Do you think everybody should believe in God or a higher power?

[alan1]

That question is for RodISHI.

For the purpose of this thread, I would like to discuss god and religion with RodISHI only. I respectfully ask that everybody else please let this discussion/debate occur and develop between RodISHI and I. The moderating team has told me they don't have the time to keep the rest of you from getting involved, so please do it as a favor to us.

RodISHI,
Do you think everybody should believe in God or a higher power?

 

[RodISHI]

I do believe that everyone born of the spirit of God does believe. It would be nice if all those who live in flesh would believe.

 

[alan1]

Since I don't believe, does that mean I am not born of the spirit of god in your opinion?

 

[RodISHI]

Since I don't believe, does that mean I am not born of the spirit of god in your opinion?

Not exactly. Many sleep in the dust of the earth. You may be asleep and unaware. Some are blinded to fill God's purpose. Others are blinded in their own stubborn pride or sin. God knows your heart.

 

[alan1]

Since I don't believe, does that mean I am not born of the spirit of god in your opinion?

Not exactly. Many sleep in the dust of the earth. You may be asleep and unaware. Some are blinded to fill God's purpose. Others are blinded in their own stubborn pride or sin. God knows your heart.

I don't think that disbelief means I am stubborn, asleep, blinded or in sin. It's an analysis I have made and I have determined in my mind that god (or gods) don't exist. Since I don't believe in a god, I also have no use for religion in my life.

 

[RodISHI]

Since I don't believe, does that mean I am not born of the spirit of god in your opinion?

Not exactly. Many sleep in the dust of the earth. You may be asleep and unaware. Some are blinded to fill God's purpose. Others are blinded in their own stubborn pride or sin. God knows your heart.

I don't think that disbelief means I am stubborn, asleep, blinded or in sin. It's an analysis I have made and I have determined in my mind that god (or gods) don't exist. Since I don't believe in a god, I also have no use for religion in my life.

I can understand that you have thought this all out in your own mind and I do understand that you may think that a way. I would still attribute that to pride or a vanity you may have. You made the analysis for yourself as you say. Is not that a bit prideful?

Can't say I have much use for a lot of religion myself. There is a big difference between religion and faith or belief.

 

[alan1]

I can understand that you have thought this all out in your own mind and I do understand that you may think that a way. I would still attribute that to pride or a vanity you may have. You made the analysis for yourself as you say. Is not that a bit prideful?

No more prideful or sinful than you saying you accepted god. You could attribute your decision to god, but then, you should attribute my decision to god as well, if he is powerful enough to influence you, then he must have influenced my decision also.

Can't say I have much use for a lot of religion myself. There is a big difference between religion and faith or belief.

There is. I'll give you that one.

 

[RodISHI]

I can understand that you have thought this all out in your own mind and I do understand that you may think that a way. I would still attribute that to pride or a vanity you may have. You made the analysis for yourself as you say. Is not that a bit prideful?

No more prideful or sinful than you saying you accepted god.

Accepting God as a prideful mannerism is possibly your perception. Maybe you can explain that one better for I can understand where your coming from there?

I can't see that acceptance of a belief is a prideful thing in as much as an acceptance to believing that there is such a thing as a spirit of God. The spirit of God is something more than mere flesh can explain or conceive. One must actually be humble themselves before God.

Sinful is the nature of a flesh being so I cannot deny that my flesh has not sinned yet to have a belief in God is not a sin so I cannot see your point. If I boast of that which I have been afforded then you may have a point of that being a sin. Then again if I boast I hope it will be of the grace given to me this lowly being that I am living in this state as a flesh being.

You could attribute your decision to god, but then, you should attribute my decision to god as well, if he is powerful enough to influence you, then he must have influenced my decision also.

I do agree with you. It is only God that can lift that veil. He keeps that part within a man/woman that He put there. The soul does not belong to the flesh being. When we deny God He allows that veil to remain in place.

As a parent sometimes you have to let your children make their own decisions even when you know they will not enjoy the experience. You can warn them but that does not mean they will heed that warning. Sometimes no matter how much as parents we would like to step in and make them see for they will not get hurt we still have to stand back and watch. You can hope your children once out on their own will make the right choices but you cannot make their decisions for them. Sometimes it is like taking that beating in order to show who the true bully is.

Can't say I have much use for a lot of religion myself. There is a big difference between religion and faith or belief.

