Do you favor smaller government?

[manifold]

kaz' retarded logic goes something like this...

If the government outlawed wearing baseball caps in public, and sent people to jail for violating the law, it wouldn't be an example of big government because even libertarians support having a penal system.

Isn't it a little early in the day to be boozing?

If it was up to me, you can drink whenever you like. Unlike you, I honestly support smaller government.

 

[Truthmatters]

Yes it was designed to be the peoples power.

That is why letting corporations have "voices" is insane.

Corporate capture of the Federal gov't predates Citizens United. Halliburton's business dropped off years before that decision. Even if you bar corporate speech, those who profit from the corporations, individuals, will speak for them.

Cooperation's should have a voice because business is a big part of our economy. However, they should not have any right to contribute to campaigns directly as we are seeing today. The outcome of the vote should never come down to who out pays the politicians. That's the way it is today, and that's one of the reasons we are in this mess today.

The people who run the corporations can already vote.

They should be allowed to talk to our government representatives and give their side of the issue. They should not evern be allowed to buy those members a cup of coffee.

 

[kaz]

kaz' retarded logic goes something like this...

If the government outlawed wearing baseball caps in public, and sent people to jail for violating the law, it wouldn't be an example of big government because even libertarians support having a penal system.

Isn't it a little early in the day to be boozing?

If it was up to me, you can drink whenever you like. Unlike you, I honestly support smaller government.

I want to have a legal system, which you concluded means I support the right of government to send people for jail for wearing baseball caps. Is this another stupid argument or do you know what you're talking about this time?

 

[manifold]

Isn't it a little early in the day to be boozing?

If it was up to me, you can drink whenever you like. Unlike you, I honestly support smaller government.

I want to have a legal system, which you concluded means I support the right of government to send people for jail for wearing baseball caps. Is this another stupid argument or do you know what you're talking about this time?

It pains to admit it, but Ravi is right.

You are a retard.

But whatcha gonna do?

 

[Two Thumbs]

Having a penal system is not big government. How we run it is.

We have far to many unconstitutional laws that we put people in jail for, so many that it's hard to grasp how we even manage to keep it controled at all.

 

[kaz]

If it was up to me, you can drink whenever you like. Unlike you, I honestly support smaller government.

I want to have a legal system, which you concluded means I support the right of government to send people for jail for wearing baseball caps. Is this another stupid argument or do you know what you're talking about this time?

It pains to admit it, but Ravi is right.

You are a retard.

But whatcha gonna do?

Sorry, I didn't realize you don't read your own posts, how are you supposed to know what you said?

 

[Si modo]

Isn't it a little early in the day to be boozing?

If it was up to me, you can drink whenever you like. Unlike you, I honestly support smaller government.

I want to have a legal system, which you concluded means I support the right of government to send people for jail for wearing baseball caps. Is this another stupid argument or do you know what you're talking about this time?

Here is the line of thinking:

The DP often requires special housing for those sentenced to death, ie. 'death row'. => more government (special digs for the ones waiting for death, separate guards, etc.)

A sentence of death gets an automatic appeal => more government (court time, court workers' time, defense attorneys, prosecutors, etc.)

Carrying out the DP requires a special room => more government.

Carrying out the DP requires special personnel => more government.




See?

 

[manifold]

Having a penal system is not big government. How we run it is.

Bingo.

And at least conceptually, using it to put people to death is certainly not 'small' government usage.

It's funny how some people paint themselves into such a corner that they can't even be honest with themselves. It's perfectly reasonable to say that you prefer smaller government in general, but you're willing to make an exception when it comes to the death penalty for the most vile and violent felons.

What I was really hoping for here is for advocates of smaller government to acknowledge and defend those areas where they are willing to make an exception. But apparently, they can't even admit that government mandated piss tests qualify as 'bigger' government. And that's as intellectually dishonest as it gets.

 

[Wry Catcher]

I favor smarter government

Good luck with that...

