Do You Consider the Destruction of Israel a "Personal Tragedy?"

[editec]

The question brought to our attention in this thread is whether or not support for Isreal is fading.

Arguing the merit of positions of either the Israels or the Palestinians doesn't address that question.

The REAL QUESTION in this thread is this: Is public support for the Israel fading?

Frankly, I doubt it much matters WHAT the public thinks.


All that really matters is what the geopolitical needs of the national players are.

The USA is not about to let Israel go down the chute.

70 years of continued support by the USA is all the evidence one needs to arrive at that conclusion.

 

[georgephillip]

What you are saying is accurate only as long as American voters continue to "choose" between Republican OR Democrat in the voting booth. The geopolitical need$ of America's riche$t 1% depend on eternal war and endless debt. 90% to 99% of Americans would be better off if the Jewish state disappeared into the same sewer as White South Africa, imho.

 

[georgephillip]

Or we could blame Zionists for inflicting a Jewish state by force of arms on two-thirds of the population of Palestine in 1948. Jews owned 7% of the land of Palestine in 1948 yet received 55% from the UN partition plan. Zionists made it clear they wanted all the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan for decades before the UN got involved.

What's next...Damascus?

Get yer facts straight,Georgie.
78% of the Palestine Mandate was given to the Hashemites of Saudi Arabia (the rulers of what is known as the Kingdom of Jordan now.) for their helping the British in World War I. The other 22% was supposed to be divided in half -- 11% to the Jews, 11% to the Arabs. The Jews accepted this, but the Arabs didn't and that is why all those Arab armies tried to destroy Israel in 1948. Are you by any chance trying to change history?

I don't think I'm the one trying to rewrite history in this case, Hoss.

"The land allocated to the Arab state in the final plan included about 43% of Mandatory Palestine[17] and consisted of all of the highlands, except for Jerusalem, plus one third of the coastline.

"The highlands contain the major aquifers of Palestine, which supplied water to the coastal cities of central Palestine, including Tel Aviv.[18][unreliable source?]

"The Jewish state was to receive 56% of Mandatory Palestine, a slightly larger area to accommodate the increasing numbers of Jews who would immigrate there.

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

56% of the land for one-third of the population of Mandate Palestine?
Jews owned only about 7% of the land in Palestine in 1948.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Or we could blame Zionists for inflicting a Jewish state by force of arms on two-thirds of the population of Palestine in 1948. Jews owned 7% of the land of Palestine in 1948 yet received 55% from the UN partition plan. Zionists made it clear they wanted all the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan for decades before the UN got involved.

What's next...Damascus?

Get yer facts straight,Georgie.
78% of the Palestine Mandate was given to the Hashemites of Saudi Arabia (the rulers of what is known as the Kingdom of Jordan now.) for their helping the British in World War I. The other 22% was supposed to be divided in half -- 11% to the Jews, 11% to the Arabs. The Jews accepted this, but the Arabs didn't and that is why all those Arab armies tried to destroy Israel in 1948. Are you by any chance trying to change history?

I don't think I'm the one trying to rewrite history in this case, Hoss.

"The land allocated to the Arab state in the final plan included about 43% of Mandatory Palestine[17] and consisted of all of the highlands, except for Jerusalem, plus one third of the coastline.

"The highlands contain the major aquifers of Palestine, which supplied water to the coastal cities of central Palestine, including Tel Aviv.[18][unreliable source?]

"The Jewish state was to receive 56% of Mandatory Palestine, a slightly larger area to accommodate the increasing numbers of Jews who would immigrate there.

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

56% of the land for one-third of the population of Mandate Palestine?
Jews owned only about 7% of the land in Palestine in 1948.

The thing about the partition plan (UN resolution 181) is that it is irrelevant. The plan was approved by the General Assembly but was rejected by the Security Council. It was never implemented. It means nothing.

 

[Rocko]

baloney! But thanks for giving us something to laugh at while radical islamists are killing themselves & us infidels all over the world today.

less than half of young us jews in a 2007 poll answered that question with a "yes."

"the(2008) gaza massacre provoked unprecedented opposition around the world -- in britain, students occupied buildings in more than a dozen universities across the country -- but, as finkelstein documents in the second part of the book, this opposition did not come out of the blue.

"rather, it 'marked the nadir of a curve plotting a steady decline in support for israel', not only in europe, where israel consistently ranks among the least popular states in the world, but also in the us.13

"most strikingly, american jews are becoming increasingly ambivalent or even hostile towards israel, to the point where less than half of young american jews polled in 2007 answered that they would consider the destruction of israel a 'personal tragedy'"

jamie stern-weiner, "one massacre too many"

do you laugh at the number of muslims who've been murdered for money and market share by the heroic us military since 1991?

