Does President Obama get credit for saving GM?

[Avorysuds]

It seems all Obama did was put the country in more debt by using tax payer money to do a personal investment. GM will probably go under or not pay us back in full. It's also not the job of Government to bail out anyone, who decides who gets bail outs and who does not?

The context shouldn't be "Did Obama save GM" or "Did GM pay back the tax payer." The context should be "Where does Government have the authority to steal money from tax payers to risk investments in private companies."

What happens if GM does not pay us back? Does Obama go to jail? What's the rick politicians face in the future when doing this same action when past Presidents/politicians feared no repercussions?

 

[eflatminor]

Did bondholders in general, suffer during the economic crisis of 2007?

Non Sequitur. What happen to those bondholders had nothing to do with the economic climate at the time. It was a clear violation of contract law.

reading lesson definitions: Non sequitur (logic) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you for demonstrating your non sequitur...oh the irony!
Edited: no name calling.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I would hope pretty well after getting nearly $50 billion of other people's money. Christ!

The point is, I don't care how they're doing. That's a concern for GM's employees, business partners and stakeholders. They should have faced bankruptcy just like anyone else. It was a gift to unions, a butt fuck for bondholders and taxpayers.

How many corporations in US History have been bailed out with other people's money? Do you consider them all failures, or do you stand up and say GM is an anomaly in American business?

As in tax payer dollars?

No....

NEVER!

GM should have done the right thing on their own...just like Staples or any other Bain success story. With private sector money, not tax dollars taken at the point of a gun (I.R.S. will take you straight to jail if ya dont pay too).

Your opinion(s) is noted.

The 'right' thing again? In contract law is it permissible to break a contract? Companies and Entrepreneurs get bailed out and declare bankruptcy all the time...in order to save the business.

Did Romney and Bain ever bring a company to bankruptcy? Tax dollars are not taken at the point of a gun. Tax dollars are shared societal responsibilities. People who shirk responsibilities are referred to as...deadbeats

 

[Avorysuds]

How many corporations in US History have been bailed out with other people's money? Do you consider them all failures, or do you stand up and say GM is an anomaly in American business?

I'm saying NO business should ever be bailed out with taxpayer money.

Is there an enumerated power to bailout union friendly businesses that I missed?

Edited.

Edited. As the OP {post #1} states: this very same topic is from another thread where the conversation went south.

He answered your question extremely well. How does Obama get credit for something he is not even legally allowed to do? Should all Presidents be allowed to use tax payer monies for gambles and get credit if it works out yet have no punishments if the money ends up being wasted?

 

[The Infidel]

Are bailouts or bankruptcy considered failure? Lee Iacocca? Donald Trump?

Yes....

But one is the right way, and the other is the wrong way. We the taxpayers should not be stuck holding the bag on this... the unions should pay for what they did, and GM should pay for getting in bed with them. Any grade school student could see it is all unsusatinable[sic] in the long run.

The union goons are in for the short term.

Challenge: Union goons is a term for Union men who beat up scabs. Name the Union goons you are referring to, please...and how the term applies to the named men.

GM got in bed with the Unions? Where is a credible link for this point?

Are taxpayers holding the bag for things? What if GM folded? What if the suppliers had went out of business? These were the stories back then, if we did nothing. Please, show me where people argued with credibility that allowing GM and others to fail would be good for the tax payers.

Please explain what is the 'right' way and what qualifies as the 'wrong' way and why

First… the “right way” is on their own or with private sector money… just like Staples or any other private business does.
That way Obama cant claim to have “done it for you”
GM doing it on their own would of course be very painful… just like cancer surgery, and there is no guarantee of success either. That’s the way capitalism works here in America, or at least it used to.

It would have been better for the tax payers in the long run because it would send a clear message… clean up your act or fail. Plain and simple…

As for the “goons”.. I don’t have names and numbers… but I grew up in a union home and I know how it works.
My dad’s union hall was ran by a family friend, and we always suspected funny business going on with him and it was proven last year when he was indicted for embezeling nearly 1 million dollars from the local union… along with his wife the secretary.
Goons come in all shapes and sizes… You want links for my accusation that GM was in bed with unions… its public knowledge that the unions were asking for WAY TOO MUCH and GM gave it.
Look it up… google is your friend (sometimes).

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

No, I didn't say GM was saved. I said he could get credit when he gives it.

This is all a mute point after all ... Obama didn't save GM ... Remember, 'if your a success, you didn't do that, someone else did that'

Edited.

 

[eflatminor]

How many corporations in US History have been bailed out with other people's money? Do you consider them all failures, or do you stand up and say GM is an anomaly in American business?

I'm saying NO business should ever be bailed out with taxpayer money.

Is there an enumerated power to bailout union friendly businesses that I missed?

Edited.

Edited. As the OP {post #1} states: this very same topic is from another thread where the conversation went south.

Oh, well, if you say so...

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

What if GM folded?

2) Bankruptcy protection would have allowed them to restructure. It would have sucked for union members but it would have been legal, moral and not unprecedented for bondholders and taxpayers.

