Does God want you to be Rich?

[CharlestonChad]

Communism seeks to make everyone the same through wealth reapportionment, Jesus was talking about charity. No link to communism in the sermon.

Would it not be charitable for a person with wealth to give their excess to those without wealth?


Remember, this is an idea, not a reality so imagine that everyone works hard for their money.

 

[musicman]

Would it not be charitable for a person with wealth to give their excess to those without wealth?

And who determines what, exactly, constitutes "excess"? And if "excess" is determined to be anything above mere survival, why should the person who created this wealth ever again work any harder or smarter than anyone else? Remember, this is reality, so we don't automatically assume that he made his wealth on the backs of the oppressed.

 

[manu1959]

Does God want you to be Rich?

i say NO!

i think god likes Rich just the way she made him.

 

[CharlestonChad]

God encourages us to be generous with our wealth. Communism encourages us to be generous with everyone else's wealth.

What's different from the priciple of communism and communion?

 

[CharlestonChad]

And who determines what, exactly, constitutes "excess"? And if "excess" is determined to be anything above mere survival, why should the person who created this wealth ever again work any harder or smarter than anyone else? Remember, this is reality, so we don't automatically assume that he made his wealth on the backs of the oppressed.

Sorry, but we've already defined this ideas as not pertaining to reality. We're discussing the concept of communism, not the realities of communism.

 

[Bullypulpit]

In three of the Gospels, Jesus warns that each of his disciples may have to "deny himself" and even "take up his Cross."

In support of this prediction, he contrasts the fleeting pleasures of today with the promise of eternity: "For what profit is it to a man," he asks, "if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?"

Generations of churchgoers have understood that being Christian means being ready to sacrifice. But for a growing number of Christians, the question is better restated, "Why not gain the whole world plus my soul?"

For several decades, a philosophy has been percolating in the 10 million-strong Pentecostal wing of Christianity that seems to turn the Gospels' passage on its head. Certainly, it allows, Christians should keep one eye on heaven. But the new good news is that God doesn't want us to wait.

Known (or vilified) under a variety of names -- Word of Faith, Health and Wealth, Name It and Claim It, Prosperity Theology -- its emphasis is on God's promised generosity in this life. In a nutshell, it suggests that a God who loves you does not want you to be broke.

Its signature verse could be John 10 "I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly." In a Time poll, 17 percent of Christians surveyed said they considered themselves part of such a movement, while a full 61 percent believed that God wants people to be prosperous.

"Prosperity" first blazed to public attention as the driveshaft in the moneymaking machine that was 1980s televangelism and faded from mainstream view with the Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart scandals.

But now, after some key modifications (which have inspired some to redub it Prosperity Lite), it has not only recovered but is booming.

Of the four biggest megachurches in the country, three -- Joel Osteen's Lakewood in Houston; T.D. Jakes' Potter's House in south Dallas; and Creflo Dollar's World Changers in Atlanta -- are Prosperity or Prosperity Lite pulpits (although Jakes' ministry has many more facets).

While they don't exclusively teach that God's riches want to be in believers' wallets, it is a key part of their doctrine.

And propelled by Osteen's 4 million-selling book, Your Best Life Now, the belief has swept beyond its Pentecostal base into more buttoned-down evangelical churches, and even into congregations in the more liberal Mainline. It is taught in hundreds of non-Pentecostal Bible studies. One Pennsylvania Lutheran pastor even made it the basis for a sermon series for Lent, when Christians usually meditate on why Jesus was having His Worst Life Then.

The movement's renaissance has infuriated a number of prominent pastors, theologians and commentators. Fellow megapastor Rick Warren, whose book The Purpose Driven Life has outsold Osteen's by a ratio of 7 to 1, finds the very basis of Prosperity laughable. "This idea that God wants everybody to be wealthy?" he snorts. "There is a word for that: baloney. It's creating a false idol. You don't measure your self-worth by your net worth. I can show you millions of faithful followers of Christ who live in poverty. Why isn't everyone in the church a millionaire?"

The brickbats -- both theological and practical (who really gets rich from this?) --come especially thick from Evangelicals like Warren. Evangelicalism is more prominent and influential than ever before. Yet the movement, which has never had a robust theology of money, finds an aggressive philosophy advancing within its ranks that many of its leaders regard as simplistic, possibly heretical and certainly embarrassing.

Prosperity's defenders claim to be able to match their critics chapter and verse. They caution against broad-brushing a wide spectrum that ranges from pastors who crassly solicit sky's-the-limit financial offerings from their congregations to those whose services tend more toward God-fueled self-help.

Advocates note Prosperity's racial diversity -- a welcome exception to the American norm -- and point out that some Prosperity churches engage in significant charity. And they see in it a happy corrective for Christians who are more used to being chastened for their sins than celebrated as God's children.

"Who would want to get in on something where you're miserable, poor, broke and ugly and you just have to muddle through until you get to heaven?" asks Joyce Meyer, a popular television preacher and author often lumped in the Prosperity Lite camp. "I believe God wants to give us nice things."

