Does it matter if Jesus isn't God?

[konradv]

Do you have to believe Jesus is God to be a good Christian?

I think there are some terms that need to be defined in this question:

What is a "good Christian" if not someone who realizes they are a sinner in need of a savior? The only kind of savior able to free us from moral enslavement is one that is outside of that enslavement. It would require a god to be in that position and have power over moral law and death. Without Jesus being God there is no Christianity, and actually there is no universe because all things were made through him, by him, and for him.

The trinity is essential for God to be a God of eternal love. Love from the beginning. Love is impossible without an object of that love, like how a father loves a son.

There are "good Christians" who DO believe in a savior, but aren't Trinitarians. To say that this "requires a god" is an opinion with real world examples that it isn't true. One may not agree with all the theological points of some of the non-Trinitarian sects, but I wouldn't insult them by automatically saying they aren't "good Chritians", just because they don't believe Jesus is God.

 

[Marie888]

If He isn't then the scriptures are false. So yes, It matters.

Either He is who He claimed to be or He is a complete fraud. There really isnt much room for compromise on that.

I don't recall a scripture where he said, "I am God". There are passages where you could interpret it that way, but you could also interpret it as Muslims and non-Trinitarian Christian do, that he was a lesser created being, NOT God.

Jesus said..

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou Me with Thine own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.

He doesn't have to say He is God as we want Him to say it, He IS God the Son, He came in the flesh.

Reading what Jesus said above, how could He have had Glory with the Father before the world was, if He was not already with the Father as He states here?

It really comes down to if someone chooses to really ask and/or seek Him or not, Who He is. Again, when sincere, He promises we'll find Him. If people choose to kick against it, try to argue it, debate it, well what reason would He have to reveal Himself? He's God, He already knows if a heart is hardenend against Him. So, what point is there? Love does not force itself on someone. Even though He loved us first, He isn't going to force us to love Him. He has given His Word, He is having it preached all over the world, yet many still reject it over and over because they want proof of seeing Him.

Simply, they need only ask Him in sincerity. He knows.


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[Marie888]

PS - Jesus said,

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

He's knocking but sadly too many are not answering.
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[konradv]

John and Revelations, Marie? One was the last gospel written and thereby suspect in that it may have been written to fit prophecy rather than the other way round and the other is a book that barely made it into the Bible! The quote was good, but wasn't that all a vision rather than the words of Jesus as found in the Gospels? It, also, DOES NOT say he is God. We can listen to his words and take them to heart without his being God.

 

[ABikerSailor]

But this discussion isn't in Hebrew. In English [and perhaps Spanish] his name is Jesus.

I think it would matter since there are all those commandments about not having other gods or worshipping false idols. Christians have to believe Jesus is God or whatever that holy ghost is unless they want to break all those commandments.

Like I said, I don't like it when they use a French or Spanish or any other translation of my name, why should I do it to the Son of God?

Just disrespectful in my book.

And, by the way.........you do realize that the Torah was originally translated from Hebrew to Greek (look up the Septuegent), and then from Greek to Latin, and then finally, into English.

Ever play the game "telephone"? Try it sometime with different languages.

Translating something is not the same as the game 'telephone'. In that game, you repeat by memory. When something is translated, it is right there to check and recheck to make sure it is done correctly. So there is no comparison to the game 'telephone' and translation of books from one language to another.

Actually, yes it is. I've been to 26 different countries and I've seen it. It depends on who is translating for you.

Oh yeah........and there are a couple of different words that mean almost the same thing in English, as well as every other language.

Might wanna watch "Hidden in the Hebrew" with Uri Harel on God's Learning Channel sometime.

 

[Marie888]

PS - Or more simply, in Christianity, most would agree that those who deny the Deity of Jesus Christ - that He is God, are either in a false teaching/doctrine, or possibly a cult, or don't know Him yet, or have rejected His truth.


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And all it took for you to have that position was the slaughter of countless followers of Christ who did not take the position that Christ was GOD, Marie.

I don't know how to break the news to you but nobody's got the LOCK on what it takes to be a Christian.

No you, not your pastor, not the POPE, or the Metropolitian or me, either.

Hmm, not sure why you are bringing that up, as the Bible tells us there will be false teachers or prophets that come in His Name? That also doesnt negate who HE is, or in the Bible Who He says He says He is.

You are right...I do not have the LOCK on it all, definately not, I'm only learning as I go, and I make mistakes. I apologize if I ever sound that way also.

However, I'm only trying to share verses and encouarge, and point to what Jesus Christ/His Word said. I personally can't make people believe Him or not, but I can point them to His Word. Either people seek and believe Him, or they choose not to, or they call His Word or Him a liar; they exchange the truth for a lie, they reject Him.

