Do you stand with Israel or Palestine?

[alexa]

You kiddin?

Really?

That's basically how it went down. Israel was started by terrorists.

I trust you are unaware of the lehi irgen and stern gangs and possibly much of the history.

Exactly why did you pick my post to respond to? Seems you didn't read it very well.

ha ha ha, I misunderstood you. I thought you were being sarcastic

 

[Sallow]

I trust you are unaware of the lehi irgen and stern gangs and possibly much of the history.

Exactly why did you pick my post to respond to? Seems you didn't read it very well.

ha ha ha, I misunderstood you. I thought you were being sarcastic

Nope.

Unlike conservatives..I don't manipulate history to make a point. I firmly believe that Israel should exist but I have no illusions about how that country was started..or their behavior ever since.

The Palestinian/Israeli problem is a big one..that can only be resolved if the "hurts" of all sides are taken into consideration.

 

[alexa]

Exactly why did you pick my post to respond to? Seems you didn't read it very well.

ha ha ha, I misunderstood you. I thought you were being sarcastic

Nope.

Unlike conservatives..I don't manipulate history to make a point. I firmly believe that Israel should exist but I have no illusions about how that country was started..or their behavior ever since.

The Palestinian/Israeli problem is a big one..that can only be resolved if the "hurts" of all sides are taken into consideration.

Well my apologies. I did it in the middle of cutting my oversize lawn and obviously did not pay enough attention.

The EU got the PIJ to do some conferences on how they could best help. On the question of refugees the main point made was that people needed an identity and recognition of what had happened to them, much more for most than a desire to move back. Their needed to be recognised as Palestinian citizens because that was who they were.

Palestine - Israel Journal of Politics, Economics and Culture

I believe it is past this time. Netanyahu was puffing away after his speech to congress that he had got a green light on settlements (Haaretz)

I do believe things are going to change though. After Palestine is declared a state in September she will have the opportunity to use the law to sort things out. Israel will then be under far greater pressure to change. I do not know how long it will take but I believe it is going to get sorted.

 

[sparky]

puerly from a taxpayers position, i have a Q

couldn't we have bought these folks a country by now..?

 

[alexa]

puerly from a taxpayers position, i have a Q

couldn't we have bought these folks a country by now..?

Who exactly are you wanting to buy a country for?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Where's the link? Probably some pro-palestinian propaganda site? This proves nothing...

You kiddin?

Really?

That's basically how it went down. Israel was started by terrorists.

I trust you are unaware of the lehi irgen and stern gangs and possibly much of the history.

This site I have never found to be criticised by pro Israelis

Nov 2, 1917 British issued the Balfour Declaration, viewed by Jews and Arabs as promising a “National Home” for the Jews in Palestine.
1936-1939 Arab Revolt led by Haj Amin Al-Husseini. Over 5,000 Arabs were killed according to some sources, mostly by British. Several hundred Jews were killed by Arabs. Husseini fled to Iraq and then to Nazi Germany.
May 15, 1948 Israel War of Independence (1948 War). Declaration of Israel as the Jewish State; British leave Palestine; Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia declared war on Israel. Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian invasion began. See 1948 Israel War of Independence (1948 Arab-Israeli war) Timeline (Chronology) and Israel War of Independence

Middle East Israel - Palestinian Conflict TimeLine

Note the same problem as the arab biased one. It has left out all the Jewish terrorism, though I believe that if you look into that site well enough you will find most of the story - because I have before.

Now look at their in a nutshell

History's legacy created divisive issues between Palestinians and Israelis. Judea, home of the Jews in ancient times, was conquered by the Romans and renamed Palestine. Palestine was later conquered and inhabited by Arabs for over a thousand years. The Zionist movement arose to restore the Jews to Israel, largely ignoring the existing Arab population. Following the Balfour Declaration in 1917, Palestine was granted to Britain as a League of Nations mandate to build a national home for the Jewish people. The Arabs resented the Jews coming in to take their land. Led by Grand Mufti Hajj Amin El Husseini, they rioted repeatedly and later revolted, creating a history of enmity between Jews and Arabs in Palestine. Britain stopped Jewish immigration to Palestine. Following the Holocaust, in which 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis, pressure on Britain increased to allow Jewish immigration to Palestine. In 1947, the UN partitioned the land into Arab and Jewish states. The Arabs did not accept the partition and war broke out. The Jews won a decisive victory, expanded their state and created several hundred thousand Palestinian refugees. The Arab states refused to recognize Israel or make peace with it. Wars broke out in 1956, 1967, 1973 and 1982, and there were many terror raids and Israeli reprisals. Each side believes different versions of the same history. Each side views the conflict as wholly the fault of the other and expects an apology. More about Israel and Palestine History Zionism

The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict - Issues in a Nutshell

again, although some objectivity, Jewish terrorism and it's role in the creation of Israel is left out.

