Do you believe the legislation of Congress ( re: healthcare ) ...

[BasicGreatGuy]

falls within one of their 18 enumerated powers? If so, which one? Has President Obama cited which parts of the Constitution he believes gives the federal government the enumerated right to dictate such policies? If so, I haven't seen or heard him cite such.

 

[Oscar Wao]

Here's the list:

-The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

-To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

-To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

-To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

-To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

-To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

-To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

-To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

-To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

-To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

-To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

-To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

-To provide and maintain a Navy;

-To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

-To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

-To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

-To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

-To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

I'd say a perversion of the "provide for the General Welfare" part would be their defense.

 

[rightwinger]

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States

There you have it. Health care is a basic human right and necessary for the general welfare of the people

Even the Declaration of Independence calls out "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"

 

[Oscar Wao]

There you have it. Health care is a basic human right

No, it isn't. It's a good or service. In that case, I have the "right" to pretty much anything I want (goods and services). The problem in this country is that we've perverted what the word "right" is and what is contained in that classification.

and necessary for the general welfare of the people

That depends on what "general welfare" in the old rag means.

Even the Declaration of Independence calls out "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"

The PURSUIT of happiness, meaning, you have to pursue it yourself.

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States

There you have it. Health care is a basic human right and necessary for the general welfare of the people

Even the Declaration of Independence calls out "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"

Madison explains in Federalist Papers #41, that your aforementioned interpretation is incorrect.

"Had no other enumeration or definition of the powers of the Congress been found in the Constitution, than the general expressions just cited, the authors of the objection might have had some color for it; though it would have been difficult to find a reason for so awkward a form of describing an authority to legislate in all possible cases. A power to destroy the freedom of the press, the trial by jury, or even to regulate the course of descents, or the forms of conveyances, must be very singularly expressed by the terms "to raise money for the general welfare."

But what color can the objection have, when a specification of the objects alluded to by these general terms immediately follows, and is not even separated by a longer pause than a semicolon? If the different parts of the same instrument ought to be so expounded, as to give meaning to every part which will bear it, shall one part of the same sentence be excluded altogether from a share in the meaning; and shall the more doubtful and indefinite terms be retained in their full extent, and the clear and precise expressions be denied any signification whatsoever? For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power? Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars. But the idea of an enumeration of particulars which neither explain nor qualify the general meaning, and can have no other effect than to confound and mislead, is an absurdity, which, as we are reduced to the dilemma of charging either on the authors of the objection or on the authors of the Constitution, we must take the liberty of supposing, had not its origin with the latter.

The objection here is the more extraordinary, as it appears that the language used by the convention is a copy from the articles of Confederation. The objects of the Union among the States, as described in article third, are "their common defense, security of their liberties, and mutual and general welfare." The terms of article eighth are still more identical: "All charges of war and all other expenses that shall be incurred for the common defense or general welfare, and allowed by the United States in Congress, shall be defrayed out of a common treasury," etc. A similar language again occurs in article ninth. Construe either of these articles by the rules which would justify the construction put on the new Constitution, and they vest in the existing Congress a power to legislate in all cases whatsoever. But what would have been thought of that assembly, if, attaching themselves to these general expressions, and disregarding the specifications which ascertain and limit their import, they had exercised an unlimited power of providing for the common defense and general welfare? I appeal to the objectors themselves, whether they would in that case have employed the same reasoning in justification of Congress as they now make use of against the convention. How difficult it is for error to escape its own condemnation!"

 

[Zoom-boing]

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States

There you have it. Health care is a basic human right and necessary for the general welfare of the people

That's not what it says.

It says that Congress will provide for the common defense and general welfare of the U.S. - meaning, they will protect us from enemies and keep us safe. Has nothing to do with health care.

Even the Declaration of Independence calls out "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"

"the pursuit" of happiness; not a guarantee of it.

 

[Fatality]

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States

There you have it. Health care is a basic human right and necessary for the general welfare of the people

Even the Declaration of Independence calls out "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"

yes, the right to life, something you have denied 50 million babies so far

 

[Oddball]

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States

There you have it. Health care is a basic human right and necessary for the general welfare of the people.

Never read Federalist #41, have you?

Even the Declaration of Independence calls out "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"

You have a right to life, but no right to wave a gun in the face of your neighbor to force him to maintain your life for you.

