Do We Need Religion?

[JBeukema]

Interesting theory. Doesnt hold up though. Religion is the epitome of man's search for truth.

Wrong. It is based in faith, which is belief without reason. It is an escape fro a true intellectual and honest search for answers

We don't have to make up answers. God shows us the answers.

.

Demonstrate that your god exists and that it gave you anything
What made minds like Newton great to begin with was the desire to find answers and a willingness to look for them. Its the people who arent great that say "I don't know, therefore no one can know. So why bother looking?" And so they live their lifes is medocrity

Correction: It is the weak of heart who give up and say 'it must be the thing that created all things and needs no creator and causes all things but has no cause- so that i can stop asking questions and be content in my ignorance'

Yeah, of course. Religion is all about control to people like you. Its easy to say when you act high and mighty. There is always some sinister motive for religious belief and encouraging people to believe it.

Did I say any such thing? no, I did not. you are misrepresenting my post- a strawman. i pointed out the fact that religion has provveen a powerful unigying factor and means of control for the last 6000 years of recorded human history.

People search for God because He is the one who has the Truth.

Demonstrate that your god exists and has 'the Truth'

People follow God because His counsel is the one path to happiness in this life and the life to come. His path is the path of freedom and peace.

No, ity isd a path of obedience and sevitude- and violence, war, rape, and genocide, if we're speqking afthe abrahamic faiths

 

[Avatar4321]

There is a problem with this arguement.

First off, they are scientists and not Theologians. You can use the "If she/he is smart/logical in this subject, then she/he is smart/logical in all subject."

But that arguement is not logical!


Second, their ideas on religion and GOD may differ significantly from each other--so any consensus they may come up with will be the most brittle of consensus!!

Third--God is used sparingly between believers of any religious concept. So you have to find their dairy and notes on the subject just to come up with what religion(if any) each scientist believed.

Now to the question--Do we need Religion. Some individuals do in the sense they cannot roll out of Bed without some kind of faith, belief, hope that will get them through the day. If religion was to go away, those individuals may be undone.

So it is not a question if we need religion or not, because that question can not be answered by any collection of people. The question should be "Do you need religion?"


To Each his own....

Actually, Newton though his work on theology was much more important than his laws of physics. He just isnt remembered for them. So I would say some of them were theologians.

But then, I never knew you had to be a theologian to know the things of God. I think the principles of heaven are simple enough that even a child can understand the basics.

 

[Avatar4321]

I don't go to church so I know nothing? These are the simpletons I was talking about in another thread.
Dude, numbers can be proven even to your miniscule mind.
A book, you mean by a polygamist who wrote a book about how god was an alien from another world? Dude, get a grip. Engage in moral activities? So now you're an expert on me? Praying to learn? Pray to whom? an alien of my choosing? Can I make one up too?
Valid experiences? Not to me they're not.

You've proven my point. You admit you know nothing about religion. You dont go to church. You dont read books. You don't pray. You have absolutely zero experience with the Spiritual. In fact, you deny the Spiritual exists. And yet you try to lecture people who have gone to church, who have read countless books, who have prayed, who have had spiritual experiences and declared their experiences invalid simply because you say so.

So yes, you know nothing. You admit it.

Have you ever had a spiritual experience? Yes or no?
Have you sought to know God? Yes or no?
You already said you've never been in a church, so I wont ask you that.
Have you ever studied the scriptures of any religion? Yes or no?
Have you ever studied a specific religion in depth? yes or no?
Have you ever sincerely prayed? yes or no?
Have you ever experimented on the Word by trying to do what a religion teaches? Yes or no?

 

[Avatar4321]

Wrong. It is based in faith, which is belief without reason. It is an escape fro a true intellectual and honest search for answers

Quite false. Name one person who has faith in God without a reson.

Correction: It is the weak of heart who give up and say 'it must be the thing that created all things and needs no creator and causes all things but has no cause- so that i can stop asking questions and be content in my ignorance'

Who on earth has faith in God and stops asking questions? Quite the opposite. Those with faith continue to ask more because the Lord tells them the answers. We always find more questions to ask.

