Do you believe in Noahs Ark?

[Godboy]

the verse speaks "pairs of the clean, animals etc..." all of certain animals were brought on board in pairs,not all animals on earth as some have interpreted.... there were animals that were thought of as unclean ....those were not brought

Then how did they survive the flood? We know the non "clean animals" existed before noah, and after, so this only puts another hole in the story.

the measurments of Noah's ark were recreated to specifics only downsized and the ark was tested in laboratories and the ark was near indestructable in all of their lab tests

Common on now, lets be truthful when we post. You and i both know that there are no schematics for noahs ark for them to recreate it in the first place, therefore your claim that it was nearly indestructable isnt exactly a factual statement. Lets keep this discussion on the up and up to avoid any petty fights over things like that.

huh? you ve never even read the story, have you? it gives specific measurements?

Measurements dont give you structural integrity. It doesnt say how it was built, using what method and design. I could build a big ass boat with those dimensions, but that doesnt mean its going to be sea worthy. Theres alot more to ship building than just simple dimensions, and since no one can say if Noah existed, they certainly cant know how he was supposed to have made the boat. Maybe modern day engineers can make a solid design, but this was a primitive man without the proper tools to get the job done, let alone do it single handledy, at his age.

Ill tell you this much, theres not a group of men on earth that could make a sea worthy vessel of that size without metal banding to keep the wood together. It cant be done with what Noah had to work with.

 

[Godboy]

why do feel it is important to mock peoples belief systems.....

I think most people DONT believe it, even christians. Disagreeing isnt the same thing as mocking, because if it were, you would be mocking my beliefs anytime you mention Noah and his ark.

using the measurements they figured out that pairs of all clean animals would have fit....

For arguements sake, ill assume this statement is true, but i bet it doesnt include space for enough food and water for each of these animals. Lions and tigers eat 15 pounds of fresh meat each day. Elephants eat 130 pounds of vegetation each day. I could go on with animal diets, but i think you get the point.

All of these queations are logistical. Any pious jew or christian will dismiss your questions outright and tell you two words that answer all of your questions, whether you believe them or not.

GOD PROVIDED

Isnt it a little naive to assume that god only did these magical things back in a time when history couldnt be accurately recorded? Why arent men of today parting the red sea, or talking to burning bushes, or walking on water, coming back from the dead, having virgin births, curing the blind, or becoming beast masters like Noah? Why dont magical things happen today?

 

[CrimsonWhite]

I think most people DONT believe it, even christians. Disagreeing isnt the same thing as mocking, because if it were, you would be mocking my beliefs anytime you mention Noah and his ark.

For arguements sake, ill assume this statement is true, but i bet it doesnt include space for enough food and water for each of these animals. Lions and tigers eat 15 pounds of fresh meat each day. Elephants eat 130 pounds of vegetation each day. I could go on with animal diets, but i think you get the point.

All of these queations are logistical. Any pious jew or christian will dismiss your questions outright and tell you two words that answer all of your questions, whether you believe them or not.

GOD PROVIDED

Isnt it a little naive to assume that god only did these magical things back in a time when history couldnt be accurately recorded? Why arent men of today parting the red sea, or talking to burning bushes, or walking on water, coming back from the dead, having virgin births, curing the blind, or becoming beast masters like Noah? Why dont magical things happen today?

It is not naive at all. God performs miracles everyday. Whether you believe that or not is irrelevent. I take that these things happened on faith alone and that is my cross to bear. You see it as naive and I could care less. nly those that are incapable of faith would ask the questions that you do. for that, I feel sorry for you.

(Sounds pretty pompous doesn't it? That is how you sound to people of faith. Liek a pompous ass.)

 

[Godboy]

Fact of the matter is, you are just as unlikely to prove that Noah's ark did not happen

You cant prove a negative, and since its not my claim to begin with, the burden of proof is on the person who is making the claim.

 

[Godboy]

It is not naive at all. God performs miracles everyday.

If there were miracles going on today like the ones the bible claims happened, we would know about them. You say god perfomrs miracles everyday, buts its based on no proof, so i dont see why i should believe any part of your story. The Mormon faith contradicts many of the claims in the bible, and they also have claims of magical events. Are the Mormons stories also true? Are the scientologists claims about the galactic overlord named Xenu true? You come with exactly the same amount of proof these other ones do (none), so why should i believe your story over theirs? Why should i believe in ANY of these stories?

