Do you feel Hate Speech should be Allowed?

[Luissa]

who is the government to determine what is or what is not "hate speech"? their power comes from the people, not the other way around...this is what libs don't get or refuse to see....

as far as the question is concerned, "hate speech" should be judged by society, not politicians.....we already have too many restrictions in this world courtesy of the Left.....Political correctness, academia, etc....

Repugs are the ones who want wire taps and want to tell us if we can have an abortion or not.

 

[editec]

No, my generation is definately more tolerant than those that have come before, you can look at any polling on the subject. I'm not just talking about race, I'm also talking about the gay rights movement that my generation will see through, if those before us don't. I know that this tolerance is not true of all of us, but it is of the vast majority, and the majority is what will shape the future of this county.

I think that is basically true, Odd1. the younger american generation is more tolerant on racial issues, and gender issues, and issues surrounding homsexuality.

But do you want to know where you generation is less tolerant than any other generation in the nation?

Your generation is more classist than any generation currently extant.

Your generation, the generation who read Ayn Rand and failed to see what blather it was, is classist as hell.

It is Less tolerant to the poor than any generation alive today. It fails more than any generation to understand the concept of social contract and the fact that mankind is an intergenerational going concern.

This filure to understand the concept of intergenerational going concern is an arrogance that youth typical suffer from, BTW.

My generation also failed to understand that, too, until we got older.

That's just plain old hubris, dude

Your generation's partial truth, one which is being reinforced by the wealthy so that you will support their politics, is that people have a high degree of control over their lives....which is of course completely absurd.

The truth that apparently fewer of you generation realizes than other alive today is this: People do not have complete control over their lifes. No amount of skill, hard work, talent, or ambition will ever give people that kind of control over their fate that most libertopians seem to think they have right now over theirs.

Also your generation seem less tolerant of believers than any I've ever see, too.

This I find particularly odd since your generation has had to take far less crap from the believers than any generation still alive today that proceeded yours.

Yet, your generation whines like babies about how oppressed you all are by the bible thumpers.

My generation just ignored the believers, yours seem intent on doing battle with the notwits. Waste of your time, incidently.

Militant atheism is considered intellectualism by your generation

Most of us older types realize that being a militant atheist is a wrong headed as being a militant believer.

Both militant theology groups feel the have THE ANSWER, when it is apparent to most of the older generation that nobody will EVER have THE answer tp those questions, and its a waste of time to argue them.

Time and circumstance tests each generation in different ways.

Growing up about the classist and believer issues are the tests your generation is going to have to go through, I guess... just as the bommers had to grow up about race and gender issues.

Good luck with those tests, by the way.

I'm sure your generation will grow up, just as every generation that proceeded yours did, too.

Comparing our "political intolerance," as you call it, to that which lead up to the Civil War is just completely ridiculous. No one is advocating killing their neighbor, and such extreme comments only tell of your personal distaste for what you see our beliefs to be.

Gee, not quite true. Some nitwit gun queer on this board recently expressed the glee he would feel when I and my familiy were killed for not having a gun on hand.

That's not exactly tolerance, now, is it?

Expressions of "I'll kill you if you come to my home" are actually quite commonly expressed here on this board by our militant gun queers.

You haven't noticed their sotto voce threats directed at those of us who are not on board with their gun religion?

We're the next wave of the progressive movement, and if that troubles you, then I guess you better brace yourself.

Every generation has its progressive and regressives.

Yours will be no different.

The issues they fight over might be different than the issues we fought over, but phiosophically mankind is in a constant battle between the control freaks and the people who demand freedom from oppression.

the issues might be different, but the bedrock of what those issues will be will ALWAYS be about power and control.

 

[KGB]

Repugs are the ones who want wire taps and want to tell us if we can have an abortion or not.

yes, the American Gestapo is just rounding up all the dissidents everywhere & the re-education camps are way past full capacity.....

as far as abortion goes, you do have a choice....you have the choice of keeping your damn legs shut ahead of time.....how about quit making the unborn child pay with their life because you can't control your selfish horny desires....

 

[Odd1_Out]

Your generation is more classist than any generation currently extant.

It is Less tolerant to the poor than any generation alive today. It fails more than any generation to understand the concept of social contract and the fact that mankind is an intergenerational going concern.