I'd have to think the extent to which Israel was created by terrorism but it certainly played a major part. The British left because they found both the Arabs and Zionists ungovernable. A US/British team prior to the UN vote, recommended they not have two states as the situation at the time was that there would just be constant fighting. The recommended that no states be given until problems were resolved or it would just become a never ending battle. They were right. (You will find that if you look enough at the link above).

Anyway do searches for the Lehi, Irgin and Stern and you will find out.

Just to clarify a couple of points:

In 1947, the UN partitioned the land into Arab and Jewish states. The Arabs did not accept the partition and war broke out.

The UN General Assembly partition plan of Palestine (resolution 181) had to be approved by both sides. It was not. Resolution 181 was sent to the Security Council for approval and implementation. The vote was to not implement the plan. The UN did not partition Palestine nor did it create the state of Israel.

The Jews won a decisive victory, expanded their state...

There was no victory in the 1948 war. An armistice was called by UN Security Council resolution. According to the 1949 armistice agreements, there was no change in the borders of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, or Palestine. None of them lost any land. No land was ceded to Israel and no borders for Israel were established. Still today Israel has no borders.

 

[sparky]

the 'lost wandering tribes' i'm allegedly responsible for....

 

[Ropey]

23 people are concerned enough to vote on a robust forum such as this tells much. There's far more important things going on than a 58th Muslim country that will just kill all tolerance like all the other ones.

 

[P F Tinmore]

At the time of the creation of the Israeli state in 1948, it is estimated that the Christians of Palestine numbered some 350,000. Almost 20 percent of the total population at the time, they constituted a vibrant and ancient community; their forbears had listened to St. Peter in Jerusalem as he preached at the first Pentecost. Yet Zionist doctrine held that Palestine was “a land without a people for a people without a land.” Of the 750,000 Palestinians that were forced from their homes in 1948, some 50,000 were Christians—7 percent of the total number of refugees and 35 percent of the total number of Christians living in Palestine at the time.

In the process of “Judaizing” Palestine, numerous convents, hospices, seminaries, and churches were either destroyed or cleared of their Christian owners and custodians. In one of the most spectacular attacks on a Christian target, on May 17, 1948, the Armenian Orthodox Patriarchate was shelled with about 100 mortar rounds—launched by Zionist forces from the already occupied monastery of the Benedictine Fathers on Mount Zion. The bombardment also damaged St. Jacob’s Convent, the Archangel’s Convent, and their appended churches, their two elementary and seminary schools, as well as their libraries, killing eight people and wounding 120.

The Palestinian Christians see themselves, and are seen by their Muslim compatriots, as an integral part of the Palestinian people, and they have long been a vital part of the Palestinian struggle. As the Anglican bishop of Jerusalem, the Reverend Riah Abu al-Assal has explained, “The Arab Palestinian Christians are part and parcel of the Arab Palestinian nation. We have the same history, the same culture, the same habits and the same hopes.”

Lebanese and Syrian Christians were essential in the conception of Arab nationalism as a general school of anti-colonial thought following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire at the beginning of the 20th century. During the 1930s, Hajj Amin al-Hussein, the leader of the Palestinian struggle against the British colonialists, surrounded himself with Christian advisors and functionaries. In the 1950s and ’60s, as the various factions that were to form the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) emerged, some of the most prominent militants were yet again of Christian origin. For instance, George Habash, a Greek Orthodox medical doctor from al-Lod, created the Arab Nationalists’ Movement and went on to found the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. Naif Hawatmeh, also Greek Orthodox, from al-Salt in Jordan, founded and still today heads up the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine. Among those better regarded in the West, Hannan Ashrawi, one of the Palestinian Authority’s most effective spokespersons, is a Christian.