However, we do stop asking the same question over and over. There is no point to continually question whether God exists after He's proven Himself to you over and over again.

Did I say any such thing? no, I did not. you are misrepresenting my post- a strawman. i pointed out the fact that religion has provveen a powerful unigying factor and means of control for the last 6000 years of recorded human history.

It's a straw man? Really, then why are you still arguing it?

Demonstrate that your god exists and has 'the Truth'

Ask Him for yourself. He will teach you if you are willing to open yourself up to the possibilities. Even if you can only hope that its possible He is there, let that hope become planted in your heart. Humble yourself before God and call on Him in sincere prayer and I can promise you that you will know that God exists and that He has the Truth.

No, ity isd a path of obedience and sevitude- and violence, war, rape, and genocide, if we're speqking afthe abrahamic faiths

Then you arent paying attention.

 

[JBeukema]

Quite false. Name one person who has faith in God without a reson.

Big black Dog anmd most christians who ever speak on the matter. As soon as smart people question them, their sole answer is 'faith'

However, we do stop asking the same question over and over. There is no point to continually question whether God exists after He's proven Himself to you over and over again.

If god has been proven, present the proof.

Ask Him for yourself.

So... you can't present any evidence?

Then you aren't paying attention.

Yes, i am. You are the one blind to your own religion's teachings

 

[AVG-JOE]

"If religion was to go away, those individuals may be undone."

I strongly disagree with this. If religion was to go away it would make no difference to a lot of people in terms of manmade laws and rituals. It would only apply to those who are compulsively searching for meaning in their lives but have yet to find it. Many scientists have spent their entire lifetime attempting to uncover the origins of life, and why they exist to begin with. Not a bad undertaking, but they will never find it. Relgion does not necessarily accommodate such answers as well. It's something that comes like an epiphamy to individuals. It's not something that is necessarily taught. Just simply defined after you've experienced such a thing and recognize a similar account.

In this scenario, not only would individuals become undone, should science ever uncover the origins of life conclusively with solid evidence and be able to create life from nothing, as would be required to actually prove such a theory, but our existence would most certainly self-destruct.

On a sociological premise, whether God exists or not to whomever, faith based individuals and societies historically have prospered far better in terms of living harmoneously among each other because the collective recognition of other people as well as their own sense of value for life is greatly exercised and respected. Without moral sensibilities and core value, you will indeed have a society if not a planet of humans who have completely lost sight of humanity.

Anne Marie

How can you tell though if the prosperity is due to the people having a commonality or if it due to the power structure being able to exert better control over the sheeple via fear of God?

Harmoneous living can also be attributed to common skin color and language - there are complicating variables in the equation.

-Joe

It's up to the individual's level of experience, wisdom and gut instinct in assessing the genuine intent of a leader. There are no guarantees that if you donate to a charity, it's director isn't living a dual life of depravity or even a serial killer or just someone needing some extra cash. And in some cases it really doesn't matter if the donated money at least gets to the needy with a little pocket change in his wallet. But essentially, the least morally and spiritually educated combined with hardship can be lead like sheep to a slaughter. Again I bring up Jim Jones.

Many people reach a point in their lives where they can make accurate assessments of a person's character and general intention. It's usually those who have the inner strength to not need the guidance or stroking of outside entities. There are many good causes, and usually the most effective, good or bad, come in numbers. I guess the risk is gaged not by whom you might endorse, but the level of need and sense of urgency you have to endorse something. The need to be part of a collective, perhaps. So many reasons.

Anne Marie

I was musing strictly in terms of 'if common religion were removed from the nation -vs- nation quest for prosperity equation, would it have made a difference in our history'.

There are so many different variables that come into play, it really is hard to imagine.

-Joe

 

[sidneyworld]

JB,

Can you prove that those you love in your life, those closest in your life love you? Is there any tangible evidence of that, that cannot be challenged to be potentially deceitful? It happens and it happens everyday. You simply cannot scientifically prove that love exists, yet there are few that would challenge the love of those they trust impeccably, correct?

