"Does it Still Matter?" (Our Constitution)

[rdean]

I love it when you get right wingers like Boehner or Palin repeating words from the Declaration of Independence and insisting they came from the Constitution. Hilarious.

Paul Revere road to "Warn the British". Who knew?

And to insist they knew what people who believed in slavery and had no idea of science or phones or TV's or vaccines or telecommunications or computers "thought" is hilarious.

Is it true that Benjamin Franklin thought the Constitution wouldn't last a hundred years?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I love it when you get right wingers like Boehner or Palin repeating words from the Declaration of Independence and insisting they came from the Constitution. Hilarious.

Paul Revere road to "Warn the British". Who knew?

And to insist they knew what people who believed in slavery and had no idea of science or phones or TV's or vaccines or telecommunications or computers "thought" is hilarious.

Is it true that Benjamin Franklin thought the Constitution wouldn't last a hundred years?

I love it when Progressives express the depth of their fundamental misunderstanding of our system of government.

57 states? ATM's kicked the economy's ass? Asthma Breathalyzer? Corpse-men? Seeing dead people? Pinning Medal of Honor on a deceased soldier and insisting he was alive?

What the fuck do phones or TV's or computers have to do with the system of government? What is fundamentally different about the Constitution as a result of any of those?

Hilarious!

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." - Lysander Spooner

That's about the best summary of the Constitution one could find.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Do you have an example? I wonder, do you have any interest in reading the article?

if the constitution was followed we wouldn't be at war in libya.

if the constitution was followed we wouldn't have the patriot act

if the constitution was followed we wouldn't have medicare part D

if the constitution was followed we wouldn't have a massive national debt due to federal entitlement programs.

there are 4.

Hi Wry

Hey, I don't consider the Libya matter a settle matter. Obama was under pressure to act, using different 'tools' of course, as our nation has almost always acted when people around the world are in trouble. No American service personnel have been (to my knowledge) KIA or wounded and possibly thousands of civilians have been protected by a real coaltion.

As for the other three points I don't find them valid. Spending is authorized in the Constitution, in Article I, section 8 "The Congress will have the Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Depts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States".

Again, the ambiguity of the general welfare clause rears its head. What did welfare mean and how was it defined by the framers?

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

if the constitution was followed we wouldn't be at war in libya.

if the constitution was followed we wouldn't have the patriot act

if the constitution was followed we wouldn't have medicare part D

if the constitution was followed we wouldn't have a massive national debt due to federal entitlement programs.

there are 4.

Hi Wry

Hey, I don't consider the Libya matter a settle matter. Obama was under pressure to act, using different 'tools' of course, as our nation has almost always acted when people around the world are in trouble. No American service personnel have been (to my knowledge) KIA or wounded and possibly thousands of civilians have been protected by a real coaltion.

As for the other three points I don't find them valid. Spending is authorized in the Constitution, in Article I, section 8 "The Congress will have the Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Depts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States".

Again, the ambiguity of the general welfare clause rears its head. What did welfare mean and how was it defined by the framers?

still the constitution doesn't allow the president to do what he decided to have the military do, go to war with the govt of lybia, without congressional approval.

You did not adress the patriot act

And you misquoted Article 1, it says in its full context

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

As you can see they went on to describe just what falls under the general welfare and defense of the united states. Retirement and healthcare were not listed.

 

[boedicca]

I doubt the Framers would give a fig about Lady Gaga.

Really, if WC thinks Lady Gaga is of Constitutional Importance, then it's no wonder he/she/it is so whack.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Hi Wry

Hey, I don't consider the Libya matter a settle matter. Obama was under pressure to act, using different 'tools' of course, as our nation has almost always acted when people around the world are in trouble. No American service personnel have been (to my knowledge) KIA or wounded and possibly thousands of civilians have been protected by a real coaltion.

As for the other three points I don't find them valid. Spending is authorized in the Constitution, in Article I, section 8 "The Congress will have the Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Depts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States".

Again, the ambiguity of the general welfare clause rears its head. What did welfare mean and how was it defined by the framers?

still the constitution doesn't allow the president to do what he decided to have the military do, go to war with the govt of lybia, without congressional approval.

You did not adress the patriot act

And you misquoted Article 1, it says in its full context

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

As you can see they went on to describe just what falls under the general welfare and defense of the united states. Retirement and healthcare were not listed.