You and i are already in agreement that every other religion on earth is absurd, i just take it one logical step further and apply that logic to your beliefs as well.

 

[Diuretic]

As an agnostic I'd just like to say that flamebaiting on the issue of religion is bound to be disruptive to everyone and offensive to believers.

Why can't you just allow people their beliefs? They're not hurting you or me. I have expressed a desire to live free from the effects of any religion, but I also feel that people should be able to to live within the dictates of their religious beliefs (provided they don't conflict with secular law) and that they should believe whatever they want. So, if someone believes that the geological formation on Mount Ararat really is Noah's Ark then fine, let them believe it, it hurts no-one. If someone doesn't want to accept evolutionary theory then fine, let them, science won't fail because of it. You know you don't need to start a fight about religion here, there are plenty of threads where you can just hop in and have a go

 

[CrimsonWhite]

Fact of the matter is, you are just as unlikely to prove that Noah's ark did not happen

You cant prove a negative, and since its not my claim, the burden of proof is on the person who is making the claim anyway.

It is not naive at all. God performs miracles everyday.

If there were miracles going on today like the ones the bible claims happened, we would know about them. You say god perfomrs miracles everyday, buts its based on no proof, so i dont see why i should believe any part of your story. The Mormon faith contradicts many of the claims in the bible, and they also have claims of magical events. Are the Mormons stories also true?

Im guessing you would dismiss the crazy stories in other peoples religions, just as quickly as i would dismiss yours.

Semantics. You cannot define faith. That is what this has devovled into, just as these conversations always do. You assume that I do not respect others religions. I respect all faiths. Whether it be Mormon, Lutheran, Islamic, Buddhist, Shinto, Sunni, or Southern Baptist(these are the fun ones). I minored in Religious studies at BAMA. I know people like you. So lets cut to the chase.

Why don't you just the question that you want to ask.

Why do you believe in God?

I would answer that I do not believe in him, I have faith that he is with me.

You would counter with, what is your faith founded on?

Then I would say that faith does not have to be founded on anythingsomething that can be defined. Faith is faith and those that are incapable of faith are the people that always looking for someone to define it for them.

Summary-
Belief and faith are not mutually inclusive. You are incapable of faith. Therefore youwill never understand and it would benefit you greatly by leaving people alone with their faith, as you will never get the answers you seek from study or people. Only God(however you know him to be) can change you r heart. Because that is where faith resides, not in the analytical mind, but in the enlightened heart.

I am now going to practice my God given gift of free will and no longer debate an undebatable issue with you.

See, God does perform miracles.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

It is not naive at all. God performs miracles everyday.

If there were miracles going on today like the ones the bible claims happened, we would know about them. You say god perfomrs miracles everyday, buts its based on no proof, so i dont see why i should believe any part of your story. The Mormon faith contradicts many of the claims in the bible, and they also have claims of magical events. Are the Mormons stories also true? Are the scientologists claims about the galactic overlord named Xenu true? You come with exactly the same amount of proof these other ones do (none), so why should i believe your story over theirs? Why should i believe in ANY of these stories?

You and i are already in agreement that every other religion on earth is absurd, i just take it one logical step further and apply that logic to your beliefs as well.

You changed this on me while I was responding. The first bolded part is much more complicated than you make it and it is obvious that you are getting your info from a pamplet or something You also put words in my mouth that I did not make. You assume that you know what my beliefs are, even though I have not demonstrated what my beliefs are.You also put words in my mouth that I did not make. We are in agreement of nothing and I will not fall for flamebaiting.

 

[Godboy]

As an agnostic I'd just like to say that flamebaiting on the issue of religion is bound to be disruptive to everyone and offensive to believers.

