Do You Dislike/Hate A Person/Politician?

Discussion in 'Religion and Ethics' started by Eightball, Jul 21, 2008.

  1. Eightball
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    Eightball Senior Member

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    Anyone recall back when GWB was running for President, how the opposition stridently announced that Black Churches would be burned by the myriads, Blacks would be lynched and dragged behind P.U. trucks if GWB were elected?

    So much of the criticisms of GWB are subjective based, IMO.

    This WMD thing will not die, yet there is no evidence that GWB knew before-hand that the major WMD's were not present. Sure there's speculation, but what is speculation? What is it's intent?

    People "want" to believe that he lied, as they presume from the basis of a "dislike" for him.

    Also, the anti-Texan/Southerner/Redneck contingent in the media and one particular party is not covert by any means.
    *******
    I sure wish our media could get away from "yellow" journalism, and just editorialize the "yellow" part, and give us the straight bull on the front page right on to the back page of section one.
    ******
    People say they don't like or they hate GWB, and so often use very controversial, and unsubstantiated accusations.

    If one wants to lean on their intellectual prowess to prove a point, then this copius analysis, " I know they didn't find any evidence, but I still "feel/think" he's guilty.", seems to erode one's intellectual/cognitive respect.

    I didn't agree with Clinton's policies, or his personal actions that became very public while he was in the White House. I will say, that I never hated the man, but very much disliked what he did.

    As mentioned on thread in the past, I'd sit down and have a glass of wine, brewski, coca cola, etc, with William Jefferson Clinton if he invited me too. I'd actually enjoy the time too. I'll bet he's a pretty cool guy to meet and talk with.
    **********
    My biblical/Christian values don't force me, but implore me in my conscience to refrain from hate in many cases. When it comes to politicians doing things that I disagree with ethically or policy-wise, I have no ground to hate them personally.

    Eightball is not a Christian because he earned brownie points with the Man upstairs. In fact it's just the opposite. The Man upstairs made it plain to Eightball that he was not a clean vessel of a man in comparison to the very man Jesus whom the Man upstairs sent to earth 2,000 years ago to remind me what true human perfection was.

    So, knowing that by "grace" I'm accepted by the Man upstairs makes it very plain to Eightball, that hating Clinton, Teddy Kennedy, Obama.......is being a higher than Thou, attitude. Grace = Unmerited favor.
    ***********
    I'll let you in on something that came to me some years ago, before I ever joined a forum or there was even forums at all. P.C.'s were in their infancy, and there was no internet.

    As a younger biblical Christian man, having three young sons, a loving wife, and was on the verge of selling our house, and most of our worldly possessions and heading up to Oregon to attend bible college, it happened to be what President Ronald Reagan referred to as a National Day of Prayer for all Americans. (Sorry for the run-on sentence ) I was one firebrand of a Christian, and I was home alone, and decided, yep, I'm going to bow down by my living room fireplace and pray for my country and it's leaders. Do my Christian duty.

    I couldn't stand the liberal politicians at the time. Anything or anyone that espoused liberal rhetoric just turned me off and even angered me. I saw them as the enemy of my faith, and beliefs in general.

    So much younger Eightball knelt down by the cold fireplace in the afternoon, and started to pray for his country. I asked God to give our President wisdom in directing our country as well as all of our politicians in Congress, and all the branches of government.............But, something, a thought definetly interjected itself into my well-orchestrated prayer.........It was like a flashing billboard sign........and it resounded with the name, "What about Ted Kennedy!!!".

    I can't tell you how much I felt ashamed as a Christian man who espoused "love your neighbor and enemy", to all my friends and folks, yet in reality, I "hated" Senator Ted Kennedy! I hated him for his stance on abortion, and many other liberal slates, yet in one small moment in time, I know that God, intervened in my prayer time, and did some very important humbling and correcting of Eightball. Who was I to hate Ted Kennedy! God didn't tell me to like or approve of the policies or stances of Ted Kennedy, but He emphatically that day while I was on my knees, convince me clearly that I was a big old hypocrite for hating this man, whom I didn't personally know, but just didn't like/agree with his beliefs.

    This wasn't a young man maturing and mellowing in his beliefs either. This was a stark reality, and being made to reassess myself as well. I had pride with a big letter "P" growing in my soul, even though by shear grace I was welcomed into God's family through His Son's sacrifice.

    I had feigned humbleness and humility................yet was self-deceived all along.

    If God loved all of mankind, and that included Ted Kennedy, whom I totally disagreed with ethically and in so many other ways, what right did I have to hate him or dislike him? Ted Kennedy wasn't the hypocrite! Eightball was!