Which country is the greatest purveyor of violence on this planet?

fuck you.

 

[georgephillip]

Less than half of young US Jews in a 2007 poll answered that question with a "yes."

"The(2008) Gaza massacre provoked unprecedented opposition around the world -- in Britain, students occupied buildings in more than a dozen universities across the country -- but, as Finkelstein documents in the second part of the book, this opposition did not come out of the blue.

"Rather, it 'marked the nadir of a curve plotting a steady decline in support for Israel', not only in Europe, where Israel consistently ranks among the least popular states in the world, but also in the US.13

"Most strikingly, American Jews are becoming increasingly ambivalent or even hostile towards Israel, to the point where less than half of young American Jews polled in 2007 answered that they would consider the destruction of Israel a 'personal tragedy'"

Jamie Stern-Weiner, "One Massacre Too Many"

Polls? You spoke about polls? Try this one for size.

Israel/Palestinians

The 61% approval rating Americans give to Israel is due to the steady stream of corporate propaganda that most Americans rely on for their understanding of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. How many of those 1029 adults polled by Gallop know of an Arab peace plan offered at the UN in 1976, for example?

"The basic principles (of a two-state solution) have been accepted by virtually the entire world, including the Arab states (who go on to call for full normalization of relations), the Organization of Islamic States (including Iran), and relevant non-state actors (including Hamas).

"A settlement along these lines was first proposed at the U.N. Security Council in January 1976 by the major Arab states.

"Israel refused to attend the session.

"The U.S. vetoed the resolution, and did so again in 1980. The record at the General Assembly since is similar."

A Middle East Peace That Could Happen (But Won't): In Washington-Speak, "Palestinian State" Means "Fried Chicken"

 

[georgephillip]

Get yer facts straight,Georgie.
78% of the Palestine Mandate was given to the Hashemites of Saudi Arabia (the rulers of what is known as the Kingdom of Jordan now.) for their helping the British in World War I. The other 22% was supposed to be divided in half -- 11% to the Jews, 11% to the Arabs. The Jews accepted this, but the Arabs didn't and that is why all those Arab armies tried to destroy Israel in 1948. Are you by any chance trying to change history?

I don't think I'm the one trying to rewrite history in this case, Hoss.

"The land allocated to the Arab state in the final plan included about 43% of Mandatory Palestine[17] and consisted of all of the highlands, except for Jerusalem, plus one third of the coastline.

"The highlands contain the major aquifers of Palestine, which supplied water to the coastal cities of central Palestine, including Tel Aviv.[18][unreliable source?]

"The Jewish state was to receive 56% of Mandatory Palestine, a slightly larger area to accommodate the increasing numbers of Jews who would immigrate there.

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

56% of the land for one-third of the population of Mandate Palestine?
Jews owned only about 7% of the land in Palestine in 1948.

The thing about the partition plan (UN resolution 181) is that it is irrelevant. The plan was approved by the General Assembly but was rejected by the Security Council. It was never implemented. It means nothing.

What percentage of Mandate Palestine did the Jewish state receive in 1948?
If nothing else, Resolution 181 shows a large percentage of the General Assembly was willing to give 33% of the population of Mandate Palestine 56% of the land. What reason did the Security Council offer for its rejection of 181?

 

[P F Tinmore]

I don't think I'm the one trying to rewrite history in this case, Hoss.

"The land allocated to the Arab state in the final plan included about 43% of Mandatory Palestine[17] and consisted of all of the highlands, except for Jerusalem, plus one third of the coastline.

"The highlands contain the major aquifers of Palestine, which supplied water to the coastal cities of central Palestine, including Tel Aviv.[18][unreliable source?]

"The Jewish state was to receive 56% of Mandatory Palestine, a slightly larger area to accommodate the increasing numbers of Jews who would immigrate there.

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

56% of the land for one-third of the population of Mandate Palestine?
Jews owned only about 7% of the land in Palestine in 1948.

The thing about the partition plan (UN resolution 181) is that it is irrelevant. The plan was approved by the General Assembly but was rejected by the Security Council. It was never implemented. It means nothing.

What percentage of Mandate Palestine did the Jewish state receive in 1948?
If nothing else, Resolution 181 shows a large percentage of the General Assembly was willing to give 33% of the population of Mandate Palestine 56% of the land. What reason did the Security Council offer for its rejection of 181?

The plan required the acceptance from both sides. It was not. The plan would have to be implemented by military force and that was beyond the authority of the UN. That would have violated the UN charter.