Agreed. I did not post the entirety of section 8, however, since you have raised the issue, consider. The phrase, "to raise and support Armies" does not authorize a draft. One might infer that a draft is authorized on the basis of "provide for a common defense"; a draft was not listed in the inumerated powers.

In fact one might argue the 13th Amendment prohibites the Congress from authorizing a draft, which they did in the Selective Service Acts (of which I'm sure were challenged during every war and in particular the Vietnam conflict).

 

[Wry Catcher]

I'm off to son number two's home to meet an electrition or three in re estimates. I hope a real debate and discussion evolves on this thread and that CrusaderFran stays away. His stupdity works only to derail honest and open debate. Having to defend ones opinion is healthy and there is always a possibility when debating details, of actual learning, even from those with whom we disagree..I respect those who hold opinions which differ from my own and are smart, informed and civilized all things crusaderfrank is not.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I'm off to son number two's home to meet an electrition or three in re estimates. I hope a real debate and discussion evolves on this thread and that CrusaderFran stays away. His stupdity works only to derail honest and open debate. Having to defend ones opinion is healthy and there is always a possibility when debating details, of actual learning, even from those with whom we disagree..I respect those who hold opinions which differ from my own and are smart, informed and civilized all things crusaderfrank is not.

Translation: CF is a 50 caliber sniper and I'm wearing a bullseye T shirt

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Hey, I don't consider the Libya matter a settle matter. Obama was under pressure to act, using different 'tools' of course, as our nation has almost always acted when people around the world are in trouble. No American service personnel have been (to my knowledge) KIA or wounded and possibly thousands of civilians have been protected by a real coaltion.

As for the other three points I don't find them valid. Spending is authorized in the Constitution, in Article I, section 8 "The Congress will have the Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Depts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States".

Again, the ambiguity of the general welfare clause rears its head. What did welfare mean and how was it defined by the framers?

still the constitution doesn't allow the president to do what he decided to have the military do, go to war with the govt of lybia, without congressional approval.

You did not adress the patriot act

And you misquoted Article 1, it says in its full context

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

As you can see they went on to describe just what falls under the general welfare and defense of the united states. Retirement and healthcare were not listed.

Agreed. I did not post the entirety of section 8, however, since you have raised the issue, consider. The phrase, "to raise and support Armies" does not authorize a draft. One might infer that a draft is authorized on the basis of "provide for a common defense"; a draft was not listed in the inumerated powers.

In fact one might argue the 13th Amendment prohibites the Congress from authorizing a draft, which they did in the Selective Service Acts (of which I'm sure were challenged during every war and in particular the Vietnam conflict).

interesting thought!

So your saying the 13th ammendment, by abolishing involultary servitude, exept for punishment for a crime, makes it illegal to draft citizens. Since they are forcing you to labor against your will the draft would be contrary to the 13th as involunatry servitude is not dependant on compensation but on circumstance.

Very interesting. Are we on the same page right now or did i misunderstand you?

 

[Wry Catcher]

still the constitution doesn't allow the president to do what he decided to have the military do, go to war with the govt of lybia, without congressional approval.

You did not adress the patriot act

And you misquoted Article 1, it says in its full context


As you can see they went on to describe just what falls under the general welfare and defense of the united states. Retirement and healthcare were not listed.

Agreed. I did not post the entirety of section 8, however, since you have raised the issue, consider. The phrase, "to raise and support Armies" does not authorize a draft. One might infer that a draft is authorized on the basis of "provide for a common defense"; a draft was not listed in the inumerated powers.

In fact one might argue the 13th Amendment prohibites the Congress from authorizing a draft, which they did in the Selective Service Acts (of which I'm sure were challenged during every war and in particular the Vietnam conflict).

interesting thought!

So your saying the 13th ammendment, by abolishing involultary servitude, exept for punishment for a crime, makes it illegal to draft citizens. Since they are forcing you to labor against your will the draft would be contrary to the 13th as involunatry servitude is not dependant on compensation but on circumstance.

Very interesting. Are we on the same page right now or did i misunderstand you?

