Do You Force Religion on Your Kids?

[liberalogic]

And where do you suppose 'right & wrong' came from?

In this case, it doesn't matter where it came from. By society's standards, we have a definition of what is right and wrong. Call them judeo-christian, I won't even argue with you there because it's irrelevant. But just because you accept some of or all of those values, doesn't mean you have to believe in God or Jesus.

 

[dilloduck]

I'm not underestimating the mind of a child. I'm saying that when shit is drilled into your head early on in life, it tends to stick with you. I remember debating the issue of gay adoption with you and part of the reason you were against it was because it doesn't show the children the "proper" roles of men and women. I think you brought up something to the effect of a boy growing up with two mothers won't have the influence of the father to see how he should behave.

You're contadicting yourself because you mention the impact that that would have on a child (obviously you think it will influence him), so wouldn't being told to believe a religion have a lasting impact (regardless of whether you think it's good or bad) as well?

And yes, I did "escape." But many don't and many don't question it because that's what they were taught and they simply stick to it. Religion is too powerful to be instilled at such a young age when a child has no choice (due to his mental capacity) but to accept it.

And I'm sorry, but I don't believe this for a second: "People are inherently bad. It takes Faith in something bigger than themselves to coerce them into 'good' behaviour." I know plenty of atheists who are good people-- they didn't need the bible to tell them how to behave. Yes, there are evil people out there, but to blindly accept that we are ALL evil is quite an assumption to make. I never said the bible can't be used to instill morality, but it is not the only way. And also, many people have some moral standards that oppose the bible. For instance, I think people should be able to have premarital sex or masturbate for that matter. I think gays should be accepted. I don't think slavery should be condoned on any level. I think women are 100% equal to men. I value this and it all contradicts the bible. So I could argue that it shouldn't be used to show morality, but that's a totally different issue and does not pertain to the subject.

And having a lasting impression of religion is a bad thing?

 

[Gunny]

Is lying 'bad'? My daughter lied for the first time because she thought it'd mean she didn't get a spankin' for (gasp!) something 'bad' she did

See? She was looking out for her butt!!! :spank3:

 

[Joz]

..... For instance, I think people should be able to have premarital sex or masturbate for that matter. I think gays should be accepted. I don't think slavery should be condoned on any level. I think women are 100% equal to men. I value this and it all contradicts the bible. So I could argue that it shouldn't be used to show morality, but that's a totally different issue and does not pertain to the subject.

Start a new thread then. And show me where.

 

[Joz]

Is lying 'bad'? My daughter lied for the first time because she thought it'd mean she didn't get a spankin' for (gasp!) something 'bad' she did

Lying comes from fear. She either feared you, or punishment. She KNEW right from wrong.
I never punished my children when they told me they did something wrong. Even if it was punishable. We talked about what they did, & why they shoudn't have done it. I have talked VERY frank with both of my boys. I've never regretted it one minute.

 

[dilloduck]

In this case, it doesn't matter where it came from. By society's standards, we have a definition of what is right and wrong. Call them judeo-christian, I won't even argue with you there because it's irrelevant. But just because you accept some of or all of those values, doesn't mean you have to believe in God or Jesus.

As mom4 said---It's just a framework to work with---like a male child having a male parent. A lot of this framework stuff assumes that the individual will finally figure out that he is responsible for himself. If the individual continues to bitch after coming of age then I would say they are just dodging the responsibility of continuing the process that the parents started. They don't do it all for ya.

 

[liberalogic]

And having a lasting impression of religion is a bad thing?

You missed my point-- you said that I underestimate the mind of the child. I'm saying that you yourself made the point that children are very impressionable when you were talking about gay adoption.

My point is not that religion is bad-- it's that children should not be brought up one way or the other because it's telling them to accept something when they don't have the mental capacity to see its flaws (or even its pros for that matter). They're believing it because it's shoved down their throat. And that is not why you should believe in something.

 

[dmp]

I's that children should not be brought up one way or the other because it's telling them to accept something when they don't have the mental capacity to see its flaws (or even its pros for that matter). .