Why can't you just allow people their beliefs? They're not hurting you or me. I have expressed a desire to live free from the effects of any religion, but I also feel that people should be able to to live within the dictates of their religious beliefs (provided they don't conflict with secular law) and that they should believe whatever they want. So, if someone believes that the geological formation on Mount Ararat really is Noah's Ark then fine, let them believe it, it hurts no-one. If someone doesn't want to accept evolutionary theory then fine, let them, science won't fail because of it. You know you don't need to start a fight about religion here, there are plenty of threads where you can just hop in and have a go

How am i stopping anyone from believing in the stuff they believe in? Im not stopping anyone. Im asking questions, and anyone who cares to respond is welcome to. Simple as that. These message boards are designed for people to have discussions about these things and every thread on this site is full of people debating differing beliefs on one topic or another. Why should religion be excluded from this fromat? Theres a religion section here for this very reason, and im using it. Whats the problem?

 

[Godboy]

I am now going to practice my God given gift of free will and no longer debate an undebatable issue with you.

This topic is only undebatable for people on your side of the fence. Its very easy for me to debate it, because i have logic and fact on my side, where you only have stories from a primitive book and "faith". I can understand your frustration and i expect it.

 

[Godboy]

It is not naive at all. God performs miracles everyday.

If there were miracles going on today like the ones the bible claims happened, we would know about them. You say god perfomrs miracles everyday, buts its based on no proof, so i dont see why i should believe any part of your story. The Mormon faith contradicts many of the claims in the bible, and they also have claims of magical events. Are the Mormons stories also true? Are the scientologists claims about the galactic overlord named Xenu true? You come with exactly the same amount of proof these other ones do (none), so why should i believe your story over theirs? Why should i believe in ANY of these stories?

You and i are already in agreement that every other religion on earth is absurd, i just take it one logical step further and apply that logic to your beliefs as well.

You changed this on me while I was responding. The first bolded part is much more complicated than you make it and it is obvious that you are getting your info from a pamplet or something You also put words in my mouth that I did not make. You assume that you know what my beliefs are, even though I have not demonstrated what my beliefs are.You also put words in my mouth that I did not make. We are in agreement of nothing and I will not fall for flamebaiting.

Given the way you have responded to my questions, and given the obvious anger you get from reading my questions, i have to assume you believe in the bible. If you dont, then why are you debating me about it? Im not sure i understand what your point here is. I also dont get the pamplet comment.

Im trying to debate the topic of noahs ark, and you only seem interested in insulting me. Im not exaclty interested in a flame war with you. How about we just stay on topic?

 

[CrimsonWhite]

I am now going to practice my God given gift of free will and no longer debate an undebatable issue with you.

This topic is only undebatable for people on your side of the fence. Its very easy for me to debate it, because i have logic and fact on my side, where you only have stories from a primitive book and "faith". I can understand your frustration and i expect it.

You missed the point. With some, that primative book and faith carry more weight than your logic and so called "fact." Fact must be proven and how can you prove a negative? Therefore you really only have logic, so the basic battle is once again faith vs. logic. That makes the issue undebatable.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

If there were miracles going on today like the ones the bible claims happened, we would know about them. You say god perfomrs miracles everyday, buts its based on no proof, so i dont see why i should believe any part of your story. The Mormon faith contradicts many of the claims in the bible, and they also have claims of magical events. Are the Mormons stories also true? Are the scientologists claims about the galactic overlord named Xenu true? You come with exactly the same amount of proof these other ones do (none), so why should i believe your story over theirs? Why should i believe in ANY of these stories?

You and i are already in agreement that every other religion on earth is absurd, i just take it one logical step further and apply that logic to your beliefs as well.

You changed this on me while I was responding. The first bolded part is much more complicated than you make it and it is obvious that you are getting your info from a pamplet or something You also put words in my mouth that I did not make. You assume that you know what my beliefs are, even though I have not demonstrated what my beliefs are.You also put words in my mouth that I did not make. We are in agreement of nothing and I will not fall for flamebaiting.

Given the way you have responded to my questions, and given the obvious anger you get from reading my questions, i have to assume you believe in the bible. If you dont, then why are you debating me about it? Im not sure i understand what your point here is. I also dont get the pamplet comment.

Im trying to debate the topic of noahs ark, and you only seem interested in insulting me. Im not exaclty interested in a flame war with you. How about we just stay on topic?

Ahh, but is was you that questioned my faith. Did you not think that someone would be insulted? OPf course you did.

 

[Diuretic]

As an agnostic I'd just like to say that flamebaiting on the issue of religion is bound to be disruptive to everyone and offensive to believers.