How is that any different? Can you read a person's mind? Is there someway you can with absolute, scientific certainty decipher the sincerity and genuine love of some for you?

Anne Marie

 

[AVG-JOE]

In a word, yes.

The op asked "we". So you are incorrect in stating "yes" as many we's don't.

Simply because you dont realize you need it doesnt mean you don't. The drug addict needs rehab, but that doesnt mean he thinks so.

As a former smoker, I would question your analogy. The first time I purchased instead of 'bummed', I knew it was was bad for me.

As a former Christian, I'll admit to personal sadness when I realized that I no longer believed in the relevance of the stories. I knew that my relationship with God would be missed, but hanging on to it without sold-out faith in the redemption and creation stories would be utter hypocrisy.

-Joe

 

[JBeukema]

JB,

Can you prove that those you love in your life, those closest in your life love you? Is there any tangible evidence of that

I can cite their past actions as evidence of their intentions beyond any reasonable doubt or second-guessing.

that cannot be challenged to be potentially deceitful?

Can you?

It happens and it happens everyday. You simply cannot scientifically prove that love exists, yet there are few that would challenge the love of those they trust impeccably, correct?

Love does exist, and it can be shown scientifically by doing MRi scans of persons viewing pictures of thsoe they know. We can identify what brain functions result in the emotional experience referred to as 'love'; we can also define ;love as an emotional attatchment. The existence of love is unquestionable

How is that any different?

We know that love exiszts because it exists by definition as descriptive of emotions of fondess and empathy towards another person. Hel, love can even be explained natrurally, through evolutionary biology andf psychology, where the emergence of such emotional attatchments or some other means of maintaining a family unit and 'loyalty' is expectex tyo arise in a species as an evolutionary advantage.

Oh, and you neer responded to my last roundof ripping your assertions to shreds. -Or the onebefore that, where you lied about Einstein's beliefs

 

[AVG-JOE]

Quite false. Name one person who has faith in God without a reson.

Big black Dog anmd most christians who ever speak on the matter. As soon as smart people question them, their sole answer is 'faith'

However, we do stop asking the same question over and over. There is no point to continually question whether God exists after He's proven Himself to you over and over again.

If god has been proven, present the proof.

Ask Him for yourself.

So... you can't present any evidence?

Then you aren't paying attention.

Yes, i am. You are the one blind to your own religion's teachings

What the hell is wrong with that?!?

Faith is a wonderful human trait. Why can't I, as an atheist*, celebrate the fact that some of my friends and neighbors have such passionate faith as these?

Why can't my religious friends and neighbors celebrate the fact that I have a similar passion towards the rule of law and faith in my fellow earthlings?

Obviously, the faithful are not being swayed by the 'religion is just stupid' argument, and I don't see a revival breaking out on this board anytime soon, in spite of the eloquent presentation of the gospel mixed into the 'faith - you either get it or you don't' argument.

So what's next? Have we learned nothing from the Shiite -vs- Sunni bloodshed we've seen on T.V. for the last 10 years?

What the fuck, people?

-Joe

* Atheist - I hate that word and I don't really consider myself an atheist - I simply don't know enough to declare in the privacy of my own mind that there is nothing to the spiritual realm. The word was used for brevity.

 

[JBeukema]

What the hell is wrong with that?!?

To assume a position without evidence is to base one's self in ignorance. One cannot do such and expect to be taken seriously or have one's assertions respected.

So what's next? Have we learned nothing from the Shiite -vs- Sunni bloodshed we've seen on T.V. for the last 10 years?

What we've learned from that is that religion- based on ignorance and proud of it and unable to admit that it can ever be wrong- is detrimental to peace the the good of Mankind.

 

[JBeukema]

* Atheist - I hate that word and I don't really consider myself an atheist - I simply don't know enough to declare in the privacy of my own mind that there is nothing to the spiritual realm. The word was used for brevity.