There is. I'll give you that one.

 

[alan1]

I am merely saying that my decision was arrived at no differently than yours was.
I would say that we both used information available to us to arrive at our respective decisions. Just because mine is different than yours makes it no more or less prideful or sinful.
I am not sure what exactly your chosen god is, but I would ask you, would it make a difference to you if I did believe in a god that was foreign to you? For instance, if were to believe ENKI was my god, would that be less prideful/sinful of me?

I can understand your analogy about parents/children, as mine have left the nest and are out on their own at this time. Yet, while I understand it, I disagree with the premise. I don't see some all powerful god dishing out reward or punishment in his final judgment of my life to be very believable. What I do see is the concept of an all powerful god passing final judgment on people being a means of control. A way to get people to "behave" for lack of a better term. Throughout humankind existence, gods have always been beneficial to societies at large but that doesn't mean god exists. It doesn't mean that everybody needs a god to worship.

 

[RodISHI]

I am merely saying that my decision was arrived at no differently than yours was.

I would like to discuss more with you about this first sentence that you posted. We can address the rest of the post shortly.

Have I told you or are you aware of events which have occurred in my life which have reinforced my belief in a living God?

 

[alan1]

I am merely saying that my decision was arrived at no differently than yours was.

I would like to discuss more with you about this first sentence that you posted. We can address the rest of the post shortly.

Have I told you or are you aware of events which have occurred in my life which have reinforced my belief in a living God?

No.
You can tell me here and now though.

 

[RodISHI]

I am merely saying that my decision was arrived at no differently than yours was.

I would like to discuss more with you about this first sentence that you posted. We can address the rest of the post shortly.

Have I told you or are you aware of events which have occurred in my life which have reinforced my belief in a living God?

No.
You can tell me here and now though.

That's fair enough. I must ask you before I post anything, do you understand the difference between a dream and being in the spirit?

 

[alan1]

I would like to discuss more with you about this first sentence that you posted. We can address the rest of the post shortly.

Have I told you or are you aware of events which have occurred in my life which have reinforced my belief in a living God?

No.
You can tell me here and now though.

That's fair enough. I must ask you before I post anything, do you understand the difference between a dream and being in the spirit?

Probably not from your perspective.
I know what a dream is, I understand the concept of a spirit. One I know happens, the other I don't believe exists.

 

[RodISHI]

One I know happens, the other I don't believe exists.

Please tell me which one it is you know happens and which one is it that you don't believe exist?

 

[alan1]

One I know happens, the other I don't believe exists.

Please tell me which one it is you know happens and which one is it that you don't believe exist?

I have dreams every night.
Sometimes I have daydreams.
I know they exist.

 

[RodISHI]

I cannot detail everything that has transpired so I'll try to give you one extremely condensed event that confirmed what I had always believed. I cannot remember a time that I did not believe. I can recall being angry with God. In 1969 I had this very special friend she was over eighty years old. I was eleven at the time. I had met her when a group of kids had all gotten together to raid her yard in the little mountain town where we lived in Southern California. I was new to the area and an older neighbor girl who had befriended me took me up to Happy Jack to meet the group of kids that lived up in Happy Jack. They were all gathered in the street about a block up the hill from this cute cottage. I was trying to take it all in as Vicki introduced me and started telling me the names of all these kids. Then one said, come on let's go and they all started running. Vicki grabbed my arm and said come on follow us. I did for a second and then asked Vicki, why are we running. She said just follow me. I ask why? She said we are going to steal apples. I said what? Vicki said whatever you do don't stop and the man won't get you. I stopped dead in my tracks halfway down the hill towards the little house. All the kids kept running and I stood there and watched them as they ran into to the yard and then ran back out. Nine or ten kids came running back out the yard two or three had apples. A man came running out from a smaller house in the back yard with a broom in his hands. He was yelling I'm going to get you at the kids and they were laughing at him from the road.

