's only 7 so he was in her life since we got her at 3 weeks. She never knew a day without that cat. They would fight unbelievably, claws, fangs, teeth, screaming, biting, but they never hurt one another and the battles royal always ended up the same way, a cat/dog fur pile sound asleep. My dog missed the cat so much, she spend a lot of time at the mirror to ease her lonliness. She laid down in all his favorite spots. I think she's getting over it now.

 

[manifold]

IMO debarking surgery is wrong, but not nearly as selfish and cruel as declawing a cat. And don't give me the bullshit 'indoor' cat excuse either. Even indoor cats sometimes get out, and you've taken away the cats one and only ability to defend itself or even climb a tree to get out of harm's way. If you have your cat declawed, you're not a cat lover, you're a fucking asshole.

Cats do not use front claws for self defense, it's the rear claws. A declawed cat can climb a tree just fine using rear claws. Front claws are used for hunting and injuring prey, they aren't even used for killing prey. If you have seen a cat with a newly caught meal, they hold it by the neck and shake their heads very rapidly breaking lunch's neck. A cat in a battle rolls over on its back and rips open bellies with those powerful rear claws. If a cat is not expected to hunt down and kill it's own kibble, front claws are merely a nuisance.

I would never deprive a cat of rear claws. Front claws are good for climbing drapes and scratching furniture. Indoor cats do just fine, they still exhibit clawing behavior and I don't have to tell them no. That makes the cat very happy since it can engage in instinctive behavior all over the house without damage. I've had cats that have been declawed and cats that haven't been declawed. The only difference I've noticed is that it isn't easy to train a cat not to claw it's how they spread their scent. Clipping claws doesn't work. Cats shed their old claws every few days and have sharp brand new claws that you don't even know about. Done young enough and the cat adapts quite well to not having claws. They don't even miss them. Like a dog really doesn't miss its bark. All the dog knows is that no one is shouting at them anymore.

I stopped reading there.

Obviously you're not just a fucking asshole, you're patently retarded too.

 

[KissMy]

My neighbors have two dogs that bark at cars, clouds, leaves and everything else. I talked to them about it but the guys response was typical of most dog lovers:

"That's just what dogs do!"

I just received my electronic Bark Stopper last week and put in close to where he keeps his dogs most of the time.

They hardly made a peep yesterday!

Neighbors are upset though; "What the f*ck is that?" Oh it's a bark stopper! "Well that's f*cked up!"

Well, that's what Humans do!

I have a friend who has a Jack Russell that barked all the time so much so that all of her neighbors kept calling the police & animal control on her. She moved & the new neighbors did the same thing. So she had the vocal cords cut. It still barked but you could not hear if outside. It was still a problem when she would watch my dog because when her dog kept barking like quiet laryngitis it would cause my loud dog to bark. Then the police would get called again. So she had to stop dog sitting. She eventually gave that dog to her dad who lived in the country.

 

[koshergrl]

When I was a kid my mom spent a lot of money we didn't have on a pedigreed German Shepherd pup...who got one of our semi-tame half-Siamese cats trapped under the table.

The cat took out her eye with a front claw.

They do use their front claws.

I've also had my share of attacks from the front end...not funny playful attacks, either.

But what mom always says about declawing....if they get outside (and they usually will) they need those claws to climb, if something's chasing them.

 

[Katzndogz]

When I was a kid my mom spent a lot of money we didn't have on a pedigreed German Shepherd pup...who got one of our semi-tame half-Siamese cats trapped under the table.

The cat took out her eye with a front claw.

They do use their front claws.

I've also had my share of attacks from the front end...not funny playful attacks, either.

But what mom always says about declawing....if they get outside (and they usually will) they need those claws to climb, if something's chasing them.

That was all the cat could do was reach out from a cornered position. Talk to an animal behaviorist, they'll tell you. Cats fight with back claws. They climb with back claws too.

Declawing is not cruel
Cat Claws

I've had cats that kept their claws and cats that I've declawed. Indoor declawed cats are generally happier and more even tempered than cats that have kept their claws.

I've had scratching posts made out of everything in the world and used soft claws caps. I've used attractants and repellants. Every kind and type of cat behavior control. I prefer just declawing and be done with it.

 

[Emma]

My cat decided to wake me by walking across my face ... puncturing my cheek with her back claw. I called my doc to make sure my tetanus was up to date, but they had to call me back ... she was laughing too hard to look it up.

Damn cat is lucky to be alive.

 

[koshergrl]

When I was a kid my mom spent a lot of money we didn't have on a pedigreed German Shepherd pup...who got one of our semi-tame half-Siamese cats trapped under the table.

The cat took out her eye with a front claw.

They do use their front claws.

I've also had my share of attacks from the front end...not funny playful attacks, either.

But what mom always says about declawing....if they get outside (and they usually will) they need those claws to climb, if something's chasing them.

That was all the cat could do was reach out from a cornered position. Talk to an animal behaviorist, they'll tell you. Cats fight with back claws. They climb with back claws too.

Declawing is not cruel
Cat Claws

I've had cats that kept their claws and cats that I've declawed. Indoor declawed cats are generally happier and more even tempered than cats that have kept their claws.

I've had scratching posts made out of everything in the world and used soft claws caps. I've used attractants and repellants. Every kind and type of cat behavior control. I prefer just declawing and be done with it.

Sure they do it when they're trapped. They only fight with their hind claws when they're actually being held on their backs. That's when cats fight. Why on earth do you think they would fight other than when they're cornered or being held down?