The truth that apparently fewer of you generation realizes than other alive today is this: People do not have complete control over their lifes. No amount of skill, hard work, talent, or ambition will ever give people that kind of control over their fate that most libertopians seem to think they have right now over theirs.

Also your generation seem less tolerant of believers than any I've ever see, too.

I see your point, class and religion are weaker points for us, but I of course have a rebuttal.

The classist thing more comes out of a fear of being poor, than an actual hatred of the poor. Just about everyone I know would give a hobo their spare change, if they asked for it because they hope that others would be so kind to them if they were in that situation. We've had to come of age amid a recession, with a record national debt, a bit of our own debt, sky rocketing tuition costs, hearing all the time about how social security will collapse long before we hit retirement, and WE'RE SCARED. The economy seems bleak to us, so we just keep repeating "gotta get rich, gotta get rich" because we're afraid of the alternative.

We may seem arrogant and our goals may be high, but its because we're all afraid of our country crumbling around us if we don't do something big. We're hoping that our talent, determination, and hard work will get us something worthwhile, and that doesn't sound overly unrealistic, and nothing anyone can say will stop us from trying. Most people who tell us our hard work won't get us anywhere, slacked off when they were our age. We may be putting a lot of stake into something that will one day lead to disappointment, but even if that's the case, the mentality behind it is still admirable.

Its true that more of us are atheist than previous generations. I wouldn't say we are intolerant of believers, but we do dismiss the belief in god as stupid. We all still have friends who believe in god, and don't give them any guff about it. Some are intolerant, but again, not most. You can't judge the whole by the minority.

Also, tho, I didn't include the bit about gun nuts from your post. I feel safe saying that again anyone talking like that is in the minority, and therefore not an accurate depiction of the whole. My point, was that that kind of speech was intolerant, so there was no need for a correction there.

 

[editec]

I see your point, class and religion are weaker points for us, but I of course have a rebuttal.

The classist thing more comes out of a fear of being poor, than an actual hatred of the poor. Just about everyone I know would give a hobo their spare change, if they asked for it because they hope that others would be so kind to them if they were in that situation. We've had to come of age amid a recession, with a record national debt, a bit of our own debt, sky rocketing tuition costs, hearing all the time about how social security will collapse long before we hit retirement, and WE'RE SCARED. The economy seems bleak to us, so we just keep repeating "gotta get rich, gotta get rich" because we're afraid of the alternative.

Wow! you're a deep thinker for a young man.

Yes, much of that I am master of my destiny posting we read is exactly that...whistling in the dark.

You know how that works, right?

Somebody gets cancer and the first question asked is: Did they smoke?

It's human nature to WANT to believe that if you just do everything right, if you're careful, and frugal, and take care of your health, that nothing bad will ever happen to you.

SO.....we often read here how some twenty or early thirty-something telling us how they're so successful because of all their hard work.

And what many of us understand perfectly is that what they got the worked damned hard for. We don
t doubt their claim to deserving what they got because many of us did exactly the same thing.

But we ALSO understand that what they got they got because NOTHING BEYOND THEIR CONTROL HAS YET FUCKED THEM UP.

Now what I see from young libertarians is that magic-thinking writ large and turned into a political philosophy which is nothing but a big fat lie.

And a big big part of that magical thinking requires them to BLAME THE VICTIM, so that they can tell themselves that the victim's fate will NEVER befall them.

Been there, did that, myself when I was young, and I've got the wingtips and the oxford shirts and the ties to prove it, too.

We may seem arrogant and our goals may be high, but its because we're all afraid of our country crumbling around us if we don't do something big.

You're talking to a boomer, here. I think I understand that generational sentiment to fix the world, fairly well.

We're hoping that our talent, determination, and hard work will get us something worthwhile, and that doesn't sound overly unrealistic, and nothing anyone can say will stop us from trying.

Nor are any of us TRYING to stop you from doing your best, either.

Most people who tell us our hard work won't get us anywhere, slacked off when they were our age.

And there's the myth again.

Don't we ALL wish that were true? If we just keep our noses clean and to the grindstone nothing bad can happen to us.