I think we're on the same page, but maybe drawing different inferences. The Congress passed the Selective Service Act and the bill was signed into law by the president, precedent suggests for, say, the Congress to pass and the president to sign legislation on universal healthcare. Didn't we draft and require young men to put their life in jeopardy? Certainly asking one to pay for health insurance is not as great a burden as telling them to land on Utah Beach or take the point in a jungle half a world away from home.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The Supreme Court dismissed the ‘13th Amendment argument’ long ago:

[A]s we are unable to conceive upon what theory the exaction by government from the citizen of the performance of his supreme and noble duty of contributing to the defense of the rights and honor of the nation as the result of a war declared by the great representative body of the people can be said to be the imposition of involuntary servitude in violation of the prohibitions of the Thirteenth Amendment, we are constrained to the conclusion that the contention to that effect is refuted by its mere statement.

Arver v US [245 US 366 {1918}

 

[Wry Catcher]

The Supreme Court dismissed the ‘13th Amendment argument’ long ago:

[A]s we are unable to conceive upon what theory the exaction by government from the citizen of the performance of his supreme and noble duty of contributing to the defense of the rights and honor of the nation as the result of a war declared by the great representative body of the people can be said to be the imposition of involuntary servitude in violation of the prohibitions of the Thirteenth Amendment, we are constrained to the conclusion that the contention to that effect is refuted by its mere statement.

Arver v US [245 US 366 {1918}

The SC issued that ruling in 1918. At that time the selective service act had not been used to draft young men into a conflict which had not been declared by that "great representative body". Korea and Vietnam drafted young men into conflicts where war had not been declared.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Agreed. I did not post the entirety of section 8, however, since you have raised the issue, consider. The phrase, "to raise and support Armies" does not authorize a draft. One might infer that a draft is authorized on the basis of "provide for a common defense"; a draft was not listed in the inumerated powers.

In fact one might argue the 13th Amendment prohibites the Congress from authorizing a draft, which they did in the Selective Service Acts (of which I'm sure were challenged during every war and in particular the Vietnam conflict).

interesting thought!

So your saying the 13th ammendment, by abolishing involultary servitude, exept for punishment for a crime, makes it illegal to draft citizens. Since they are forcing you to labor against your will the draft would be contrary to the 13th as involunatry servitude is not dependant on compensation but on circumstance.

Very interesting. Are we on the same page right now or did i misunderstand you?

I think we're on the same page, but maybe drawing different inferences. The Congress passed the Selective Service Act and the bill was signed into law by the president, precedent suggests for, say, the Congress to pass and the president to sign legislation on universal healthcare. Didn't we draft and require young men to put their life in jeopardy? Certainly asking one to pay for health insurance is not as great a burden as telling them to land on Utah Beach or take the point in a jungle half a world away from home.

It would be able to be stretched like that (the 13th ammendment) as requiring you to purchase a product from a private company to be in good standing is not the same as requiring you to labor in a job against your will.

And I see the courts shot down using the 13th ammendment as a way to get out of a draft, so much for that little excercise in thinking

 

[Wry Catcher]

interesting thought!

So your saying the 13th ammendment, by abolishing involultary servitude, exept for punishment for a crime, makes it illegal to draft citizens. Since they are forcing you to labor against your will the draft would be contrary to the 13th as involunatry servitude is not dependant on compensation but on circumstance.

Very interesting. Are we on the same page right now or did i misunderstand you?

I think we're on the same page, but maybe drawing different inferences. The Congress passed the Selective Service Act and the bill was signed into law by the president, precedent suggests for, say, the Congress to pass and the president to sign legislation on universal healthcare. Didn't we draft and require young men to put their life in jeopardy? Certainly asking one to pay for health insurance is not as great a burden as telling them to land on Utah Beach or take the point in a jungle half a world away from home.

It would be able to be stretched like that (the 13th ammendment) as requiring you to purchase a product from a private company to be in good standing is not the same as requiring you to labor in a job against your will.

And I see the courts shot down using the 13th ammendment as a way to get out of a draft, so much for that little excercise in thinking

I suspect the court "shot down" the argument in terms of practicality. It's clear many young men are stirred by martial music and patriotism as well as a full time job and a full belly to enlist. Others think let some other slob get their ass shot off, I'm here, they're there and I can get all the tail I want.

In fact the draft is not involuntary servitude. It is expressly forbidden in the Constitution and defined in Ballentine's Law Dictionary thusly: "Compulsory labor under bondage, slavery or peonage, except as imposed by way of punishment for a crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted".

I with great reluctance concede. My example does not meet all the elements necessary for bondage, slavery or peonage as defined. I will seek another example, but, I'm off for one more bid on electrical work for my son's home.