BTW, since the plan was never implemented, no land was given to Israel.

 

[georgephillip]

baloney! But thanks for giving us something to laugh at while radical islamists are killing themselves & us infidels all over the world today.

do you laugh at the number of muslims who've been murdered for money and market share by the heroic us military since 1991?

Which country is the greatest purveyor of violence on this planet?

fuck you.

Why don't you ask Alvin (or the Gipper) how many millions of innocent human beings have been maimed, murdered, incarcerated, or displaced by the US military since 1945?

If you're afraid of that question, try this one: which country is the greatest purveyor of violence on this planet?

They both have the same answer.

 

[editec]

Trying to find the historically HIGHER MORAL GROUND in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complete waste of time.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Palestinian struggle to achieve self-determination in Palestine was further legitimated by United Nations Resolution 2787 of December 6, 1971, which was reaffirmed in UNGA 2955 (XXVII) of December 12, 1972. The 1971 resolution

1. Confirms the legality of the peoples’ struggle for self-determination and liberation from colonial and foreign domination and alien subjugation, notably in southern Africa ..., as well as the Palestinian people, by all available means consistent with the Charter of the United Nations;

2. Affirms man’s basic human right to fight for the self-determination of his people under colonial and foreign domination;

3. Calls upon all States dedicated to the ideals of freedom and peace to give all their political, moral and material assistance to peoples struggling for liberation, self-determination and independence against colonial and alien domination.

What Are The Palestinian Collective and Individual Rights Under International Law by Faith Zeadey and Elaine Hagopian

 

[GHook93]

I consider reading your posts a personal tragedy! A man who worked for minimum wage until he collected minimum amount of social security (as you fully admit how you lived your meaningless life) is a TRUE personal tragedy!

Less than half of young US Jews in a 2007 poll answered that question with a "yes."

"The(2008) Gaza massacre provoked unprecedented opposition around the world -- in Britain, students occupied buildings in more than a dozen universities across the country -- but, as Finkelstein documents in the second part of the book, this opposition did not come out of the blue.

"Rather, it 'marked the nadir of a curve plotting a steady decline in support for Israel', not only in Europe, where Israel consistently ranks among the least popular states in the world, but also in the US.13

"Most strikingly, American Jews are becoming increasingly ambivalent or even hostile towards Israel, to the point where less than half of young American Jews polled in 2007 answered that they would consider the destruction of Israel a 'personal tragedy'"

Jamie Stern-Weiner, "One Massacre Too Many"

 

[Hossfly]

I don't think I'm the one trying to rewrite history in this case, Hoss.

"The land allocated to the Arab state in the final plan included about 43% of Mandatory Palestine[17] and consisted of all of the highlands, except for Jerusalem, plus one third of the coastline.

"The highlands contain the major aquifers of Palestine, which supplied water to the coastal cities of central Palestine, including Tel Aviv.[18][unreliable source?]

"The Jewish state was to receive 56% of Mandatory Palestine, a slightly larger area to accommodate the increasing numbers of Jews who would immigrate there.

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

56% of the land for one-third of the population of Mandate Palestine?
Jews owned only about 7% of the land in Palestine in 1948.

The thing about the partition plan (UN resolution 181) is that it is irrelevant. The plan was approved by the General Assembly but was rejected by the Security Council. It was never implemented. It means nothing.

What percentage of Mandate Palestine did the Jewish state receive in 1948?
If nothing else, Resolution 181 shows a large percentage of the General Assembly was willing to give 33% of the population of Mandate Palestine 56% of the land. What reason did the Security Council offer for its rejection of 181?

Georgie, I am still waiting for you to admit that the Hashemite Arabs from Saudi Arabia received 78% of the Palestine Mandate which is now the Kingdom of Jordan. You can also tell us all about how the Arabs came in droves from their poor surrounding countries for the jobs that the Jews had for them. Even Winston Churchill wrote about this. BTW are you aware of the fact that the only Palestinians at the time were the Jews,and if you called an Arab,"Palestinian", you would have been insulting him because you would be insinuating that he was a Jew? I am sure you knew these things or could look them up but you are too immersed in taqiyyah to change your rantings.

 

[georgephillip]

I consider reading your posts a personal tragedy! A man who worked for minimum wage until he collected minimum amount of social security (as you fully admit how you lived your meaningless life) is a TRUE personal tragedy!

Less than half of young US Jews in a 2007 poll answered that question with a "yes."

"The(2008) Gaza massacre provoked unprecedented opposition around the world -- in Britain, students occupied buildings in more than a dozen universities across the country -- but, as Finkelstein documents in the second part of the book, this opposition did not come out of the blue.