We may be putting a lot of stake into something that will one day lead to disappointment, but even if that's the case, the mentality behind it is still admirable.

Admirable and delusional at the same time.

Its true that more of us are atheist than previous generations. I wouldn't say we are intolerant of believers, but we do dismiss the belief in god as stupid. We all still have friends who believe in god, and don't give them any guff about it. Some are intolerant, but again, not most. You can't judge the whole by the minority.

True. But we are talking about a generation and its unique qualities. Militant atheism is a fairly obvious and relatively new thing that your generation seems to have accepted as okay and proof of a superior intellect.

Also, tho, I didn't include the bit about gun nuts from your post. I feel safe saying that again anyone talking like that is in the minority, and therefore not an accurate depiction of the whole.

Of course it is. But it's not such a small minority here on this board, now, is it?

But gun queerism isn't a specific disease of your generation. I wasn't claiming that it was, either.


Those guys were around and always have been. I've got relatives with arsenals in their homes. They're guns queers and they're of my father's generation and of mine, too. that has nothing to do specifically with your generation.

Every generation has trials to face.

Every generation solves some problems and every generation's solutions end up making new problems for the next.

I have absolute confidence you generation will spawn heros and villians just as every generation has done since Adam met madam.

I am not at all worried that you generation will fail to live up to and down to my expectations, either.

Now, please remember this:

My generation will be leaving yours the best of all possible worlds, just as my father's generation left us with the same.

Please don't screw it up.

Thanks!

 

[Gunny]

I see your point, class and religion are weaker points for us, but I of course have a rebuttal.

The classist thing more comes out of a fear of being poor, than an actual hatred of the poor. Just about everyone I know would give a hobo their spare change, if they asked for it because they hope that others would be so kind to them if they were in that situation. We've had to come of age amid a recession, with a record national debt, a bit of our own debt, sky rocketing tuition costs, hearing all the time about how social security will collapse long before we hit retirement, and WE'RE SCARED. The economy seems bleak to us, so we just keep repeating "gotta get rich, gotta get rich" because we're afraid of the alternative.

We all felt the same way, behaved the same way, and heard the same rhetoric re: social security back in the late 70s early 80's when we were in our late teens-early twenties.

We may seem arrogant and our goals may be high, but its because we're all afraid of our country crumbling around us if we don't do something big. We're hoping that our talent, determination, and hard work will get us something worthwhile, and that doesn't sound overly unrealistic, and nothing anyone can say will stop us from trying. Most people who tell us our hard work won't get us anywhere, slacked off when they were our age. We may be putting a lot of stake into something that will one day lead to disappointment, but even if that's the case, the mentality behind it is still admirable.

What you are saying is, you are motivated out of fear, and that fear is based on rhetoric. There also is the fact that what it is that is causing our society to crumble is progressivism. YOU are the ones trying to force changes, and where proggressives have forced changes, it isn't always for the best interest of all and this nation. It's change for the sake of change just so progressives can claim they "did something big."

I have nothing but respect for people who put hard work into whatever it is they wish to attain. I will take exception to your comment about people "slacking off." They either figured out they were wasting their time and quit beating their heads against the wall and/or burned themselves out.

Its true that more of us are atheist than previous generations. I wouldn't say we are intolerant of believers, but we do dismiss the belief in god as stupid. We all still have friends who believe in god, and don't give them any guff about it. Some are intolerant, but again, not most. You can't judge the whole by the minority.

When the majority of those we address on message board are openly insulting toward Christians -- and saying that you "dismiss the belief in God as stupid" IS calling people who believe in God stupid -- then you are indeed expressing an intolerance to belief in God.

Turning your own words around, try not to wonder why those who do believe in God see your lack of belief/faith as stupid. Any alternate theory I have ever heard to God requires a LOT of imagination and guesswork, and make even less sense than a supreme being.

But that goes back to your arrogance. You choose to dismiss God because you in fact have this mentality that humans are supreme, and that among them, you (progrssives) are the elite. Again, that's nothing new.

Also, tho, I didn't include the bit about gun nuts from your post. I feel safe saying that again anyone talking like that is in the minority, and therefore not an accurate depiction of the whole. My point, was that that kind of speech was intolerant, so there was no need for a correction there.