 

[goldcatt]

It's not general welfare, it falls under interstate commerce in Art 1 Sec 8 Cl 3.
As it's currently applied, that gives Congress huge power to regulate and govern any and all goods and services that do, can or potentially could ever cross state lines. I'm not convinced it was originally intended to be read that broadly, but reality doesn't depend on my opinion of it.

 

[rightwinger]

Even the Declaration of Independence calls out "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"
"the pursuit" of happiness; not a guarantee of it.

I believe healthcare applies to "Life"

 

[WillowTree]

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States

There you have it. Health care is a basic human right and necessary for the general welfare of the people

Even the Declaration of Independence calls out "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"

then why are they trying to take it away?

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States

Never read Federalist #41, have you?

Even the Declaration of Independence calls out "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"

You have a right to life, but no right to wave a gun in the face of your neighbor to force him to maintain your life for you.

But...but...what about the children? You do good hater! The intellectual surf is up for Dude.

 

[Oddball]

Yeah....I hate the blessed cheeeeeelllldrrreeeennn and kick cats.

 

[goldcatt]

Yeah....I hate the blessed cheeeeeelllldrrreeeennn and kick cats.

As long as it's not the other way around!

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

Even the Declaration of Independence calls out "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"
"the pursuit" of happiness; not a guarantee of it.

I believe healthcare applies to "Life"

We are governed by the Constitution. It is the supreme law of the land, not the Declaration of Independence.

According to Article 1, Section 8, the legislative branch does not have the enumerated right to provide healthcare to everyone. I have already sourced the proper reasoning for that position. If we try and following your line of reasoning, what was the point of the enumerating specific limits of power by the legislative branch, if as you say, said branch can do whatever it feels is in the best interest of the "general Welfare"?

 

[Citizen]

Here's the list:

-The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

-To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

-To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

-To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

-To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

-To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

-To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

-To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

-To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

-To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

-To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

-To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

-To provide and maintain a Navy;

-To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

-To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

-To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

-To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

-To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

I'd say a perversion of the "provide for the General Welfare" part would be their defense.

Maybe they should tale the time to read the following:

"Aided by a little sophistry on the words 'general welfare', [they claim] a right to do not only the acts to effect that which are specifically enumerated and permitted, but whatsoever they shall think or pretend will be for the general welfare." --- Thomas Jefferson 1825 to W. Giles.

"With respect to the words 'general welfare,' I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." - James Madison

 

[Sidestreamer]

falls within one of their 18 enumerated powers? If so, which one? Has President Obama cited which parts of the Constitution he believes gives the federal government the enumerated right to dictate such policies? If so, I haven't seen or heard him cite such.

First, just sayin' dude, you're a familiar face!

That said, answering your question, I don't care. Nothing that has been legislated over the past century has been strictly constitutional in your sense of the definition from the way I understand you. None of the articles of the constitution nor the amendments can explain the department of education, the department of the interior, the epa, or for that matter why we seem to have a different federal law enforcement agency for specific types of crime, like the DEA, the ATF, border patrol, postal inspectors, etc. etc. etc.

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

falls within one of their 18 enumerated powers? If so, which one? Has President Obama cited which parts of the Constitution he believes gives the federal government the enumerated right to dictate such policies? If so, I haven't seen or heard him cite such.

First, just sayin' dude, you're a familiar face!

That said, answering your question, I don't care. Nothing that has been legislated over the past century has been strictly constitutional in your sense of the definition from the way I understand you. None of the articles of the constitution nor the amendments can explain the department of education, the department of the interior, the epa, or for that matter why we seem to have a different federal law enforcement agency for specific types of crime, like the DEA, the ATF, border patrol, postal inspectors, etc. etc. etc.

You post as if you know me. Have we done "battle" before ?

I think you should care. Our employees are working hard to stick it to us even more.

 

[goldcatt]

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

Here's your answer. I'll have to find a link, but you're looking for the SCOTUS opinion in Heart of Atlanta Motel which sets forth the rule on how this clause is applied. Healthcare = Interstate commerce under the Constitutional definition.

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

Here's your answer. I'll have to find a link, but you're looking for the SCOTUS opinion in Heart of Atlanta Motel which sets forth the rule on how this clause is applied. Healthcare = Interstate commerce under the Constitutional definition.

No, I am not looking for a SCOTUS opinion.

"to regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States..." does not state that Congress has the right to institute universal healthcare amongst the citizens of the individual states.

The aforementioned Clause is speaking to Congress only stepping in, when state A is trying to pass unfair tariffs against state B. See Federalist Papers #42.