The American Conservative -- Forgotten Christians

 

[P F Tinmore]

A woman from Gaza: Shireen Said of the PFLP.

Palestinian Revolutionaries on International Women's Day

Not bad considering there are only about 3,000 Christians in Gaza.

 

[MikeK]

Where's the link?

Here it is. Apologies for the oversight.
http://filistin.wordpress.com/2006/0...-of-palestine/

Probably some pro-palestinian propaganda site? This proves nothing...

It is a pro-Palestinian site, which doesn't mean it isn't factual. I'm not a Middle East historian, and I doubt you are, but the chronology contains so many factual cites, such as the timing of the Balfour Declaration, they seem to fall in place and authenticate the rest.

But if I'm mistaken and you are a Middle East historian, please support your criticism with some academic facts. I would appreciate being authoritatively corrected. But until you do that I will accept the information I've posted as being factual.

 

[MikeK]

the Temple spontaneously built itself?

What temple are you referring to?

your professed "facts" leave out a lot of real history. you should really educate yourself on this issue.

Those are not my professed facts. They are professed facts that I copied from a website and failed to add the link.

If you have more credible, authenticated facts to refute the professed facts I've posted, please enlighten us. But a couple of snide ad hominems serve no constructive purpose.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

the Temple spontaneously built itself?

What temple are you referring to?

your professed "facts" leave out a lot of real history. you should really educate yourself on this issue.

Those are not my professed facts. They are professed facts that I copied from a website and failed to add the link.

If you have more credible, authenticated facts to refute the professed facts I've posted, please enlighten us. But a couple of snide ad hominems serve no constructive purpose.

The first Temple was built by King Solomon, and lasted about 410 years until it was destroyed by the Babylonians. (Soon coming upon us will be Tisha B'av, the fast day commemorating that Temple's destruction.) The second Temple, which King Herod enlarged and which was visited by Jesus, lasted about 420 years, until the Romans destroyed it.

 

[P F Tinmore]

the Temple spontaneously built itself?

What temple are you referring to?

your professed "facts" leave out a lot of real history. you should really educate yourself on this issue.

Those are not my professed facts. They are professed facts that I copied from a website and failed to add the link.

If you have more credible, authenticated facts to refute the professed facts I've posted, please enlighten us. But a couple of snide ad hominems serve no constructive purpose.

This should be good.

I await the refutation of facts.

 

[MikeK]

The first Temple was built by King Solomon, and lasted about 410 years until it was destroyed by the Babylonians. (Soon coming upon us will be Tisha B'av, the fast day commemorating that Temple's destruction.) The second Temple, which King Herod enlarged and which was visited by Jesus, lasted about 420 years, until the Romans destroyed it.

What does that have to do with Palestine? What am I missing? The chronology I posted commences in 1895 and has nothing to do with Biblical history.

 

[P F Tinmore]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlADUFdRHW4&feature=related]YouTube - ‪jericho at the dawn of human history‬‏[/ame]

 

[toomuchtime_]

My point is has nothing to do with this...it has to do whether there was ever actually a country named Palestine and where they actually came from. They have no right to any of the land that Israel has now. Besides, why would they give them land when it all belongs to Israel since 1967? Should the US give back the land we stole from the Indians? I'm sure they would appreciate it! Israel didn't steal their land, they fought for it and WON! It's THEIRS!

There's also stamps that say "Palestine"...so what?

A Brief History of Palestine

A Brief History of Palestine « FiLiSTiN – Palestine – Remember to include a link to what you copy and paste here, from elsewhere Mike! Also, please keep it down to a few paragraphs and refer to the link for the remaining article content..... Care *
1895 - 1917:
=========

1895:
The total population of Palestine was 500,000 of whom 47,000 were Jews who owned 0.5% of the land.

1896:
Following the appearance of anti-Semitism in Europe, Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism tried to find a political solution for the problem in his book, 'The Jewish State'. He advocated the creation of a Jewish state in Argentina or Palestine.

1897:
The first Zionist Congress was held in Switzerland, which issued the Basle Programme on the colonization of Palestine and the establishment of the World Zionist Organization (WZO).

1904:
The Fourth Zionist Congress decided to establish a national home for Jews in Argentina.