That's a lie brother. That's a lie and absolute UNTRUTH. It's one of the worst lies...the worst opinions I've read. In my life.

 

[dilloduck]

You missed my point-- you said that I underestimate the mind of the child. I'm saying that you yourself made the point that children are very impressionable when you were talking about gay adoption.

My point is not that religion is bad-- it's that children should not be brought up one way or the other because it's telling them to accept something when they don't have the mental capacity to see its flaws (or even its pros for that matter). They're believing it because it's shoved down their throat. And that is not why you should believe in something.

Shoved down thier throats?? They are just raised to act and think a certain way. You have this dream that a child can somehow be raised WITHOUT any "programming" and in your mind religion is the only form of "programming".

 

[Gunny]

You missed my point-- you said that I underestimate the mind of the child. I'm saying that you yourself made the point that children are very impressionable when you were talking about gay adoption.

My point is not that religion is bad-- it's that children should not be brought up one way or the other because it's telling them to accept something when they don't have the mental capacity to see its flaws (or even its pros for that matter). They're believing it because it's shoved down their throat. And that is not why you should believe in something.

Your point is contrary to the teachings of most religions. Christianity compels Christians to raise their children up right.

Perhaps they believe it because it is right. Just because YOU have decided otherwise makes it no less right.

 

[Gunny]

That's a lie brother. That's a lie and absolute UNTRUTH. It's one of the worst lies...the worst opinions I've read. In my life.

Note the flaws in HIS thinking though ....

I think people should be able to have premarital sex or masturbate for that matter. I think gays should be accepted.

 

[liberalogic]

My main concern in this case is not morality. It's being told that there is a God, or that Jesus exists, or Allah, or anyone else for that matter.

"You have this dream that a child can somehow be raised WITHOUT any "programming" and in your mind religion is the only form of "programming".

I NEVER SAID THAT, so please don't put words in my mouth. Programming, as you call it, does not mean that you need to be religious! I am not saying you should throw the kid on the street and let him fend for himself. All I'm saying is that drilling in the notion of a specific God, regardless of the religion, is training the child to believe something when he is not able to put it into perspective. It's like only hearing one side of a story. Or better yet, it's like buying clothes for a baby boy, when you don't even know the sex of the baby yet and the mother hasn't given birth. How do you know if they will fit? It's the same thing with religion-- making the kid believe that there's only room for one God or one religion, is making him believe something even if it won't be conducive to his character when he is older.

 

[liberalogic]

That's a lie brother. That's a lie and absolute UNTRUTH. It's one of the worst lies...the worst opinions I've read. In my life.

Show me how that's a lie.

 

[Gunny]

My main concern in this case is not morality. It's being told that there is a God, or that Jesus exists, or Allah, or anyone else for that matter.

"You have this dream that a child can somehow be raised WITHOUT any "programming" and in your mind religion is the only form of "programming".

I NEVER SAID THAT, so please don't put words in my mouth. Programming, as you call it, does not mean that you need to be religious! I am not saying you should throw the kid on the street and let him fend for himself. All I'm saying is that drilling in the notion of a specific God, regardless of the religion, is training the child to believe something when he is not able to put it into perspective. It's like only hearing one side of a story. Or better yet, it's like buying clothes for a baby boy, when you don't even know the sex of the baby yet and the mother hasn't given birth. How do you know if they will fit? It's the same thing with religion-- making the kid believe that there's only room for one God or one religion, is making him believe something even if it won't be conducive to his character when he is older.

What you are doing is trying to gloss over telling us we should throw our religion out the window and ignore its teachings because you think otherwise.

Here's a liberal thought for you: If you don't want to teach your children about God, that's your business. Their loss. But don't be telling me what to teach mine.

 

[liberalogic]

What you are doing is trying to gloss over telling us we should throw our religion out the window and ignore its teachings because you think otherwise.

Here's a liberal thought for you: If you don't want to teach your children about God, that's your business. Their loss. But don't be telling me what to teach mine.