Jesus plainly said...

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

We either believe Him, or we don't, and that verse alone shows us that He is God. For Who forgives sins?

Here in these verses, The Word of God is showing how some have exchanged the truth for a lie, and that the invisible things of Him are clearly seen.

Romans 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Basically, sin is what keeps us from God, and Satan knows is, so it, so Satan also uses is against us. When people start seeking Jesus Christ, is usually when they are attacked and tempted by Satan the most. Because Satan knows that once someone knows the truth of Jesus Christ, "It is finished." Once we are the LORD's, there is NOTHING can take us away Him and from knowing the love our Lord. Satan knows he's lost the battle in that person's life when someone is born again by God's Spirit. Though Satan will try again and again to attack those who are in Christ.

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[konradv]

I haven't seen anyone attack Jesus in this thread, Marie. Even non-Trinitarians honor Jesus, like the Muslims, as a great prophet or Son of God, just not God Himself.

 

[Marie888]

John and Revelations, Marie? One was the last gospel written and thereby suspect in that it may have been written to fit prophecy rather than the other way round and the other is a book that barely made it into the Bible! The quote was good, but wasn't that all a vision rather than the words of Jesus as found in the Gospels? It, also, DOES NOT say he is God. We can listen to his words and take them to heart without his being God.

Hey kon.. well I'm not sure what you are looking for here. The Word of God is there and you either believe it (The Word of God) is from God or it's not. Again, I can't personally make you believe, but encourage you in the Word of God.

Here is something else that Jesus said,

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Why would He say that if He is not God?


Feel free to also (if you want) to meditate on the verses below. The scribes were attacking Jesus also, thinking, "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" See Jesus's answer...and more importantly, see that He knew what they were thinking "within" themselves. Only God can know our hearts and what we are thinking, right? Satan doesn't have that power. Men do not have that power.


Mark 2
1And again he entered into Capernaum after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house.

2And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them.

3And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.

4And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.

5When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

6But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,

7Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

8And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

9Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?

10But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

11I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

12And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

13And he went forth again by the sea side; and all the multitude resorted unto him, and he taught them.

14And as he passed by, he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him.

15And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.






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[Marie888]

I haven't seen anyone attack Jesus in this thread, Marie. Even non-Trinitarians honor Jesus, like the Muslims, as a great prophet or Son of God, just not God Himself.

Hmm, where are referring to in what I said? I think I was talking about Satan attacking people...? Pardon me, not sure what you are referring to, please.



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[Marie888]

I haven't seen anyone attack Jesus in this thread, Marie. Even non-Trinitarians honor Jesus, like the Muslims, as a great prophet or Son of God, just not God Himself.

Oh sorry, nevermind I think I get it.

 

[American Legacy]

The Encyclopædia Britannica states, "To some Christians the doctrine of the Trinity appeared inconsistent with the unity of God....They therefore denied it, and accepted Jesus Christ, not as incarnate God, but as God's highest creature by Whom all else was created....[this] view in the early Church long contended with the orthodox doctrine."

Nontrinitarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The two greatest commandments would still hold, love God and love your neighbor. Isn't everything else just window-dressing?

No, it's not. Jesus was not just a good, wise or admirable man. He was both man and god. Jesus' authority comes precisely from His being the Son of God, without which He could not created the universe, defeated Death and Hell, offer forgiveness of sins and save His people. The Bible clearly states that men have the ability to become adopted sons and daughters of God, but Jesus was not adopted because He was God's natural Son. And as Jesus himself said, anyone who denies His Sonship denies the Father who sent Him. One can not be a follower of Christ if one denies the divinity of the Messiah.

 

[konradv]

Seems a lot of the cites for Jesus' divinity come from Gospel of John. That made me do a little more research on the whole subject of Arianism and the belief that jesus wasn't eternal but a created being. Lo and behold, I founfd the passage FROM JOHN in which jesus himself claims, as the Arians do, that he was less than the Father.

John 14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."[3]

 

[Marie888]

Seems a lot of the cites for Jesus' divinity come from Gospel of John. That made me do a little more research on the whole subject of Arianism and the belief that jesus wasn't eternal but a created being. Lo and behold, I founfd the passage FROM JOHN in which jesus himself claims, as the Arians do, that he was less than the Father.

John 14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."[3]

You are right in the sense that is why they wanted to kill Him, but not in regard to Him saying Who He said He is. Or I mean that while He was here in the flesh, of course the Father in Heaven is Greater, as then He took on "flesh" for our sake. Taking on the flesh means He had to fight temptations as we do humanly. Which just goes to show the length of His love also.