    Well, to end this personal monologue.......Suffice it to say, while on my knees, I started to actually be filled with "love" for Ted Kennedy.........Not love like a lover, but love as God loved Ted Kennedy. I saw Ted Kennedy as a mere man, fallible, maybe wrong in policies, maybe even very unbiblical in lifesytle, and choices, or unethical, yet he was "loved" by the Almighty, as much as I was loved.

    That was the turning point for me/Eightball. To this day, I still don't like the various policies of liberals, yet I do realize that they are mere men and women as myself. They are answerable to not me but a Higher One, and that Higher One, loves them with the same love that old "Pious" Eightball was loved by the Perfect "One".
    **********
    Anyway..........We come down to whether or not GWB deserves to be hated, disliked, or whatever. I don't agree with many of his policies, but I do see and observe a man who does have convictions that have been derided so many times and ways. He's a reformed alcoholic. I give him kudo's for conquering that nemesis. Being detoxed and making one's life anew, is not an easy feat from alcohol. In fact when the press maligned him for being once a drunkard, I witnessed a future president, humbly admitt his embarrassing, and humiliating alcoholic past to the entire nation. It nearly railroaded his election, yet it also revealed to others a humility that is rarely revealed in our highest leaders.

    Now Ted Kennedy is fighting for his life with a brain tumor. Sure, I don't agree with the man..........He's been made fun of by Rush Limbaugh, and others on the right, yet, he/Kennedy is a mere man of flesh and blood, no doubt believing his cause is just. I don't agree, but I can't hate the man. His family background is "rife" with pain.......two brothers coldly asassinated. A nephew killed in a tragic private plain crash. Sure their money came from Old Man Kennedy's boot legging operations, and they've, for the most part had their money given to them on a platter. Even Chappequitic (Sorry, it's mispelled ), is a sore point. Ted has some things there to answer too, but he's just proven one point very important point. We are all fallible..........becasue we are all human. We do some things stupidly with out foresight , and other things very knowingly. Jesus we ain't, Jesus we need.......That's my take. Had to interject that little stab of evangelism in here.

    Anyway...........I don't hate politicians.........I do however hate evil, and I do believe that some people allow this power or entity in our universe to have it's way with them more than others do, yet we are all "ripe" for the picking when it comes to bad temptations.

    I think it is evil to kick or beat a man/woman whose down. Call it piling on or whatever. It even happens in forums to a milder degree. I believe it's evil to perceive or guess via intuition and no other evidence to accuse another of a wrong. I believe that its is wrong to propagate a belief that hurts another's reputation based solely on one's subjective feelings or past hurts. I believe that self-protection is also skewed by many to mean it is revenge taking or judgementalism.

    Whatever the case/cause, I have realized that years of school, myriads of book reading, don't make a person necessarily wise. In fact a high Mensa score doesn't transform a person from idiotic behavior. Wisdom is taking that knowledge gained and using it in positive, uplifting ways, that encourages, supports, and commits to things or causes that benefit not necessarily me, but others. If my Savior was willing to humble Himself and wash the feet of his disciples with the message that every man/woman should be a servant in some capacity towards his fellow man/woman, then I should think seriously on that point.

    I didn't agree with JFK in all things, but.........This is awesome!

    In President John F. Kennedy's Inaugural Address, he provided what is quite possibly one of his most famous quotes:

    "My fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you -- ask what can you do for your country."

    This was followed up by,

    "My fellow citizens of the world, ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man."

    It is noteworthy that the second line is routinely ignored or simply unknown -- and for that matter, the existence of any antecedents including that of Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.:

    "It is now the moment ...to recall what our country has done for each of us, and to ask ourselves what we can do for our country in return."
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  2. Ravi
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    Ravi Diamond Member

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    No, I don't recall this.
     
  3. editec
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    editec Mr. Forgot-it-All

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    No

    Yes

    It was his job to know before he invaded, I think.

    True

    I'm not sure I understand the above.
    *******
    I just wish they were competent
    ******
    True

    I've bashed the Bush a lot. They deserved it.

    Me too. I called for him to resign when he got caught lying to us about Monica. It was unseemly. Overall I thought he was a fair POTUS though

    Agreed. Probably same with Bush.

    **********
    Hard to hate people you don't know personally

    Good God ya' got there, sport.

    Ah yes, the FIRST sin. That's GOT to be the hardest one to avoid.

    Well...to err IS human.

    I should only be as reasonable in real life as I can something be when I'm writing on boards. I find it ever so much easier to think reasonably and then actually BE reasonable, when I have to to ponder, and edit my thoughts in ascii.

    **********
    Beats a more Clintonian response which would have been " I tried alcohol once, but I didn't swallow. "

    The man has a way with words, ya know.

    Good post, 8ball
     
  4. midcan5
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    midcan5 liberal / progressive

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    I never heard any of this either and I don't think many people or the press hate Bush, I think some think he is a buffoon but he gives them evidence for that all the time. MSM in my opinion is all over the place and hardly into Bush bashing but when only 30% of the populous think you're doing Ok then I think Bush and his apologists need to look at Bush.
     