1906:
The Zionist congress decided the Jewish homeland should be Palestine.

1914:
With the outbreak of World War I, Britain promised the independence of Arab lands under Ottoman rule, including Palestine, in return for Arab support against Turkey which had entered the war on the side of Germany.

1916:
Britain and France signed the Sykes-Picot Agreement, which divided the Arab region into zones of influence. Lebanon and Syria were assigned to France, Jordan and Iraq to Britain and Palestine was to be internationalized.

1917:
Lord Balfour, the British Foreign Secretary sent a letter to the Zionist leader Lord Rothschild which later became known as "The Balfour declaration". He stated that Britain would use its best endeavors to facilitate the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people. At that time the population of Palestine was 700,000 of which 574,000 were Muslims, 74,000 were Christian, and 56,000 were Jews.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

1919 - 1967
=========

1919:
The Palestinians convened their first National Conference and expressed their opposition to the Balfour Declaration.

1920:
The San Remo Conference granted Britain a mandate over Palestine and two years later Palestine was effectively under British administration, and Sir Herbert Samuel, a declared Zionist, was sent as Britain's first High Commissioner to Palestine.

1922:
The Council of the League of Nations issued a Mandate for Palestine. The Mandate was in favor of the establishment for the Jewish people a homeland in Palestine.

1936:
The Palestinians held a six-month General Strike to protest against the confiscation of land and Jewish immigration.

1939:
The British government published a new White Paper restricting Jewish immigration and offering independence for Palestine within ten years. This was rejected by the Zionists, who then organized terrorist groups and launched a bloody campaign against the British and the Palestinians. The aim was to drive them both out of Palestine and to pave the way for the establishment of the Zionist state.

There are a number of inaccuracies and otherwise misleading statements in your brief history of Palestine, but the most troubling is that it leaves out the bloody Arab uprising that followed the collapse of the general strike in 1936. This uprising may have been the single most significant event in determining the consequences of Israel's declaration of statehood in 1948. The Arabs. it is estimated that as many as 10,000 young men participated, attacked both British and Jewish targets with the goal of driving them both out of Palestine.

It was in response to these Arab attacks that the various Jewish paramilitary groups, which the article refers to as terrorists, organized to protect Jewish communities and to hunt down those Arabs who attacked them. In an effort to end the Arab attacks, the British agreed to stop Jewish immigration to Palestine at a time when all three parties understood that those tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of Jews who were prevented from emigrating from Europe would end up in Hitler's concentration camps.

The memory of those Jews the British had consigned to Hitler's concentration camps in order to appease the Arabs produced a special bitterness among some of the Jewish groups who saw justice in brutal attacks against some British forces and colonial administrators, and in 1948, fear that the Jews would seek revenge for the Arab attacks against them during the uprising led many to flee the new state. A few years ago, Mahmoud Abbas said his family had left for that very reason.

 

[alexa]

There are a number of inaccuracies and otherwise misleading statements in your brief history of Palestine, but the most troubling is that it leaves out the bloody Arab uprising that followed the collapse of the general strike in 1936. This uprising may have been the single most significant event in determining the consequences of Israel's declaration of statehood in 1948. The Arabs. it is estimated that as many as 10,000 young men participated, attacked both British and Jewish targets with the goal of driving them both out of Palestine.

I've already written in a earlier post about the selectivity of memory or reporting on both sides. However there are inaccuracies in what you write as well.

I have studied this all before and I can't be bothered re-reading it all again but some points. In for instance the Hebron Massacre most of the Jews were saved because their long time arab neighbours risked their own lives by hiding them in their houses until it was over.

Yes there was an Arab uprising which was brutally met by the British aided by the Zionists. Thousands of arabs including leaders were killed by British and Zionists and one of the consequences of this was that it ended the possibility of Palestinians being able to protect themselves.

It's a very big subject but possibly the most important thing is that arabs and jews were living as friendly neighbours before zionism which is shown by the protection given to native Jews in Hebron.

It was in response to these Arab attacks that the various Jewish paramilitary groups, which the article refers to as terrorists, organized to protect Jewish communities and to hunt down those Arabs who attacked them.

not sure this is right

In an effort to end the Arab attacks, the British agreed to stop Jewish immigration to Palestine at a time when all three parties understood that those tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of Jews who were prevented from emigrating from Europe would end up in Hitler's concentration camps.