Smarter government requires a smarter voter; If the intelligence of many of those who post on this message board reflects the American voter we'll need more than luck.

In my career I learned one immutable truth, one which I passed on to new recruits at the Academy: "Watch their feet and hands, not their lips, it's not what suspects (or pols) say, it's what they do that matters".

 

[Sallow]

Having a penal system is not big government. How we run it is.
We have far to many unconstitutional laws that we put people in jail for, so many that it's hard to grasp how we even manage to keep it controled at all.

Well..we could have a penal system that does nothing. That would be smaller government.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Having a penal system is not big government. How we run it is.

Bingo.

And at least conceptually, using it to put people to death is certainly not 'small' government usage.

It's funny how some people paint themselves into such a corner that they can't even be honest with themselves. It's perfectly reasonable to say that you prefer smaller government in general, but you're willing to make an exception when it comes to the death penalty for the most vile and violent felons.

What I was really hoping for here is for advocates of smaller government to acknowledge and defend those areas where they are willing to make an exception. But apparently, they can't even admit that government mandated piss tests qualify as 'bigger' government. And that's as intellectually dishonest as it gets.

That's the level playing feild / fairs fair mentality.

The piss test does increase power while attempting to lower costs. The reason/excuse comes in when Vets or anyone else that gets a gov job must pass a piss test to get and/or keep their job. In the military we averaged 18 - 24 piss tests a year. In 9 1/2 years I knew 2 people that got caught.
so if the welfare cost decline below the cost of the test, expect to see more of that.

As far as the DP goes; I would be fully against it if prison sucked. As is, due to big government, we have to provide them with 3 balanced meals a day, special meals for those on diets, have available to buy; snacks, cigs, soda, tv's, and for the tv's, each cell must have a cable outlet, gym, yard, free medical, free education, church services, etc, etc. All at a very large cost.

Basically making prison a home with bars.

 

[Truthmatters]

It makes you wonder what they picture in their minds when they say Big Government?

 

[Two Thumbs]

Having a penal system is not big government. How we run it is.
We have far to many unconstitutional laws that we put people in jail for, so many that it's hard to grasp how we even manage to keep it controled at all.

Well..we could have a penal system that does nothing. That would be smaller government.

uhm

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?

no fair, you edited while I'll was replying.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Having a penal system is not big government. How we run it is.
We have far to many unconstitutional laws that we put people in jail for, so many that it's hard to grasp how we even manage to keep it controled at all.

Well..we could have a penal system that does nothing. That would be smaller government.

National defense is covered in the Constitution.

So we either have prisons or get Roman or muslim on our criminals.

 

[Two Thumbs]

It makes you wonder what they picture in their minds when they say Big Government?

A government whose size can't crush the economy.

One that regualates with in the bounds of the Constitution.

 

[Si modo]

It makes you wonder what they picture in their minds when they say Big Government?

Here, cupcake, just a tip of the iceberg:

The federal government made at least $72 billion in improper payments in 2008.[1]
Washington spends $92 billion on corporate welfare (excluding TARP) versus $71 billion on homeland security.[2]
Washington spends $25 billion annually maintaining unused or vacant federal properties.[3]
Government auditors spent the past five years examining all federal programs and found that 22 percent of them -- costing taxpayers a total of $123 billion annually -- fail to show any positive impact on the populations they serve.[4]
The Congressional Budget Office published a "Budget Options" series identifying more than $100 billion in potential spending cuts.[5]
Examples from multiple Government Accountability Office (GAO) reports of wasteful duplication include 342 economic development programs; 130 programs serving the disabled; 130 programs serving at-risk youth; 90 early childhood development programs; 75 programs funding international education, cultural, and training exchange activities; and 72 safe water programs.[6]
Washington will spend $2.6 million training Chinese prostitutes to drink more responsibly on the job.[7]
A GAO audit classified nearly half of all purchases on government credit cards as improper, fraudulent, or embezzled. Examples of taxpayer-funded purchases include gambling, mortgage payments, liquor, lingerie, iPods, Xboxes, jewelry, Internet dating services, and Hawaiian vacations. In one extraordinary example, the Postal Service spent $13,500 on one dinner at a Ruth's Chris Steakhouse, including "over 200 appetizers and over $3,000 of alcohol, including more than 40 bottles of wine costing more than $50 each and brand-name liquor such as Courvoisier, Belvedere and Johnny Walker Gold." The 81 guests consumed an average of $167 worth of food and drink apiece.[8]
Federal agencies are delinquent on nearly 20 percent of employee travel charge cards, costing taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars annually.[9]
The Securities and Exchange Commission spent $3.9 million rearranging desks and offices at its Washington, D.C., headquarters.[10]
The Pentagon recently spent $998,798 shipping two 19-cent washers from South Carolina to Texas and $293,451 sending an 89-cent washer from South Carolina to Florida.[11]
Over half of all farm subsidies go to commercial farms, which report average household incomes of $200,000.[12]
Health care fraud is estimated to cost taxpayers more than $60 billion annually.[13]
A GAO audit found that 95 Pentagon weapons systems suffered from a combined $295 billion in cost overruns.[14]
The refusal of many federal employees to fly coach costs taxpayers $146 million annually in flight upgrades.[15]
Washington will spend $126 million in 2009 to enhance the Kennedy family legacy in Massachusetts. Additionally, Senator John Kerry (D-MA) diverted $20 million from the 2010 defense budget to subsidize a new Edward M. Kennedy Institute.[16]
Federal investigators have launched more than 20 criminal fraud investigations related to the TARP financial bailout.[17]
Despite trillion-dollar deficits, last year's 10,160 earmarks included $200,000 for a tattoo removal program in Mission Hills, California; $190,000 for the Buffalo Bill Historical Center in Cody, Wyoming; and $75,000 for the Totally Teen Zone in Albany, Georgia.[18]
The federal government owns more than 50,000 vacant homes.[19]
The Federal Communications Commission spent $350,000 to sponsor NASCAR driver David Gilliland.[20]
Members of Congress have spent hundreds of thousands of taxpayer dollars supplying their offices with popcorn machines, plasma televisions, DVD equipment, ionic air fresheners, camcorders, and signature machines -- plus $24,730 leasing a Lexus, $1,434 on a digital camera, and $84,000 on personalized calendars.[21]
More than $13 billion in Iraq aid has been classified as wasted or stolen. Another $7.8 billion cannot be accounted for.[22]
Fraud related to Hurricane Katrina spending is estimated to top $2 billion. In addition, debit cards provided to hurricane victims were used to pay for Caribbean vacations, NFL tickets, Dom Perignon champagne, "Girls Gone Wild" videos, and at least one sex change operation.[23]
Auditors discovered that 900,000 of the 2.5 million recipients of emergency Katrina assistance provided false names, addresses, or Social Security numbers or submitted multiple applications.[24]
Congress recently gave Alaska Airlines $500,000 to paint a Chinook salmon on a Boeing 737.[25]
The Transportation Department will subsidize up to $2,000 per flight for direct flights between Washington, D.C., and the small hometown of Congressman Hal Rogers (R-KY) -- but only on Monday mornings and Friday evenings, when lawmakers, staff, and lobbyists usually fly. Rogers is a member of the Appropriations Committee, which writes the Transportation Department's budget.[26]
Washington has spent $3 billion re-sanding beaches -- even as this new sand washes back into the ocean.[27]
A Department of Agriculture report concedes that much of the $2.5 billion in "stimulus" funding for broadband Internet will be wasted.[28]
The Defense Department wasted $100 million on unused flight tickets and never bothered to collect refunds even though the tickets were refundable.[29]
Washington spends $60,000 per hour shooting Air Force One photo-ops in front of national landmarks.[30]
Over one recent 18-month period, Air Force and Navy personnel used government-funded credit cards to charge at least $102,400 on admission to entertainment events, $48,250 on gambling, $69,300 on cruises, and $73,950 on exotic dance clubs and prostitutes.[31]
Members of Congress are set to pay themselves $90 million to increase their franked mailings for the 2010 election year.[32]
Congress has ignored efficiency recommendations from the Department of Health and Human Services that would save $9 billion annually.[33]
Taxpayers are funding paintings of high-ranking government officials at a cost of up to $50,000 apiece.[34]
The state of Washington sent $1 food stamp checks to 250,000 households in order to raise state caseload figures and trigger $43 million in additional federal funds.[35]
Suburban families are receiving large farm subsidies for the grass in their backyards -- subsidies that many of these families never requested and do not want. [36]
Congress appropriated $20 million for "commemoration of success" celebrations related to Iraq and Afghanistan.[37]
Homeland Security employee purchases include 63-inch plasma TVs, iPods, and $230 for a beer brewing kit.[38]
Two drafting errors in the 2005 Deficit Reduction Act resulted in a $2 billion taxpayer cost.[39]
North Ridgeville, Ohio, received $800,000 in "stimulus" funds for a project that its mayor described as "a long way from the top priority."[40]
The National Institutes of Health spends $1.3 million per month to rent a lab that it cannot use.[41]
Congress recently spent $2.4 billion on 10 new jets that the Pentagon insists it does not need and will not use.[42]
Lawmakers diverted $13 million from Hurricane Katrina relief spending to build a museum celebrating the Army Corps of Engineers -- the agency partially responsible for the failed levees that flooded New Orleans.[43]
Medicare officials recently mailed $50 million in erroneous refunds to 230,000 Medicare recipients.[44]
Audits showed $34 billion worth of Department of Homeland Security contracts contained significant waste, fraud, and abuse.[45]
Washington recently spent $1.8 million to help build a private golf course in Atlanta, Georgia.[46]
The Advanced Technology Program spends $150 million annually subsidizing private businesses; 40 percent of this funding goes to Fortune 500 companies.[47]
Congressional investigators were able to receive $55,000 in federal student loan funding for a fictional college they created to test the Department of Education.[48]
The Conservation Reserve program pays farmers $2 billion annually not to farm their land.[49]
The Commerce Department has lost 1,137 computers since 2001, many containing Americans' personal data.[50]
​