  5. Gunny
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    Gunny Gold Member

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    Really? I think we ought to look at the so-called 70% as well. Not seeing shit where there isn't any isn't being an apologist and I went through this same crap listen to neocon-bots accuse Clinton of every dirty deed in the book.

    Apply the same standard to Bush as you do your own. He's really no better nor worse.

    The dude pisses me off on more than a couple of key issues. But I'd STILL vote for him again if he was running against Obama. It AIN'T that Bush is better. I don't know what part of that some of you aren't getting. Get a candidate worth a fuck and I'll be more than happy to vote for him/her.

    Oh, that's right ... y'all had one that could have gotten a lot of centrist/independent/moderate votes and you blew that out your asses, didn't you?
     
  6. SkyWater
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    SkyWater Member

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    I never heard of the black churches/lynching stories either. Are links available?

    I agree with the general message of not hating but that is, unfortunately, what much of politics is based upon these days. As for WMD, it cannot be claimed there is no evidence the absence of WMD was known prior to the invasion. There are several avenues available from credible sources as well as common sense that show the Admin knew WMD were not present. Moreover, it was not Bush who first publicly proclaimed the threat, but Cheney. And he did it without Bush's knowledge. What makes that even more dubious is Tim Russert interviewed Cheney on 9/16/01 and asked straight up if Saddam had anything to do with 9E and if Saddam was a threat. Cheney answered no to both questions and went so far as to say Saddam is "bottled up."

    So yes, allowing hate to trump discourse is harmful on all sides but it has become fashionable for Bush supporters to just accuse people of hating him as a way of deflecting dialogue and obfuscating the available facts. As for Bush himself, I simply feel sympathy for the guy. Cheney took over on 9E and never gave the reins back to Bush. I believe Dubya truly believes in the "War on Terror" rhetoric and that he believes he is doing good. But the guy is simply void of intellectual curiosity and cannot hold a press conference unless it is scripted...as he himself has admitted to doing during a press conference.
     
  7. Paulie
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    Paulie Platinum Member

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    Being that you are a political junkie, and that being one is obviously being in the minority in this country, perhaps it would behoove you to do what most people WON'T...and that is to hit the streets and get involved in politics in your community and beyond as much as you possibly can.

    There are plenty of people who do the establishment's bidding, who are probably being paid well enough to do so, and that's why we always get the worst candidates in the General.

    For people like us, who are independent of anything the establishment does, there are a lot of things we can do to keep candidates like Obama and McCain from reaching a nomination.

    Read about what's been going on in Nevada's Republican Party circles the past couple months. It's probably been the biggest public challenge of big party status quo in a long time. It's comprised not only of Ron Paul people, but Romney, Thompson, Huckabee, Hunter, etc, people as well. All people who would have rather seen ANY Republican get that state's nod besides McCain.

    It's not like people aren't trying. It's just that not ENOUGH are. If we are content to sit back and let the big brass decide who our nominees are going to be, then those of us who did nothing to try and stop that ought to keep our mouths shut, because we DID HAVE CHOICES.

    If even us political junkies aren't willing to go an extra mile when we see our country is in some serious political trouble, then who the fuck WILL? And how the fuck will anything ever change for the good?

    We find politics to be enjoying and often times FUN. But just not fun enough to skip out on American Idol and attend party meetings and conventions, though. It starts at the local level. You infiltrate your local party, and you do whatever you can do to indoctrinate your ideas into the platform.

    Shit, these days all we're really asking is for the Republican Party to actually meet the desires of conservatives. It wasn't very hard just 10-15 years ago, so why should it really be that hard now? All they need to see is enough people demanding it, and enough people threatening to abandon them if they don't meet our needs. It's as simple as that, really. It's the kind of thing this country was founded upon. ACTIVISM.

    I enjoy it whether I affect changes or not, because I can't imagine anything I could be doing otherwise that would be as worthwhile to the country I call home.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2008
  8. Eightball
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    Eightball Senior Member

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    Skywater: I've posted links elsewhere, but will just let you know that if you type in anything to do with "Black Churhes burning" etc., in a search engine you'll get thousands of hits. Many of those hits are off of forums or chatrooms, but if you glean through those websites you'll follow the scent or trail back to the NAACP and their ads that they did during Presidential Election times. As you know the NCAAP and a certain major political party are connected at the hip presently and back then.
     
  9. sealybobo
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    sealybobo Diamond Member

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    Why did Scott McClellan and Colon Powell both say bush lied to the public when selling us on invading Iraq?
     
  10. AllieBaba
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    AllieBaba BANNED

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    I remember it. I remember all the scare tactics they used.
    Ravi, you just don't remember it because you were still in diapers.
     

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