I was still standing frozen in the road watching this whole thing transpire.All of the other kids took off. The man with the broom went back into the house in the back. Vicki came walking back to where I was standing and asked why did you stop? I asked her why are you stealing I don't understand? She said because there is a witch in that house (the cottage) and we like to see the crazy man come out of his house screaming and we like the apples. I asked her have you ever just ask the people if you could have an apple off their trees. She told me no. I said well let's just go knock on the door and ask. I started walking toward the cottage and Vicki started following me. She said those people are crazy. I asked her have you ever talked to them? She said no. I said well let's just knock on the door and meet them. (I wanted to see the witch that lived there) Vicki told me she was scared. I told her I'm not and proceeded toward the cottage. Vicki says but what about the crazy man? I said well if he comes out with that broom we'll run. Walk up the sidewalk to the door of the cottage and I reached out and knocked on the door. All the time prepared to run for my life. The door opened inward and this beautiful little old lady with snow white hair and bright blue eyes was standing there. She said may I help you? I told her we were wondering if we could have some apples off of her trees. She said yes you can but please do not take them all. Then she introduced herself and told me her name was Mimi and asked what's your name? I told her and this my friend Vicki. She told us she was glad to meet us and asked if we would like to come in and have some apple pie with her. She said they were waiting for them to get out of the oven. I'm thinking about Hansel and Gretel and my mind is going weird places. I looked at Vicki and asked her, what do you think? She hadn't said much to this point. I think she was in shock. She was not at all prepared for this beautiful lady to invite us into her house. The woman was short and you could see she was older but she was still very beautiful to look at. We had pie with Mimi and met her husband. She told us about Carl the handicapped man that lived in the caretakers house out back and how she feared for the children that teased him. She was concerned for the children's safety as Carl was not stable and they were not sure he would always stop at their gate. When we left to come home Mimi asked if we would please come back to see her again.

I spent the whole summer visiting my dear new friend Mimi every chance I got. We talked about Jesus and God. She told me to be strong and taught me as much as she could that year about life. One day about six or seven months later I went to see my dear friend and she told me she had to go away. She said she had to move back to Malibu because her health was failing. I cried and cried and she pleaded with me not to be upset and told me people get old and their bodies fail. I stayed with her as long as I could that day as she would not be back. When I left her house I walked down to the creek and walked the creek all the way down to where our house was.(several miles). I kicked the water as hard as I could all the way home and screamed this is not fair. I was mad at God and I asked Him why do you let good people die? I don't care about bad people but why do you let good people die? And I cried. The tears flowed like you cannot imagine, MountainMan. Here I was eleven years old calling God out and demanding an answer. I would forget that day until 1981.

 

[RodISHI]

In 1981 I met a man. It was very unexpected. I heard this guy yell at me from down the street. I had just slid out of my pickup too weak to really be out and about. I had just gotten out of the hospital the week before. I was walking across a four lane road in a town I had never been in before and here this stranger was yelling at me from almost a block away. Hey lady!!! I thought to myself God do I have to be nice to assholes. Having no clue as to what was about to happen. I reached the edge of the sidewalk at the same time that this guy had yelled at me did. He stood at the curb on the sidewalk and I was down on the pavement. The curb seemed very high to me. The guy reached out his hand and said I just want to talk to you. I accepted his hand as I was pretty unsteady and weak. He said again I just want to talk to you. You may think I'm crazy but God showed you to me in a dream. The moment our hands touched I recalled my friend Mimi. I remembered that same exact feeling I had when I was a little girl and Mimi had reached out her hand to mine and our hands touched. It was a feeling that is hard to describe. I felt a gentleness, peace and love that I had not felt since meeting Mimi. All I could think about was my friend. The guy was explaining to me that he was not crazy and he was not wanting anything other than to talk to me and share with me his dream from God. He was afraid I would not believe him or I'd think he was a nutcase. I did not doubt what he said. I'd had some pretty real dreams myself. Most recently shortly before I had gone into the hospital. I had given up on life at that point and had not gone to the hospital for almost a week. I had chicken pox and pneumonia. the pox had gone into my lungs, intestines, liver, everything was covered with pox inside and out. I had wanted nothing more than to be able to take care of my children and I was a failure. I never believed in taking drugs. I rarely drank either. I had left home shortly after losing my friend Mimi. I was married at fifteen and divorced with two babes at eighteen.

This guy that wanted to talk to me was not hitting on me like most usually did. I believed what he said. Fact I had no doubt what he saw was real. He saw a me lying on my back, my eyes were closed, he saw the long dark hair and though I was dead he knew I was sleeping. (I had died the week before for a short period of time). He told me that God had brought him to see me and that I was very important to God and that God loved me very much. He told me he was close enough to me he could have touched me with his lips however he was not allowed to touch me. He knew I was sleeping and I did not know he was there. He told me about what he saw and I had never met this guy before. He would have no way of knowing I was at deaths door the week before. He knew things about me and there was no reasonable explanation for him to know anything about me. I did not doubt anything he said. We talked into the night. It was like I had just met my best friend even though I had never seen him before.