Your arrogance also blinds you to the fact that people have been doing what you have been doing since the dawn of Man; otherwise, we'd STILL live in caves. Society would not have progressed at all. We ALL think we are going to change the world and that somehow, our little contribution is going to make a difference. You sound very little different than I did when I was in high school and in my twenties.

You got some heartaches coming your way.

 

[carol6018]

You mean like United Negro College Fund, and black this and black that. If white people did this we would be racist.

 

[Odd1_Out]

I disagree. And remember, I lived through my generation AND yours.

The comparison is hardly ridiculous. No one was advocating killing one another in their political intolerance prior to the Civil War either.

The next wave of the progressive movement? Ever asked what you're "progressing" toward? Look at you. Look at your post. You sound like my daughter in 1995 trying to tell me I didn't know how bell bottom jeans were supposed to fit.

What you are is just another person in a generation that thinks they're going to reinvent the wheel.

Trouble me? Hardly. You too will grow the fuck up sooner or later. Hopefully.

Actually, prior to the Civil War violence had already broken out in the form of riots and lynching parties, among other things. The North and South openly hated each other, and DID advocate killing one another. Killing people from the other side was often the subject of political cartoons and editorial columns, not to mention everyday conversation. The South had talked about leaving the Union for sometime before it actually happened, and everyone understood this action would mean war.

That being said, just because you've lived longer it doesn't me you know more than I do, it just means you're older.

What we're progressing towards is corporate reform. To make sure that all employees get proper benefits, and that the appropriate industries are regulated to prevent the sort of abuses that have lead us to the point we are now. We're progressing toward social equality for people of all races, religions, genders, ancestries, and sexual orientations.

All of the young people I have spoken with would also like to see a reform of the welfare system, again, to prevent abuses, but also to help more people. We would do this by getting rid of the crumbling social security system, and establishing a negative income tax for the elderly who had failed to earn enough money during their lifetime to sustain themselves thru retirement and people who failed to earn wages equal to the poverty line for their household, and worked a certain required number of hours throughout the year. Also, we would turn state governments into their own contracting and construction companies for roads, bridges, etc. in order to cut costs on these projects and give everyone a chance to work enough hours to qualify for the negative income tax. This plan would statistically end poverty in the US. Oh, and I checked out all the numbers using the US Census Bureau website, and they work out, this plan is fiscally sound, however unlikely it is to be passed.

I don't have some "vague" idea about what I consider progress to be. Its creating a New Deal for the New Millenium, and revamping the old New Deal programs to work for modern day America. Its Americans realizing that each individuals well-being is intrinsically tied to that of every other person's well-being in their community. That's what I call progress.

 

[dilloduck]

Actually, prior to the Civil War violence had already broken out in the form of riots and lynching parties, among other things. The North and South openly hated each other, and DID advocate killing one another. Killing people from the other side was often the subject of political cartoons and editorial columns, not to mention everyday conversation. The South had talked about leaving the Union for sometime before it actually happened, and everyone understood this action would mean war.

That being said, just because you've lived longer it doesn't me you know more than I do, it just means you're older.

What we're progressing towards is corporate reform. To make sure that all employees get proper benefits, and that all industries are regulated to prevent the sort of abuses that have lead us to the point we are now. We're progressing toward social equality for people of all races, religions, genders, ancestries, and sexual orientations.

All of the young people I have spoken with would also like to see a reform of the welfare system, again, to prevent abuses, but also to help more people. We would do this by getting rid of the crumbling social security system, and establishing a negative income tax for the elderly who had failed to earn enough money during their lifetime to sustain themselves thru retirement and people who failed to earn wages equal to the poverty line for their household, and worked a certain required number of hours throughout the year. Also, we would turn state governments into their own contracting and construction companies for roads, bridges, etc. in order to cut costs on these projects and give everyone a chance to work enough hours to qualify for the negative income tax. This plan would statistically end poverty in the US. Oh, and I checked out all the numbers using the US Census Bureau website, and they work out, this plan is fiscally sound, however unlikely it is to be passed.

I don't have some "vague" idea about what I consider progress to be. Its creating a New Deal for the New Millenium, and revamping the old New Deal programs to work for modern day America. Its Americans realizing that each individuals well-being is intrinsically tied to that of every other person's well-being in their community. That's what I call progress.