Why can't you just allow people their beliefs? They're not hurting you or me. I have expressed a desire to live free from the effects of any religion, but I also feel that people should be able to to live within the dictates of their religious beliefs (provided they don't conflict with secular law) and that they should believe whatever they want. So, if someone believes that the geological formation on Mount Ararat really is Noah's Ark then fine, let them believe it, it hurts no-one. If someone doesn't want to accept evolutionary theory then fine, let them, science won't fail because of it. You know you don't need to start a fight about religion here, there are plenty of threads where you can just hop in and have a go

How am i stopping anyone from believing in the stuff they believe in? Im not stopping anyone. Im asking questions, and anyone who cares to respond is welcome to. Simple as that. These message boards are designed for people to have discussions about these things and every thread on this site is full of people debating differing beliefs on one topic or another. Why should religion be excluded from this fromat? Theres a religion section here for this very reason, and im using it. Whats the problem?

Oh the "moi?" defence.

You know exactly what you're up to. You now the believers will arc up. I suppose that's your idea of fun. I just think it's childish and unnecessary.

 

[Godboy]

As an agnostic I'd just like to say that flamebaiting on the issue of religion is bound to be disruptive to everyone and offensive to believers.

Why can't you just allow people their beliefs? They're not hurting you or me. I have expressed a desire to live free from the effects of any religion, but I also feel that people should be able to to live within the dictates of their religious beliefs (provided they don't conflict with secular law) and that they should believe whatever they want. So, if someone believes that the geological formation on Mount Ararat really is Noah's Ark then fine, let them believe it, it hurts no-one. If someone doesn't want to accept evolutionary theory then fine, let them, science won't fail because of it. You know you don't need to start a fight about religion here, there are plenty of threads where you can just hop in and have a go

How am i stopping anyone from believing in the stuff they believe in? Im not stopping anyone. Im asking questions, and anyone who cares to respond is welcome to. Simple as that. These message boards are designed for people to have discussions about these things and every thread on this site is full of people debating differing beliefs on one topic or another. Why should religion be excluded from this fromat? Theres a religion section here for this very reason, and im using it. Whats the problem?

Oh the "moi?" defence.

You know exactly what you're up to. You now the believers will arc up. I suppose that's your idea of fun. I just think it's childish and unnecessary.

No, thats bullshit. I could care less about pushing peoples buttons, though im well aware that these discussions inevitably lead to that. What im interested in is a debate on the subject, not a bunch of fucking whining about hurt feelings or any other crap. If you dont like the discussion, take your timid ass elsewhere. If you want to debate it with me, then stay, but im not going to let you change the topic of this discussion to some bitch session because you cant handle opinions that differ from yours.

Enough already. Back on topic, though now its time for me to go to bed, since its 2:30 am, but ill gladly respond to anything you have to say about the subject, in the morning.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The silence is deafening. Yeah, i had a feeling people werent buying into the whole Noahs Ark thing. Even the most dedicated christian would have a hard time swallowing this story, which makes me wonder why you guys believe everything else in the bible.

I believe in Noah's Ark as do lots of Christians. Ohh ya explain how that big ass boat got on top of that mountain?

Certainly there was a flood of some kind, but we all know that stuff has been going on since theres been oceans of water on earth. That doesnt however explain the story about all the animals on earth getting onto a boat with some old guy.

Theres a world of difference between catacalyismic event that created a flood, and a story about a guy instructed by god to save 2 of every animal on earth. The number of animals he would have to have on the boat would be staggering. Another problem is boats in noahs time werent sea worthy, because it was before the iron age, and without metal banding, you cant make an ocean vessel stay together. It would sink very quickly once the wood began to expand, leaving gaps between the planks. Since this happened 1500 years before the Iron Age, im guessing Noah would have had some difficulty in finding a good saw to cut the wood with.

I would also mention, the flood story is incompatible with the Christian concept of a loving, omniscient god. Apart from that, god's great flood idea didn't rid the world of 'evil people' after all. Way into the 21st century, there are still 'evil' people around. God failed.

...and what about the fact that noahs story is almost identical to the story of Gilgamesh, which predates the noah story? Doesnt this stand out as another example plagerism in the bible?