I've seen cats using their front claws to attack and defend themselves. I have years and years of seeing cats use their front claws. I've had front claws used on me when they absolutely weren't trapped. I dont' care if you declaw your cats, but what you're saying is hooey.

I've also seen a mother cat come out of a house and jump on the heads of two dogs...she held on with her back feet and smacked the shit out of the dogs' heads with her front, then jumped onto the head of the other one and did it to him. She definitely wasn't trapped. She ran over my feet on her way out the front door and left bleeding 3 inch cuts across the tops just from running across my feet.

 

[manifold]

When I was a kid my mom spent a lot of money we didn't have on a pedigreed German Shepherd pup...who got one of our semi-tame half-Siamese cats trapped under the table.

The cat took out her eye with a front claw.

They do use their front claws.

I've also had my share of attacks from the front end...not funny playful attacks, either.

But what mom always says about declawing....if they get outside (and they usually will) they need those claws to climb, if something's chasing them.

That was all the cat could do was reach out from a cornered position. Talk to an animal behaviorist, they'll tell you. Cats fight with back claws. They climb with back claws too.

Declawing is not cruel
Cat Claws

I've had cats that kept their claws and cats that I've declawed. Indoor declawed cats are generally happier and more even tempered than cats that have kept their claws.

I've had scratching posts made out of everything in the world and used soft claws caps. I've used attractants and repellants. Every kind and type of cat behavior control. I prefer just declawing and be done with it.

Sure they do it when they're trapped. They only fight with their hind claws when they're actually being held on their backs. That's when cats fight. Why on earth do you think they would fight other than when they're cornered or being held down?

I've seen cats using their front claws to attack and defend themselves. I have years and years of seeing cats use their front claws. I've had front claws used on me when they absolutely weren't trapped. I dont' care if you declaw your cats, but what you're saying is hooey.

I've also seen a mother cat come out of a house and jump on the heads of two dogs...she held on with her back feet and smacked the shit out of the dogs' heads with her front, then jumped onto the head of the other one and did it to him. She definitely wasn't trapped. She ran over my feet on her way out the front door and left bleeding 3 inch cuts across the tops just from running across my feet.

...and they definitely can't climb trees without front claws. That claim is perhaps even more retarded.

 

[oldernwiser]

And, apparently from that article, it is pretty common in show dogs.

I might even write a letter to the AKC asking them to consider DQing any dog from show competitions who has had this done.

Really, they should NOT condone such a procedure. They should immediately stop enabling such a thing by a simple change to competition qualifications.

Such enabling should not be tolerated.

Seems to me that a dog is DQ'd immediately if they have been spayed or neutered. Shouldn't be too hard a sell to also include other surgical alterations.

Maybe if barking was made to be part of the breed standard...?

 

[koshergrl]

Barking actually is part of the breed standard of some breeds.

Hounds, for example, and beagles, and dogs who give voice. My little loon is a parson russell...a jack russell bred to chase foxes, so interbred with fox terriers to increase their leg length...and she has an incredibly powerful voice.

Those big powerful voices combined with the hypervigilance that is the trademark of hunting dogs do not combine well with town living. She's perfectly happy in town...but she doesn't make our neigbors or us happy with her head-splitting, frantic barking about 200 x a day.

 

[MHunterB]

A forme neighbor behind us had a neurotic Sheltie who was left in their yard from about 4:30 AM until they got home about 6:30 PM. Frantic high-pitched barking every time a stray leaf blew into the yard..... never mind when the Sheltie saw a squirrel!

There's a hill behind our house, so their yard was at the level of our bedroom windows. We had to keep the A/C going pretty much year-round to ever sleep past 4:30.

Sometimes debarking might be a way of avoiding having to take a dog from a home - after irate neighbors execute its owners for 'noise terrorism'.

But short of such situations, debarking a dog IS cruel and unnatural. I think it's worse than declawing kittons. Especially for a beagle. They don't 'bark': they 'bugle'!

 

[BDBoop]

They DO bugle! And bay, and bark ... they have a variety of vocals.

I used to have a sheltie mix, AND I have an exaggerated startle reflex. So every time our little one kicked in with the Dino "yip-yip-yip-yip-yip!!" the big one would startle-bark, and somebody would need a giant spatula to pry me off the ceiling.

 

[earlycuyler]

My dog stops barking when I say "shush".

 

[BDBoop]

<.< Huh. That can't be normal.

 

[Thorgasm]

Good grief people! Animals are not furniture or accessories. Declawing cats is retarded. You can trim their nails. They scratch to keep them from getting too long.

Debarking a dog is retarded too. Most chronic barkers are bored. Dogs need walked daily for at least an hour. You also have to interact with them. Training gives them mental stimulation. Anyone who keeps their dogs outside in a cage all day needs to do some time in jail. Dogs aren't lawn ornaments.

I am amazed at the people who acquire pets without doing any research about their needs.

Also, 90% of dog communication is non-verbal. If people learned how to read their dog's body language the dog wouldn't have to bark incessantly.

 

[signelect]

Dogs bark, some breeds more than others. My dog is a Chesapeak Bay Retriver and she waight over 100 lbs, when she barks I listen and the people out side more door listen to. If you don't like dogs barking buy a snake.

 

[Thorgasm]

Dogs bark, some breeds more than others. My dog is a Chesapeak Bay Retriver and she waight over 100 lbs, when she barks I listen and the people out side more door listen to. If you don't like dogs barking buy a snake.

Fish are also an option.