If nothing else, Meyer and other new-breed preachers broach a neglected topic that should really be a staple of Sunday messages: Does God want you to be rich?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/10/time.cover.tm/index.html

Prosperity theology and its advocates...Which do they serve? God or Mammon? One cannot serve two masters. My bet, however, is on Mammon.

 

[OCA]

It is a great idea. Idea is the key word.

Its a horrible idea which is why it has failed everywhere it has been implemented.

You think a system that forces everyone to be the same by reapportioning wealth from achievers to non-achievers and encourages mediocrity is a good idea?

There will always be achievers and non-achievers in life, its human nature, its not up to the achievers to make sure the non-achievers are brought up to speed.

 

[OCA]

Would it not be charitable for a person with wealth to give their excess to those without wealth?


Remember, this is an idea, not a reality so imagine that everyone works hard for their money.

No, you are encouraging laziness or mediocrity when you do that.

You cannot discuss thisd has an idea without factoring in the human element and not all humans are hardworking, in fact many are downright lazy slobs. Is it up to the achiever to help the non-achiever? No.

 

[OCA]

Sorry, but we've already defined this ideas as not pertaining to reality. We're discussing the concept of communism, not the realities of communism.

We don't deal in fantasy here, the realities are well known. We will discuss the reality here.

 

[musicman]

Sorry, but we've already defined this ideas as not pertaining to reality. We're discussing the concept of communism, not the realities of communism.

Thanks for clearing that up for me, Chad.

Why don't you take a crack at answering my question anyway, though? "Concepts not pertaining to reality" have a way of BECOMING reality - as hundreds of millions of victims of this particular pipe dream have learned to their excruciating cost. I'd really be interested in hearing your explanation.

 

[Joz]

Prosperity theology and its advocates...Which do they serve? God or Mammon? One cannot serve two masters. My bet, however, is on Mammon.

What do you use as a standard of measure?
Nothing is this world operates without money, even for the basics of food & clothing. Churches are no different.

 

[Nienna]

Money and Christianity - This is a big issue among many that turned me off of Christianity. If preachers really believed in what they preach, why do they commit so many gross atrocities? Read about Robert Tilton and Jim Baker to name just a couple. Also see:

http://www.rickross.com/groups/tv_preachers.html

I understand that no one is perfect but I’m not talking about your average Joe. These are supposedly devout knowledgeable Christians who firmly believe in salvation – life after death – eternal peace – etc. and they do things like this.

Christianity is not about Christians... It's about CHRIST.

 

[Nienna]

God DOES want us to be "prosperous," including financial comfort. But this isn't the most important thing He wants from us. If wealth gets in the way of our relationship with Him (and it often WILL), He might just take it away.

 

[CharlestonChad]

We don't deal in fantasy here, the realities are well known. We will discuss the reality here.

I'm sorry that neither you nor musicman can understand the difference between conceptual ideas and reality.

 

[Nienna]

I'm sorry that neither you nor musicman can understand the difference between conceptual ideas and reality.

What's the point of HAVING concepts if they are not implemented?

 

[OCA]

I'm sorry that neither you nor musicman can understand the difference between conceptual ideas and reality.

Conceptually it is flawed.

 

[dmp]

I'm sorry that neither you nor musicman can understand the difference between conceptual ideas and reality.

I'm sorry you refuse to understand it's the reality of communism which makes the conceptual ideas of Communism invalid.

 

[GeeWhiz]

Look how this thread broke down into how God created the whole universe for no other reason than to establish capitalism and money. How anti climatic if your God only wants you to be toaster buyers and toaster makers.

The problem is one of interpretation. You religious people whore out your belief system for no other purpose than to legitimize your ideologies ie Capitalism.

Your society that can:

Accept a Savior King as its deity and still be democratic politically

subscribe to other-worldly virtues of Christianity and simultaneously be capitalistic

wait expectantly, even eagerly, for the imminent return of King Jesus while pouring billions of dollars into nation building ie Iraq and the whole ME, thus planning for a distant future

is a society that can entertain a jumble of exceedingly diverse ideas and not perceive these to be incongruous when juxtaposed.

That fact that your God created matter already makes him pathetic

 

[dmp]

Look how this thread broke down into how God created the whole universe for no other reason than to establish capitalism and money.

Look how there's always ONE guy in a thread who doesn't have a FUCKING CLUE what the thread is about, yet that won't stop him/her from proclaiming judgement on a thread topic.


[edit]

Oh...and one more thing:

 

[Bullypulpit]

What do you use as a standard of measure?
Nothing is this world operates without money, even for the basics of food & clothing. Churches are no different.

They are when the pastors leading these money machines live in multi-million dollar mansions...Have fled to the suburbs, abandoning ministering to the needs of inner-city residents...Have become nothing more than polite social clubs and cults of personality.