It was a reminder that day of many other things I had thought were weird I had not considered God in that mix. I thought about the lady that had visited me a few years before that gave me a message. She a customer in a restaurant where I had gone to work. She told me to not take shit from anyone she was rich and had always wanted a daughter. She offered to give her riches to my children and I if I would let her take care of us and my children would be her grandchildren. She said that she lived in Aspen, Colorado in a huge house that needed children. Her sister confirmed she was not kidding as I chuckled at the thought. She was a nice lady and I watched her and her sister leave the restaurant. I thought I saw what appeared to be light sparkles around her and her sister's head as they walked down the foyer to leave. I decided I was just being weird again.
The next day at my job there was a confrontation with the manager of the restaurant where I worked. The manager had given me assurances that I would be working at a minimum of three days a week yet I was not on the schedule three days of the next week. When I asked him about it he said, your problems are not my problems now get to work. I looked at him and said you gave me your word when I went to work here. He repeated the your problems are not my problems again. I told him fine I quit. He said you can't quit. I had to think about it for a moment (it was the first job for someone besides family I'd ever had) I said no i quit. The guy started panicking and said you can't quit i don't have anyone else to work tonight. I stood firm and told him his own words that his problems were not my problems. Then he said you aren't leaving here with my uniform. That one stumped me for a moment. I told him I'd bring it back the next day. He said no! You are not leaving this building with my uniform on now get back to work! I considered my situation for a moment. I had no slip on only a bra and panties under my uniform and no coat. I had let the guy I was going with take my pickup and I had no car to get home in. I decided i wold not be blackmailed from this asshole. I told him if you insist and I started zipping the front zipper down. I was watching the guy's face and he was staring. About the time cleavage was started to show pretty good the guy yelled stop!! Take the uniform and bring it back tomorrow. I walked out of the restaurant and tried not to stumble. I got to the phone booth in the hall and I called my boyfriend's house, no answer. I was shaking like crazy and had no way to get home but walk. It was the dead of winter in southern Idaho and freezing outside. I just wanted to get away from there as quickly as possible so i walked outside. Two men were under the canopy and unloading their suitcases from the trunk of a car. I was wiping away tears as I walk out of the place and scared not knowing what would come next. The guys asked me if I was okay and it spooked me. The day before the ladies had came a guy had been in the restaurant insisting that I give him my phone number and he became very hostile when I wouldn't. I made my way through the cars in the parking lot and walked to the sidewalk near the highway. Guys started whistling and cat calling. I started crying and in my mind I thought you worthless dumb thing. You had a job and you screwed it up. You're hopeless. And then I recalled the ladies from the day before. I remembered all the kind words. I blanked out the horn blowing and the cat calls and walked on through the ice cold toward home five miles away.

I look back through all those years and many more things that transpired. The connections were all there each and every time I had opted to give up yet something special happened. I think about the feelings I have had in each time I met someone special. The same phrases and the same thoughts. I have looked back to the time my son was pronounced dead by doctors and I think of my prayers and how he was a miracle the day he walked with me out of the hospital. Today he is a strapping young man with his own son and a beautiful wife. I look at the miracle of life and know each day how blessed I am.

I know it is not always the same for everyone and each person walks a different path. However I also know that the path of faith leads to the same destination. Because we can't reach out and touch God like we would another person we begin to doubt his presence. If we doubt His presence long enough we will doubt His very existence. then he has to do something to remind us that He is still there. I think one of the mistakes that preachers and congregations alike make is that our reward is not here in the world. I believe that the world is where we are subjected to those things that are unholy and not of God. I also believe that we tend to subject ourselves. You must realize also that for as long as I can remember I believed in God. I did not always follow His ways but I did believe that he existed. I don't now what to say to you about that will convince you that god is real. I do know that it is not up to me to convince you. I can tell you that the battle is His. My only requirement here is to testify of Him and share what I know if asked. If one ask me and then denies I am to knock the dust off my feet and move on. God will work things in His time table. It is not us who sets the time for another. We can share, we can testify, we can celebrate, we can weep for each other, we can pray for each other. We cannot open the eyes of a non believer but we can sure pray to God that He open their eyes so they may know Him and know His joy. I would not have gone here but that you asked me in a manner which was not threatening and not over bearing. If you have doubts and you still don't believe I don't write you off anymore than God who sends me. If the good in you and the respect you've shown me is demonstrated on this thread then that stands as a testament for all and it can never be taken from you because you did not deny me before Him. Neither will I deny you before Him. And that my friend is how it works.