You seem confused about the meaning of the word 'atheist'

 

[AVG-JOE]

What the hell is wrong with that?!?

To assume a position without evidence is to base one's self in ignorance. One cannot do such and expect to be taken seriously or have one's assertions respected.

So what's next? Have we learned nothing from the Shiite -vs- Sunni bloodshed we've seen on T.V. for the last 10 years?

What we've learned from that is that religion- based on ignorance and proud of it and unable to admit that it can ever be wrong- is detrimental to peace the the good of Mankind.

I ask again; What the hell is wrong with that?!?

Can we not agree to disagree on matters not provable before death? And don't assume that religion is based in ignorance - there are mountains of documents that many believe to be evidence worthy of study.

Beliefs and faith are human traits that, like love and hate, defy boxing and packaging for microwave consumption, that is why we haven't come to any conclusions on them as a species in our 6,000 years of sharing ideas across the generations via literature.

The trick is to demand respect for your beliefs by giving respect for others beliefs, especially when they're in disagreement with yours.

O.k., I will grant you that the history of religions on this planet does not exude examples of respect for alternate beliefs, but history is no reason to call for a pound of flesh today.

America is good medicine for the wounds of our history because it forces us to try to get along in spite of our religious and cultural differences. The first generation to understand and practice peace gets to see their grandchildren reach for the stars... Why can't ours be that generation? We've been given the internet and the interstate system - what more do we need?

-Joe

 

[JBeukema]

And don't assume that religion is based in ignorance

That's not as assumption, tat's by definition

there are mountains of documents that many believe to be evidence worthy of study.

none of which has held up to scrutiny

 

[AVG-JOE]

And don't assume that religion is based in ignorance

That's not as assumption, tat's by definition

there are mountains of documents that many believe to be evidence worthy of study.

none of which has held up to scrutiny

Dude, I appreciate your passion - hell, I agree with your passion, but you are sounding religious in your arguing against religion.

My point being that trying to 'convert' believers into non-believers is just as annoying as a Bible thumper beating some poor bastard into heaven against his will.

The first step towards peace is accepting each others right to be wrong.

-Joe

 

[AVG-JOE]

* Atheist - I hate that word and I don't really consider myself an atheist - I simply don't know enough to declare in the privacy of my own mind that there is nothing to the spiritual realm. The word was used for brevity.

You seem confused about the meaning of the word 'atheist'

On the contrary, that's why I wrote the footnote.

-Joe

 

[JBeukema]

one is either an atheist or a theists

there is no in-between

 

[Ralph]

um..... kk...

Pagan = non-christian

Pagan = 1,000 different religions.

But logic dictates that only ONE of those can be correct....all could be wrong, but ALL most certainly could not be correct and propagate different DIVINE messages. The question is which will stand up to the truth of History and Science while demanding to be placed to the test?

Some enlighten us with the Scientific Fact of the Moon being 50,000 leagues higher in the heavens than the Sun, shinning by a light source generated from itself, while having the earth's surface being constructed of 7 layers of food stuff...consisting of such stables as honey....sugar....butter...wine..etc. While another attests to the fact of the stars being nothing but torches set low in the heavens with man being created from clay and baked in an oven....While yet another informs us that ancient man navigated the seas by the use of a compass to settle in the western hemisphere, hundreds of years before the compass was invented, and once settled they rode horse back....hundreds of years before Spain introduced the horse onto the western hemisphere, while stating they directly witnessed African Elephants inhabiting South America.

Simply because someone seeks out God, there is no mandate to leave REASON and LOGIC at the threshold.

 

[AVG-JOE]

one is either an atheist or a theists

there is no in-between

Can there not be a spiritual realm we know nothing about which we call 'spiritual' for lack of a better term?

-Joe

 

[JBeukema]

one is either an atheist or a theists

there is no in-between

Can there not be a spiritual realm we know nothing about which we call 'spiritual' for lack of a better term?

-Joe

if you don't know about it, you can't call it anything