"Rather, it 'marked the nadir of a curve plotting a steady decline in support for Israel', not only in Europe, where Israel consistently ranks among the least popular states in the world, but also in the US.13

"Most strikingly, American Jews are becoming increasingly ambivalent or even hostile towards Israel, to the point where less than half of young American Jews polled in 2007 answered that they would consider the destruction of Israel a 'personal tragedy'"

Jamie Stern-Weiner, "One Massacre Too Many"

For me, it's slaves (like you) who automatically equate money with meaning that present a personal tragedy. Do you have any thoughts on why fewer than 50% of young US Jews today would regard the destruction of Israel as their personal tragedy?

 

[Hossfly]

I consider reading your posts a personal tragedy! A man who worked for minimum wage until he collected minimum amount of social security (as you fully admit how you lived your meaningless life) is a TRUE personal tragedy!

Less than half of young US Jews in a 2007 poll answered that question with a "yes."

"The(2008) Gaza massacre provoked unprecedented opposition around the world -- in Britain, students occupied buildings in more than a dozen universities across the country -- but, as Finkelstein documents in the second part of the book, this opposition did not come out of the blue.

"Rather, it 'marked the nadir of a curve plotting a steady decline in support for Israel', not only in Europe, where Israel consistently ranks among the least popular states in the world, but also in the US.13

"Most strikingly, American Jews are becoming increasingly ambivalent or even hostile towards Israel, to the point where less than half of young American Jews polled in 2007 answered that they would consider the destruction of Israel a 'personal tragedy'"

Jamie Stern-Weiner, "One Massacre Too Many"

For me, it's slaves (like you) who automatically equate money with meaning that present a personal tragedy. Do you have any thoughts on why fewer than 50% of young US Jews today would regard the destruction of Israel as their personal tragedy?

Are you still blabbering on about this? Perhaps you are not sharp enough to realize that so many young American Jews go to college, and they have these Leftist Jewish professors who are always talking down Israel. The Amcha Initiative · Professor posts anti-Semitic material on CSUN website No doubt, unless you are very, very dimwitted, you realize young people are very, very impressionable. Perhaps you should start telling us why the majority of Americans stick up for Israel.

 

[Hossfly]

Get serious. The majority of Palestinians residing on Israel's land came from the West Bank & Gaza after the Arab/Israeli wars. Nearly 4 million.. A bunch of squatters rejected by their own Arab brothers in Jordan & Egypt.

There seems to be a pattern of behavior engaged in by some elite (read rich) Jews over the centuries that results in the historical calamities that you document. It is worth pointing out how Jews were also known to inflict many of the same sufferings on their victims ranging from the Canaanites three thousand years ago to Palestinians today. The choice facing Israel today (imho) is whether it wants to exist as a Jewish state or as a democratic one. If it chooses the latter, the four million inhabitants of the occupied territories must receive the right to vote in Israeli elections.

Ever heard of Al Nakba?

"The 1948 Palestinian exodus, known in Arabic as the Nakba (Arabic: النكبة*, an-Nakbah, lit. 'disaster', 'catastrophe', or 'cataclysm'),[1] occurred when approximately 711,000 to 725,000 Palestinian Arabs left, fled or were expelled from their homes, during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and the Civil War that preceded it.[2] The exact number of refugees is a matter of dispute.[3] The causes remain the subject of fundamental disagreement between Arabs and Israelis."

1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anyone can put what they want to in Wikipedia. However, many of us have the prerogative of going to other sites. You can visit Israel and ask the Arabs who didn't leave why they stayed. I think you might get the true story from them. And while you are visiting Israel, why not ask the Bahaiis and Ahmadis how come they built beautiful Houses of Worship in Israel while their members are being murdered in other Muslim countries for their beliefs.
The Palestinian Refugees

 

[P F Tinmore]

I consider reading your posts a personal tragedy! A man who worked for minimum wage until he collected minimum amount of social security (as you fully admit how you lived your meaningless life) is a TRUE personal tragedy!

For me, it's slaves (like you) who automatically equate money with meaning that present a personal tragedy. Do you have any thoughts on why fewer than 50% of young US Jews today would regard the destruction of Israel as their personal tragedy?

Are you still blabbering on about this? Perhaps you are not sharp enough to realize that so many young American Jews go to college, and they have these Leftist Jewish professors who are always talking down Israel. The Amcha Initiative · Professor posts anti-Semitic material on CSUN website No doubt, unless you are very, very dimwitted, you realize young people are very, very impressionable. Perhaps you should start telling us why the majority of Americans stick up for Israel.