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but He said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Philippians 2:7-15

7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Which again, those verses show His Divinity, as He "was made in the likeness of men" and in the form of a servant. Why? For us, because He loves us. (What was He made "from" in order to be make into the "likeness of men" ?)


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[AllieBaba]

Seems a lot of the cites for Jesus' divinity come from Gospel of John. That made me do a little more research on the whole subject of Arianism and the belief that jesus wasn't eternal but a created being. Lo and behold, I founfd the passage FROM JOHN in which jesus himself claims, as the Arians do, that he was less than the Father.

John 14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."[3]

The first reference to the divinity of Christ is in Genesis.

 

[konradv]

Seems a lot of the cites for Jesus' divinity come from Gospel of John. That made me do a little more research on the whole subject of Arianism and the belief that jesus wasn't eternal but a created being. Lo and behold, I founfd the passage FROM JOHN in which jesus himself claims, as the Arians do, that he was less than the Father.

John 14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."[3]

The first reference to the divinity of Christ is in Genesis.

And you know the gospels weren't written to fulfill the prophecies, how? A reference would have been nice. Which passage?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Seems a lot of the cites for Jesus' divinity come from Gospel of John. That made me do a little more research on the whole subject of Arianism and the belief that jesus wasn't eternal but a created being. Lo and behold, I founfd the passage FROM JOHN in which jesus himself claims, as the Arians do, that he was less than the Father.

John 14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."[3]

The first reference to the divinity of Christ is in Genesis.

And you know the gospels weren't written to fulfill the prophecies, how? A reference would have been nice. Which passage?

n the Old Testament Christ is revealed as the coming God-man, having a most excellent character, about whom all the Law, the Psalms and the Prophets speak, as He himself affirmed (Luke 24:27; John 5:46). In a very real sense, the Old Testament is full of Christ, though oftentimes in a veiled form. But with the full light of the New Testament, by His appearing, then we can read the Old Testament and cannot but be impressed and edified as we see Him there depicted in all His richness. Though the Son was incarnated at least 4,000 years after the Fall, yet all of God's elect knew about Him, trusted in Him, endured reproach for His sake (Hebrews 11:25,26), looked forward for His day (John 8:56), and were justified by Him just as the New Testament saints are (Romans 4:24,25). God's people throughout the ages were dependent on the promised Messiah.

Gen. 21:17,18;31:11
Gen. 16:7,9,10,11; 22:11,12(3),15,16(3),17(2),18)
Gen. 22: 18; 24:7, 40;6:8; 4:14; 19:13; 32:30; 33:10
Gen. 3:26; 12:8; 13:4; 16:13; 21:33; 26:25
Gen. 3:8; 4:16; 49:18; Gen. 3:8,10; 22:18; 26:5
Gen. 15:1,7; 17:1; 26:24(2); 28:13,15; 35:11; 46:3
Gen. 22:8; Gen. 18:1,3,10(2),13,14; Gen. 32:24
Gen. 34:29(2); 3:15; 13:15: 21:12; Gen. 49:24
Gen. 49:24; Gen. 18:2(3),4,5(6),8(3),9,16; 15:1,4

 

[ABikerSailor]

The first reference to the divinity of Christ is in Genesis.

And you know the gospels weren't written to fulfill the prophecies, how? A reference would have been nice. Which passage?

n the Old Testament Christ is revealed as the coming God-man, having a most excellent character, about whom all the Law, the Psalms and the Prophets speak, as He himself affirmed (Luke 24:27; John 5:46). In a very real sense, the Old Testament is full of Christ, though oftentimes in a veiled form. But with the full light of the New Testament, by His appearing, then we can read the Old Testament and cannot but be impressed and edified as we see Him there depicted in all His richness. Though the Son was incarnated at least 4,000 years after the Fall, yet all of God's elect knew about Him, trusted in Him, endured reproach for His sake (Hebrews 11:25,26), looked forward for His day (John 8:56), and were justified by Him just as the New Testament saints are (Romans 4:24,25). God's people throughout the ages were dependent on the promised Messiah.

Gen. 21:17,18;31:11
Gen. 16:7,9,10,11; 22:11,12(3),15,16(3),17(2),18)
Gen. 22: 18; 24:7, 40;6:8; 4:14; 19:13; 32:30; 33:10
Gen. 3:26; 12:8; 13:4; 16:13; 21:33; 26:25
Gen. 3:8; 4:16; 49:18; Gen. 3:8,10; 22:18; 26:5
Gen. 15:1,7; 17:1; 26:24(2); 28:13,15; 35:11; 46:3
Gen. 22:8; Gen. 18:1,3,10(2),13,14; Gen. 32:24
Gen. 34:29(2); 3:15; 13:15: 21:12; Gen. 49:24
Gen. 49:24; Gen. 18:2(3),4,5(6),8(3),9,16; 15:1,4

Interestingly enough, when the KJV came out, many parts of the OT were edited out, in fact, about half of the Book of Daniel never made it.