Your daughter sounds cute, you should introduce us. (See, I can be disrespectful, too.)

Facism ? It's been tried but if you need another lesson in it go for it.

 

[Odd1_Out]

Facism ? It's been tried but if you need another lesson in it go for it.

If anything I'm suggesting implementing socialistic programs, but not all out socialism, and certainly not facism. There is a difference, and with the proper checks and balances, democracy and time limits being put on the duration of all legislation, would be two of the main ones. While similar things have been tried, the exact sort of system I'm suggesting has not. One thing that was lacking from all other plans was the American ideal of maintaining freedom and equality, not to mention our 3 separate branches of government and the other checks and balances of our government. This has proven to make a huge difference throughout our country's history, and has enabled us time and again to succeed where others have failed.

 

[Gunny]

Actually, prior to the Civil War violence had already broken out in the form of riots and lynching parties, among other things. The North and South openly hated each other, and DID advocate killing one another. Killing people from the other side was often the subject of political cartoons and editorial columns, not to mention everyday conversation. The South had talked about leaving the Union for sometime before it actually happened, and everyone understood this action would mean war.

Might want to brush up on your history a tad. The North and South did not hate each other. The powerbrokers on each side hated each other, and only extremists advocated killing one another. More than a time or two wishing people of the "other political side" would die has been expressed on this board alone. You can't tell me you actually believe there aren't extremists who wish the other side dead now, as they did then.

The overall belief was that there would be no war, or that if there was it wouldn't last long. It was treated as joke until after Mannassas.

That being said, just because you've lived longer it doesn't me you know more than I do, it just means you're older.

I did not say I was smarter. I'm reserving THAT for after having read the entirety of this particular post. What I DO have in those years is experience and observation. I've seen and heard all this before. Hasn't happened yet. I'll give you credit for thinking, but I disagree completely with your ideology.

What would make me smarter than you on this particular topic is that I can foretell the end of your plan, and your crash-n-burn ideologically when reality strikes.

What we're progressing towards is corporate reform. To make sure that all employees get proper benefits, and that the appropriate industries are regulated to prevent the sort of abuses that have lead us to the point we are now. We're progressing toward social equality for people of all races, religions, genders, ancestries, and sexual orientations.

Are we? We sure have a funny way of going about it. But please, call it what it is ... what YOU are progressing toward is your vision of social utopia. An unrealistic vision, I might add.

All of the young people I have spoken with would also like to see a reform of the welfare system, again, to prevent abuses, but also to help more people. We would do this by getting rid of the crumbling social security system, and establishing a negative income tax for the elderly who had failed to earn enough money during their lifetime to sustain themselves thru retirement and people who failed to earn wages equal to the poverty line for their household, and worked a certain required number of hours throughout the year. Also, we would turn state governments into their own contracting and construction companies for roads, bridges, etc. in order to cut costs on these projects and give everyone a chance to work enough hours to qualify for the negative income tax. This plan would statistically end poverty in the US. Oh, and I checked out all the numbers using the US Census Bureau website, and they work out, this plan is fiscally sound, however unlikely it is to be passed.

Dude, you can have your social utopia. Perhaps you want to live in cookie cutter cutter house, drive a cookie cutter car to your cookie cutter job and work cookie cutter hours and never have to strive toward nor excel at anything to have more, but I don't.

I don't have some "vague" idea about what I consider progress to be. Its creating a New Deal for the New Millenium, and revamping the old New Deal programs to work for modern day America. Its Americans realizing that each individuals well-being is intrinsically tied to that of every other person's well-being in their community. That's what I call progress.

Sure. And YOU would be one of the elites running the show so naturally you wouldn't be boxed into the same automaton lifestyle to which you would relegate all others, right?

Good luck. Ain't going to happen.

 

[William Joyce]

I've never felt I need to "tolerate" someone...I just live my life and as long as their choices don't infringe on MY life why should I care?

Well, this is a viewpoint that white Western world hewed to for centuries, but things are different now. We now live in a multiracial society in which individualism has been replaced by group politics. "Their choices" mean usupring government power and forcing wealth transfers from YOU to THEM.

That's why you should care.