Perhaps you should start telling us why the majority of Americans stick up for Israel.

Sure, they have been misled.

 

[georgephillip]

The thing about the partition plan (UN resolution 181) is that it is irrelevant. The plan was approved by the General Assembly but was rejected by the Security Council. It was never implemented. It means nothing.

What percentage of Mandate Palestine did the Jewish state receive in 1948?
If nothing else, Resolution 181 shows a large percentage of the General Assembly was willing to give 33% of the population of Mandate Palestine 56% of the land. What reason did the Security Council offer for its rejection of 181?

Georgie, I am still waiting for you to admit that the Hashemite Arabs from Saudi Arabia received 78% of the Palestine Mandate which is now the Kingdom of Jordan. You can also tell us all about how the Arabs came in droves from their poor surrounding countries for the jobs that the Jews had for them. Even Winston Churchill wrote about this. BTW are you aware of the fact that the only Palestinians at the time were the Jews,and if you called an Arab,"Palestinian", you would have been insulting him because you would be insinuating that he was a Jew? I am sure you knew these things or could look them up but you are too immersed in taqiyyah to change your rantings.

Britain subdivided their original mandate into two administrative areas with the land west of the Jordan River remaining under British direct control until 1948. I'm still waiting for you to explain why one-third of the population west of the Jordan was allowed to inflict a Jewish state on their fellow Palestinians by force of arms. Then maybe you can explain the morality of rich white war mongers like Winnie deciding the fate of millions of Arabs. You do know Winnie encouraged the use of chemical warfare on Iraq's Arab population, right?

Arab migration was also influenced by British projects like building the port at Haifa during the 20s and operating it during WWII. I had never heard your allegation "only Jews are Palestinians." Does Bibi know?

 

[georgephillip]

Actually yes, as much as I could appreciate a calamity like that. When you look back at their history over the past 3,000 years, the number of times they were taken from their own land and made slaves, their holy temples destroyed and their population scattered to every part of the world (even a population into India in 700 BC), and then the persecution and hostility they suffered as outcasts (burnings at the stake, ghettos where their people were locked up at night, not allowed to be on any street outside those ghettos, forbidden from riding a horse in a city street, forced to wear "badges" to be easily identified), the times their people were ejected again and again from countries which called themselves "civilized" (almost every country present or extinct) then I look at destruction of Israel, if it should occur, as a testament that the human race is violently self destructive, and I hope that will not be the case, for them and for all of us.

There seems to be a pattern of behavior engaged in by some elite (read rich) Jews over the centuries that results in the historical calamities that you document. It is worth pointing out how Jews were also known to inflict many of the same sufferings on their victims ranging from the Canaanites three thousand years ago to Palestinians today. The choice facing Israel today (imho) is whether it wants to exist as a Jewish state or as a democratic one. If it chooses the latter, the four million inhabitants of the occupied territories must receive the right to vote in Israeli elections.

George can you list the calamities and suffering the Jews have imposed on other peoples over the centuries. Other than when the Jews invaded Canaan 3000 years ago ( which they later mixed with the Canaanites) which is not actual or factual history, it's simply a story from the OT. Thanks.

Are you saying Moses was a myth?

The suffering inflicted by Israel over the last sixty years includes 711,111 Palestinians displaced from their homes in 1948, a series of provocations ranging from Suez in 1956 to the murder of 34 US citizens serving on the USS Liberty in 1967, to the invasion and occupation of Lebanon in the 80s, to Gaza in 2008.

With the notable exception of the US, Israel has been the biggest sponsor of terrorism on the face of the planet over the last half century.

 

[Hossfly]

For me, it's slaves (like you) who automatically equate money with meaning that present a personal tragedy. Do you have any thoughts on why fewer than 50% of young US Jews today would regard the destruction of Israel as their personal tragedy?

Are you still blabbering on about this? Perhaps you are not sharp enough to realize that so many young American Jews go to college, and they have these Leftist Jewish professors who are always talking down Israel. The Amcha Initiative · Professor posts anti-Semitic material on CSUN website No doubt, unless you are very, very dimwitted, you realize young people are very, very impressionable. Perhaps you should start telling us why the majority of Americans stick up for Israel.

Perhaps you should start telling us why the majority of Americans stick up for Israel.

Sure, they have been misled.

They recognize a civilized society as opposed to a bunch of savages trying to destroy a country. It's too bad that a retired Naval Intelligence Officer is no longer posting. As he previously said -- if Americans only knew how much Israel has helped the U.S. they would want to give Israel everything that country needs to defend itself. No doubt you would rather see Israel go down the drain.