There were also records found of civilizations that existed before, during and after the fictional flood who didn't mention anything about a global flood. Therefore, the global flood story was simply made up, or it was simply a local flood that was blown into Biblical proportions. The water requirement for covering the earth fifteen cubits up is also simply implausible. No creationist has ever come up with a plausible explanation for it.

The animal problems are the most absurd of all. The dietary and environmental requirements for all the animals (koalas, for example) would make the logistics impossible. How could the koalas get fresh eucalyptus leaves on the ark? Did the carnivores suddenly turn vegetarian on the ark? Any rational person would see the problems faced by carnivores, parasites, and microorganisms. What about the hosts for the parasites?

Now for the human problem. There was no way for Noah and his family to manage the tasks of keeping the ark in order throughout the flood. Are you now going to also claim that god endowed them with superhuman powers, or that god was 'working through them'? DNA markers also show that it is impossible to claim that all living humans were descended from Noah and his family.

Did the saltwater and freshwater fish decide to throw a free-for-all open house and come out of it alive when the waters mixed during the flood?

So many things point to this being just an ordinary fairy tale.

God was a vengeful sort in most of the Old Testament. And he said he would never again flood the world. But back to the Boat. What kind of flood puts a boat that HIGH on a mountain?

 

[Diuretic]

How am i stopping anyone from believing in the stuff they believe in? Im not stopping anyone. Im asking questions, and anyone who cares to respond is welcome to. Simple as that. These message boards are designed for people to have discussions about these things and every thread on this site is full of people debating differing beliefs on one topic or another. Why should religion be excluded from this fromat? Theres a religion section here for this very reason, and im using it. Whats the problem?

Oh the "moi?" defence.

You know exactly what you're up to. You now the believers will arc up. I suppose that's your idea of fun. I just think it's childish and unnecessary.

No, thats bullshit. I could care less about pushing peoples buttons, though im well aware that these discussions inevitably lead to that. What im interested in is a debate on the subject, not a bunch of fucking whining about hurt feelings or any other crap. If you dont like the discussion, take your timid ass elsewhere. If you want to debate it with me, then stay, but im not going to let you change the topic of this discussion to some bitch session because you cant handle opinions that differ from yours.

Enough already. Back on topic, though now its time for me to go to bed, since its 2:30 am, but ill gladly respond to anything you have to say about the subject, in the morning.

Ah, got your number now. I thought as much. I'll be interested to see how you go here. It's a pretty open forum and it can get very willing at times. Thanks for allowng me to stay I think I will, just to see how you go. You come across as being extremely arrogant. That might not be intended but it's how I see you. In fact you appear to be a right wing happy clapper agent provocateur but I could be wrong on that.

Now I must get my timid arse into another thread. It's good being tough on the internet isn't it?

 

[Diuretic]

God was a vengeful sort in most of the Old Testament. And he said he would never again flood the world. But back to the Boat. What kind of flood puts a boat that HIGH on a mountain?

Begging the question there Rock. Who said it was a boat? Proof?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

God was a vengeful sort in most of the Old Testament. And he said he would never again flood the world. But back to the Boat. What kind of flood puts a boat that HIGH on a mountain?

Begging the question there Rock. Who said it was a boat? Proof?

Already been debated. It is a boat. But you keep denying it, after all you have a vested interest in NOT having a Christian God.

 

[Diuretic]

God was a vengeful sort in most of the Old Testament. And he said he would never again flood the world. But back to the Boat. What kind of flood puts a boat that HIGH on a mountain?

Begging the question there Rock. Who said it was a boat? Proof?

Already been debated. It is a boat. But you keep denying it, after all you have a vested interest in NOT having a Christian God.

Agnostic Rock, agnostic. I'm not so full of myself (yet) that I can stand up and declare, "there are no gods." I mean I might be convinced of that but it's a hell of a claim to make without any evidence, because I'd actually be putting it forward as a statement, a claim, not just a statement of personal creed. You might believe there is a God. You can prove your belief simply by stating it. It's your belief, not an objective fact. At the moment there is no way that the existence of a god can be proven so it's all in the realm of belief.

Now, where is the evidence that the form on Mt Ararat is a boat or ship?