 

[alan1]

Ms RodISHI,
First I would like to thank you for sharing your story. I would say it's more than just a part of your life, it is a part of your heart. What you have posted above are obviously very intimate parts of your life and have had a profound influence on the person you have become.

My own journey through life has had it's good experiences and bad ones. The worst and best are intimately related yet occurred almost 18 years apart. I am not going to go into as much detail as you have on this public forum, but since they are things that many would consider perhaps guided by god I will share them.

20 years ago my sister was in Fred Hutchinson hospital in Seattle. All typical treatments for her leukemia had been tried and had failed. She was undergoing experimental treatments in a last effort to cure her. The time came when the doctor pulled the family together and told us there was nothing more that they could do. They could however keep her alive with the machines that were hooked up to her. We had to make a decision. We could have the hospital back off on life support, or we could continue to let machines keep her alive for what would probably be years. Both options were permanent and could not be undone. Once you make the decision to keep life support, it takes a court order to undo that decision.
My sister had always been an active person, surfing, sailboarding and scuba diving were her favorite things. As a family we agreed that to leave her in a hospital on life support was no quality of life for her and we opted to have the machines turned off. It was the hardest decision I have ever had to be a part of.

2.5 years ago the American Red Cross contacted me. I had been on the national bone marrow donors list since the death of my sister. They had contacted me once before for additional tissue typing tests in the late 90's but nothing had come of it. This time, they had an urgent need. I received the phone call from them at 6:00am and by 8:30 am an ambulance was at my house. I was zipped off to the airport and flown to Seattle. Yep, Fred Hutchinson hospital. It wasn't bone marrow that they wanted from me though, it was stem cells. I never met the recipient, and I don't know whether or not the person survived. It was perhaps the easiest decision I have ever had to make. At the time that this happened, I documented my entire experience, this is the first time I have ever publicly shared this.

I was not an atheist when my sister died, more like an agnostic at that time of my life. When she died, I didn't curse god, I didn't question nor blame a higher power. When I was given the opportunity to donate my stem cells to potentially save a life I was (and remain) an atheist. I didn't praise nor think god had anything to do with it. Some might think a higher power orchestrated those events or had a guiding hand in making them unfold over time. I don't think so. It just is what it is.
In general, I truly believe that humans are good and most of us don't need faith or belief in a higher power to keep us from cruelty or ambivalence towards others. Nor do we need a higher power in order for us to do things that benefit others, including others that we have never met as was my case with donating stem cells.

I don't think there is anything wrong with people having a belief or faith in a higher power. I don't feel that just because one does, it means they are weak or unintelligent or abdicating control of their personal life. I also don't think that when death comes to me I will be judged by some all powerful being and either rewarded or punished for my deeds on this earth.

 

[RodISHI]

Thanks for sharing.

 

[alan1]

I am merely saying that my decision was arrived at no differently than yours was.
I would say that we both used information available to us to arrive at our respective decisions. Just because mine is different than yours makes it no more or less prideful or sinful.
I am not sure what exactly your chosen god is, but I would ask you, would it make a difference to you if I did believe in a god that was foreign to you? For instance, if were to believe ENKI was my god, would that be less prideful/sinful of me?

I can understand your analogy about parents/children, as mine have left the nest and are out on their own at this time. Yet, while I understand it, I disagree with the premise. I don't see some all powerful god dishing out reward or punishment in his final judgment of my life to be very believable. What I do see is the concept of an all powerful god passing final judgment on people being a means of control. A way to get people to "behave" for lack of a better term. Throughout humankind existence, gods have always been beneficial to societies at large but that doesn't mean god exists. It doesn't mean that everybody needs a god to worship.

I am merely saying that my decision was arrived at no differently than yours was.

I would like to discuss more with you about this first sentence that you posted. We can address the rest of the post shortly.

Have I told you or are you aware of events which have occurred in my life which have reinforced my belief in a living God?

Ok, we addressed the first sentence. Lets carry on, give me your thoughts on the rest of the post.