Bullshit. I am not telling you to get rid of your religious beliefs, no matter how much I detest them. That's not the point of this and you know it. I am bringing up the ethical question of whether or not a religion should be ingrained in the mind of a child, when they have no choice but to accept it because they do not have the mental ability to understand it in the context of the world. I am not telling you what you should believe-- you're a big boy, you have the mental ability to decide for yourself. But kids don't, and having them accept it when they can't really process it is basically propaganda.

 

[dilloduck]

Bullshit. I am not telling you to get rid of your religious beliefs, no matter how much I detest them. That's not the point of this and you know it. I am bringing up the ethical question of whether or not a religion should be ingrained in the mind of a child, when they have no choice but to accept it because they do not have the mental ability to understand it in the context of the world. I am not telling you what you should believe-- you're a big boy, you have the mental ability to decide for yourself. But kids don't, and having them accept it when they can't really process it is basically propaganda.

How about things that have nothing to do with religion ? Wouldn't that be committing the very same sin? Why tell a kid that he is riding in a car----it's stifling--what if he wants to call it something else?

 

[Gunny]

Bullshit. I am not telling you to get rid of your religious beliefs, no matter how much I detest them. That's not the point of this and you know it. I am bringing up the ethical question of whether or not a religion should be ingrained in the mind of a child, when they have no choice but to accept it because they do not have the mental ability to understand it in the context of the world. I am not telling you what you should believe-- you're a big boy, you have the mental ability to decide for yourself. But kids don't, and having them accept it when they can't really process it is basically propaganda.

The bullshit is your attempt to say you aren't saying what you ARE saying. Christianity compels us to raise our children in the eyes of the Lord. THAT is a part of the religion. By telling me to not teach my children about God, you are telling me to turn my back on my religion.

The greatest flaw in your argument is that you base it on the presumption that it is fact there is no God. I believe you are wrong. Furthermore, it is my responsibility to teach my children right from wrong based on MY beliefs, not yours.

 

[liberalogic]

How about things that have nothing to do with religion ? Wouldn't that be committing the very same sin? Why tell a kid that he is riding in a car----it's stifling--what if he wants to call it something else?

Irrelevant and illogical.

Religion is ambiguous-- note that there are many religions to choose from. Language is language...there is no other way to interpret it, unless you speak in ebonix.

 

[dilloduck]

Irrelevant and illogical.

Religion is ambiguous-- note that there are many religions to choose from. Language is language...there is no other way to interpret it, unless you speak in ebonix.

Aren't you basically trying to say that children should be told the truth and only the truth ?

 

[liberalogic]

The bullshit is your attempt to say you aren't saying what you ARE saying. Christianity compels us to raise our children in the eyes of the Lord. THAT is a part of the religion. By telling me to not teach my children about God, you are telling me to turn my back on my religion.

The greatest flaw in your argument is that you base it on the presumption that it is fact there is no God. I believe you are wrong. Furthermore, it is my responsibility to teach my children right from wrong based on MY beliefs, not yours.

I am not basing it on the belief that there is no God. But how do you know that your God exists? What if it's really Allah up there? I am not denying the existence of your God or any other God-- my presumption, which is a fact, is that there are many different Gods that believe in. What if, for instance, your kids want to be Hindu? Or Jewish? Or Muslim? Or nothing at all? Shouldn't they be able to decide this without the impartial influence of Christianity?

And please don't take this as me telling you what to do; that's not my intention-- I'm just raising this point because people tend to overlook it. Your business is your business and quite frankly I really don't care how you raise your kids. So don't think I'm personally attacking you.

The one point that you make that I will concede to is: "Christianity compels us to raise our children in the eyes of the Lord. THAT is a part of the religion. By telling me to not teach my children about God, you are telling me to turn my back on my religion."

That's an excellent point that you make. So based on that, you are fulfilling your role as a Christian by raising your kids that way. It's a tough statement to work around because if I say that you still shouldn't do it, then I'm saying YOU, yourself (not your kids), should not be Christian. If I say to do it, then I contradict myself.

Personally, I would retort to that by saying that all Christians have sinned along the way (hell, when you're born you've already sinned). To do this may be a sin, but what's the difference between that and all the other sins that you've repented? I don't know if you do confession, I'm just basing it on catholocism because thats how I was brought up.