What if the suppliers had went out of business?

No proof that would have been the case.

Please, show me where people argued with credibility that allowing GM and others to fail would be good for the tax payers.

1) The CATO Institute for starters. You won't find the argument on MSNBC or HuffPo.

1) If this kind of argument persists I will leave. It adds nothing is an attack unworthy of the time and effort put into this conversation so far.

2) I see where your argument is 'unions' bad, others good.

goodbye

 

[The Infidel]

Tax dollars are not taken at the point of a gun. Tax dollars are shared societal responsibilities. People who shirk responsibilities are referred to as...deadbeats

Tell Al Capone that.... what ya think would've happened if he refused to pay, and then refused to go to jail for it

Bullshit they are not taken at the point of a gun!

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Non Sequitur. What happen to those bondholders had nothing to do with the economic climate at the time. It was a clear violation of contract law.

reading lesson definitions: Non sequitur (logic) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you for demonstrating your non sequitur...oh the irony! Dolt.

insults?

goodbye and please leave the thread

 

[eflatminor]

goodbye

Okay then.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

It seems all Obama did was put the country in more debt by using tax payer money to do a personal investment...

personal investment?

where can we source this or am I misinterpreting what you've written?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

He answered your question extremely well. How does Obama get credit for something he is not even legally allowed to do?

can you please link to a reliable and credible source for this accusation?

 

[The Infidel]

It seems all Obama did was put the country in more debt by using tax payer money to do a personal investment...

personal investment?

where can we source this or am I misinterpreting what you've written?

He left... this place is too clean

 

[eflatminor]

He answered your question extremely well. How does Obama get credit for something he is not even legally allowed to do?

can you please link to a reliable and credible source for this accusation?

Still here?

Okay then. Have you read the Constitution? Show us were the authority lies to break the bondholder's contract and use taxpayer money to bail out GM. Your source is the law of the land.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Tax dollars are not taken at the point of a gun. Tax dollars are shared societal responsibilities. People who shirk responsibilities are referred to as...deadbeats

Tell Al Capone that.... what ya think would've happened if he refused to pay, and then refused to go to jail for it

Bullshit they are not taken at the point of a gun!

Al Capone was a convicted criminal. Obligations to society. We all agree to play by the rules or suffer the consequences...consequences enforced in the name of we the people.

 

[Avorysuds]

What if GM folded?

2) Bankruptcy protection would have allowed them to restructure. It would have sucked for union members but it would have been legal, moral and not unprecedented for bondholders and taxpayers.



No proof that would have been the case.

Please, show me where people argued with credibility that allowing GM and others to fail would be good for the tax payers.

1) The CATO Institute for starters. You won't find the argument on MSNBC or HuffPo.

1) If this kind of argument persists I will leave. It adds nothing is an attack unworthy of the time and effort put into this conversation so far.

2) I see where your argument is 'unions' bad, others good.

goodbye

He and many others have answered your question. The subject is simply not as shallow as “Did Obama save the day?”

In almost every case that Obama “saves the day” it seems the rules are dismissed solely for Obama. If GM failed would it have been Obama’s fault? No… But if they survive then does Obama get credit? It’s risk free for Obama. For the record GM have not been saved, they are still “hangin in there” at best and the money is not paid back.

It’s like the stimulus, Obama does it, it fails, but that ok because now it saved us from a depression….

It’s not the Presidents job to take tax payer money, give it to privet companies or citizens and gamble on something. Then if it fails say “I tried” or “it could have been worse!!!”

What I’m trying to tell you is giving Obama “credit” for doing something implies that if it didn’t work out there would be repercussions… There in fact no repercussions for Obama, it was purely a gamble with other people’s money, Obama would lose absolutely nothing if GM fails. In fact if GM fails Obama and his admin would simply claim GM didn't have what it took to get their stuff in order.

 

[Avorysuds]

It seems all Obama did was put the country in more debt by using tax payer money to do a personal investment...

personal investment?

where can we source this or am I misinterpreting what you've written?

Obama wanted to "save GM," not the tax payers. Obama personally wanted to "invest" other people’s money and so he did. The investment of course is future votes.

 

[Avorysuds]

He answered your question extremely well. How does Obama get credit for something he is not even legally allowed to do?

can you please link to a reliable and credible source for this accusation?

Of course I can, this is the only one you will need on the subject of Federal powers.

The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net


Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

 

[The Infidel]

Tax dollars are not taken at the point of a gun. Tax dollars are shared societal responsibilities. People who shirk responsibilities are referred to as...deadbeats

Tell Al Capone that.... what ya think would've happened if he refused to pay, and then refused to go to jail for it

Bullshit they are not taken at the point of a gun!

Al Capone was a convicted criminal. Obligations to society. We all agree to play by the rules or suffer the consequences...consequences enforced in the name of we the people.

At the point of a gun and/or jail time... and btw, if you dont pay your taxes, you are a criminal and can be convicted of a crime for not doing so...

I know... I have had a run in with the IRS. They are BRUTAL AS FUNK!