Do you think paying teachers extra for increasing test scores from one year from the

[rosends]

You are clearly not qualified to tell me or anyone else anything about English.

to be told that I'm unqualified by an uninformed ignoramus? i'll wear that badge with pride.

There is nothing to be proud of in the way you have presented yourself here. You have presented the image of a lazy, semi-literate buffoon who encourages mediocrity and excuses failure in himself and others. What a champion.

with each response which accuses me of this you reveal even less and less skill at reading and drawing conclusions. you long ago lost track of what this thread was supposed to be and the argument that was being made. you have responded out of emotion and without any grounding in the real world and actual relevant experience or scholarship. that's all your choice but i figured you might want to know how you come off. it is heartening to know that the ideas i espouse and endorse and the work that real teachers do is unaffected by the ignorance of the anonymous forum posters out here and their rants.

now i'm going to go back to grading papers and prepping classes. you can have whatever last word you want. it would be nice if it was at all related to the topic at hand or showed any actual knowledge. i don't hold out any hope.

while i work, you can read this http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19099-2004Sep13.html

 

[Unkotare]

you have responded out of emotion and without any grounding in the real world and actual relevant experience or scholarship.

You keep hoping that's true, but it is not. Your false assumptions about "experience or scholarship" are illogical, and suggest a deep insecurity.

 

[blimpo]

You two need to get a room and take this off the street....

 

[oldfart]

Wow, this might be a first--A thread and comments (for the most part) that actually deal with real education issues instead of the liberal, commie, Nazi, right-wing, left-wing, indocrination, brainwashing, crap that usually pops up.

Well, we've seen how long that lasted. So let me threadjack this thread back to its original topic and comment on your points.

1. My state has started to put this in motion without making any allowances for where this money will originate. Thus, merit pay is a pipe dream.

What many teachers and teacher organizations fear is that in practice merit pay will become a vehicle to lower teacher pay (or at least increases) overall. If you fund merit pay out of the COLA increase, "good" teachers tend to end up where they would be anyway, "poor or average" teachers would see declines in real pay, and labor costs for the district would be lowered.

2. Merit pay is considered practical at the elementary level with self-contained classrooms, but no plan I know of has been successfully worked out where students have different teachers for different subjects. How will teachers be rated in subject areas that are not tested?

Theoretically most subjects in middle school and high school can be evaluated through nationally standardized subject area tests. So if you teach ninth-grade algebra, you could be evaluated on the basis of your student's scores on a ninth-grade algebra test. Theoretically.

3. Unless a starting point is used to see progress gained from the start of the year to the end using the same kids with the same variables none of this is a valid working study. If this is not used, one teacher could be "stuck" with the majority of low learners and labeled failing while another gets the "cream of the crop" and comes out smelling like a rose. The best teacher might not receive the merit pay. That will go to the one that 'sucks up' the best to the counselor or principal that assigns students. Also, unless this start and end of year assessment is used, who would be willing to sacrifice their career teaching in schools in low-performing areas?

Amen.

4. Competition among teachers in one building is not really a great thing. If a teacher comes up with or uses a method that gets results they are not going to share it and possibly lose merit pay to another teacher that adopts this method. Colaboration which can improve teaching won't exist.

I don't think that teachers would "hoard" good teaching techniques, but you are right to worry about perverse incentives.

6. Lastly, teachers are human. Basing teacher pay on test performance will create an extreme bitterness toward the students that don't put forth any effort to pass the tests or don't have the ability to pass. These students will have a direct affect on teacher pay making some teachers resentful.

Amen again.

The best research I have seen indicates that the most important factor in student performance BY FAR (greatly overwhelming all in-school factors) is the educational and socio-economic background of the family and community the student is embedded in. This does not mean we should give up on students, it means we should be aware of these factors and design programs to counteract them. For example, if safety is a problem after school for latchkey kids, maybe the schools need more supervised and safe study programs after school.

The greatest in-school factor is the understanding of the subject material that the teacher has and the commitment to teaching. We have too many football coaches teaching history when they don't care about history and a large part of what they know is wrong.

None of this is going to be improved with merit pay. On the contrary, merit pay is likely to have perverse incentives and reduce effective learning.

There is also a huge measurement problem, which is probably insoluble. The dirty little secret is that when teacher evaluations based on student performance have been tried the results are not statistically reliable. A teacher can be teacher of the year one year and in the bottom quartile the next. Until someone comes up with a statistically valid and reliable instrument for measuring teacher performance, I don't see how merit pay can accomplish anything good.

 

[rosends]

An interesting recent opinion piece with some information about the potential downside of rewarding teachers of students with strong test scores

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/15/opinion/want-to-ruin-teaching-give-ratings.html?_r=1&

 

[IanC]

Closing the Racial Learning Gap

this is the recipe of how to close the racial gap. at least for a few years

 

[rosends]

some more interesting reading about using value added to evaluate teachers (via the Marshall Memo)

“‘Value Added’ Use at Secondary Level Questioned” by Stephen Sawchuk in Education Week, Oct. 24, 2012 (Vol. 32, #9, p. 6); the studies in question are:

• “Bias in Public Sector Worker Performance Monitoring: Theory and Empirical Evidence from Middle School Teachers” by Douglas Harris and Andrew Anderson;

• “Teacher Quality at the High School Level: The Importance of Accounting for Tracks” by Kirabo Jackson; http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2012/10/24/09tracking_ep.h32.html

and there was a fascinating article I saw this morning about math anxiety
Math Can Genuinely Make People

 

[Katzndogz]

Rewarding teachers for correctly doing their jobs is like paying mechanics extra for putting on brakes that will really stop the car.

 

[Moonglow]

Do you think paying teachers extra for increasing test scores from one year from the next is a good idea? Maybe some other reforms like within the innercities we can link welfare to a parent's willingness to help their children. Home work, etc. I think we should also allow choices for people to choose either Public education to money or private schools, ect. Why not?

Another idea for the innercities is classes for teaching the "basic concepts of working hard to being a good father". This would allow for the next generation to improve greatly.

If the students got paid by their scores, they would have better grades and money to blow.