The memory of those Jews the British had consigned to Hitler's concentration camps in order to appease the Arabs produced a special bitterness among some of the Jewish groups who saw justice in brutal attacks against some British forces and colonial administrators, and in 1948, fear that the Jews would seek revenge for the Arab attacks against them during the uprising led many to flee the new state. A few years ago, Mahmoud Abbas said his family had left for that very reason.

Fascinating the way in which people justify things. I am sure Hamas can justify what it does as well.

Yes Britain limited Jewish immigration to try and keep social calm while at the same time increasing Jewish immigration to the UK. Illegal immigration also increased significantly.

However a lot more lives could surely have been saved if zionists had been prepared to go with the plan Rabbi Dr Solomon Schonfeld put to Parliament

In December 1942 he discussed his ideas about rescue with a number of highly positioned church men and Members of Parliament, and organized Parliament-wide support for a motion that asked the government to make a declaration along the following lines:

"That in view of the massacres and starvation of Jews and others in enemy and enemy-occupied countries, this House asks H. M. Government, following the United Nations Declaration read to both Houses of Parliament on 17th December, 1942, and in consultation with the Dominion Governments and the Government of India, to declare its readiness to find temporary refuge in its own territories or in territories under its control for endangered persons who are able to leave those countries; to appeal to the Governments of countries bordering on enemy and enemy-occupied countries to allow temporary asylum and transit facilities for such persons; to offer to those Governments, so far as practicable, such help as may be needed to facilitate their co-operation; and to invite the other Allied Governments to consider similar action."

Within ten days, two Archbishops, eight Peers, four Bishops, the Episcopate of England and Wales and 48 members of all parties signed the notice of meeting to consider the Motion. Eventually the number of members of Parliament in support of the motion rose to 177.

The above two 1942 initiatives could possibly have saved large numbers of Jews, but regretfully obstruction destroyed these important opportunities. The main reasons for obstruction were petty jealousy and tragic inability to appropriately prioritize the immediate cause of rescue and important but longer-term initiatives which could have waited until after the war. (The Parliamentary motion omitted Palestine as a possible temporary haven and was therefore opposed by a vocal faction.)

Solomon Schonfeld - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The plan was sadly stopped by zionists for the very reason that Palestine was not, because of the social turmoil already there, one of the accepted refuges.

You must know the, I think it was ben gurion, quote that he would rather save only a percentage of Jews and have a zionist state than save them all and not. I believe it was made in connection with this plan.

( Rabbi Dr Solomon Schonfeld was a special man who save thousands of Jews)

 

[Yoda]

Neither, let them kill each other so the rest of the human race can finally get beyond this biblical bullshit.

 

[P F Tinmore]

There are a number of inaccuracies and otherwise misleading statements in your brief history of Palestine, but the most troubling is that it leaves out the bloody Arab uprising that followed the collapse of the general strike in 1936. This uprising may have been the single most significant event in determining the consequences of Israel's declaration of statehood in 1948. The Arabs. it is estimated that as many as 10,000 young men participated, attacked both British and Jewish targets with the goal of driving them both out of Palestine.

It has been said constantly, at least a million times, that the "Arabs" attacked the Jews because they hate Jews and the Jews merely defended themselves.

This is an inaccurate portrayal of what happened. Since the turn of the century the Zionist's stated goal was to take over Palestine and create a Jewish state. Importing Jews by the boatload was a necessary step in implementing this plan.

The Palestinians did not attack the Jews because they were Jews, they were attacking foreign invaders who came to take over their country. The Palestinians attacked the British also. They were not Jews but were part of the invasion. The foreign invasion is the common denominator here.

Of course the Palestinians had every legal right to defend their country from foreign invasion. They still have that legal right to defend themselves from this invasion and resulting occupation of their country.

I have studied this all before and I can't be bothered re-reading it all again but some points. In for instance the Hebron Massacre most of the Jews were saved because their long time arab neighbours risked their own lives by hiding them in their houses until it was over.

There was no innate hatred of the Jews. The Palestinian Muslims, Christians, and Jews had an amicable relationship before the Zionists came onto the scene. This is not a religious conflict. It is a simple matter of the Palestinians defending their country.