I also think that if you REALLY want to understand the OT, you need to read (or be taught by a Talmudic scholar) to get the full meaning. If you have God's Learning Channel on your cable system, check out a show on there called "Hidden in the Hebrew" with Uri Harel.

Like I've said before, the OT was translated from Hebrew to Greek (check up on the Septuegent sometime), and then from Greek to Latin, and finally, from Latin to English.

Waaaay to big of a game of telephone to give it any credibility.

By the way, did you know that when HaShem (God) told Abraham to take his son up the mountain and sacrifice him, HaShem actually asked him nicely and said "please"?

 

[AllieBaba]

Seems a lot of the cites for Jesus' divinity come from Gospel of John. That made me do a little more research on the whole subject of Arianism and the belief that jesus wasn't eternal but a created being. Lo and behold, I founfd the passage FROM JOHN in which jesus himself claims, as the Arians do, that he was less than the Father.

John 14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."[3]

The first reference to the divinity of Christ is in Genesis.

And you know the gospels weren't written to fulfill the prophecies, how? A reference would have been nice. Which passage?

Because I have faith in the accuracy of the bible..and because the gospels were being preached when people were alive who were alive during Christ's life...and NOBODY questioned their veracity at the time. Also because the existence of Christ and the performance of miracles were corroborated by Josephus.

 

[ABikerSailor]

The first reference to the divinity of Christ is in Genesis.

And you know the gospels weren't written to fulfill the prophecies, how? A reference would have been nice. Which passage?

Because I have faith in the accuracy of the bible..and because the gospels were being preached when people were alive who were alive during Christ's life...and NOBODY questioned their veracity at the time. Also because the existence of Christ and the performance of miracles were corroborated by Josephus.

Really? You think that the Bible in it's current version (KJV) es accurate?

You do realize that they translated it over 4 different times, right?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

And you know the gospels weren't written to fulfill the prophecies, how? A reference would have been nice. Which passage?

n the Old Testament Christ is revealed as the coming God-man, having a most excellent character, about whom all the Law, the Psalms and the Prophets speak, as He himself affirmed (Luke 24:27; John 5:46). In a very real sense, the Old Testament is full of Christ, though oftentimes in a veiled form. But with the full light of the New Testament, by His appearing, then we can read the Old Testament and cannot but be impressed and edified as we see Him there depicted in all His richness. Though the Son was incarnated at least 4,000 years after the Fall, yet all of God's elect knew about Him, trusted in Him, endured reproach for His sake (Hebrews 11:25,26), looked forward for His day (John 8:56), and were justified by Him just as the New Testament saints are (Romans 4:24,25). God's people throughout the ages were dependent on the promised Messiah.

Gen. 21:17,18;31:11
Gen. 16:7,9,10,11; 22:11,12(3),15,16(3),17(2),18)
Gen. 22: 18; 24:7, 40;6:8; 4:14; 19:13; 32:30; 33:10
Gen. 3:26; 12:8; 13:4; 16:13; 21:33; 26:25
Gen. 3:8; 4:16; 49:18; Gen. 3:8,10; 22:18; 26:5
Gen. 15:1,7; 17:1; 26:24(2); 28:13,15; 35:11; 46:3
Gen. 22:8; Gen. 18:1,3,10(2),13,14; Gen. 32:24
Gen. 34:29(2); 3:15; 13:15: 21:12; Gen. 49:24
Gen. 49:24; Gen. 18:2(3),4,5(6),8(3),9,16; 15:1,4

Interestingly enough, when the KJV came out, many parts of the OT were edited out, in fact, about half of the Book of Daniel never made it.

I also think that if you REALLY want to understand the OT, you need to read (or be taught by a Talmudic scholar) to get the full meaning. If you have God's Learning Channel on your cable system, check out a show on there called "Hidden in the Hebrew" with Uri Harel.

Like I've said before, the OT was translated from Hebrew to Greek (check up on the Septuegent sometime), and then from Greek to Latin, and finally, from Latin to English.

Waaaay to big of a game of telephone to give it any credibility.

By the way, did you know that when HaShem (God) told Abraham to take his son up the mountain and sacrifice him, HaShem actually asked him nicely and said "please"?

Nothing you stated refutes the facts I've laid out.