50 Examples of Government Waste

 

[Wry Catcher]

Having a penal system is not big government. How we run it is.
We have far to many unconstitutional laws that we put people in jail for, so many that it's hard to grasp how we even manage to keep it controled at all.

Well..we could have a penal system that does nothing. That would be smaller government.

National defense is convered in the Constitution.

So we either have prisons or get Roman or muslim on our criminals.

We have a penal system (prison system, specifically) which does much worse than nothing. We incarcerate too many for too long in an evironment where violence is the norm and not an aberration. We then release them into society, many angry and with little or no skills or supervision.

 

[Kuros]

51 small but smart governments > 1 big, sprawling government

 

[Si modo]

Well..we could have a penal system that does nothing. That would be smaller government.

National defense is convered in the Constitution.

So we either have prisons or get Roman or muslim on our criminals.

We have a penal system (prison system, specifically) which does much worse than nothing. We incarcerate too many for too long in an evironment where violence is the norm and not an aberration. We then release them into society, many angry and with little or no skills or supervision.

Yup. Pretty bad shit. Granted, some are bad to the core and that is independent on the environment where they are. But, many others are worse characters than they were before incarceration, when released into society.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Well..we could have a penal system that does nothing. That would be smaller government.

National defense is convered in the Constitution.

So we either have prisons or get Roman or muslim on our criminals.

We have a penal system (prison system, specifically) which does much worse than nothing. We incarcerate too many for too long in an evironment where violence is the norm and not an aberration. We then release them into society, many angry and with little or no skills or supervision.

Most come from a environment full of violence and have no skills, and are already angry.

It's up to them to get skills and education, that's not on society or the prison system.

So do you choose the Roman or muslim way of dealing with criminals, since you don't support the prison system?