Do Faithful Muslims Lie?

[Kalam]

Exactly.

What he wants people to think: Mr. Fitnah is a humble intellectual who crafts incisive critiques of Islam using the wealth of knowledge he has gleaned from familiarizing himself with nearly every work that has had any sort of meaningful impact on Islamic thought. Ever the astute scholar, he makes sure to verify everything he posts by drawing evidence from a diverse array of these key Islamic texts as he sits in his personal Islamic library (which smells of sweet mahogany and well-aged pipe tobacco.)

The truth: Mr. Fitnah is a lonely, delusional man who believes that he's some sort of expert. He wastes valuable seconds of posters' lives by forcing them to scroll past his posts, which consist of copied and pasted walls of text from blogs and Wahhabi-funded "translations." In general, he spams the forum with the same two or three posts for several weeks before combing through these websites for new trolling material.

Is that about right?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

I hate mahogany.

 

[Kalam]

I hate mahogany.

Not to mention all of the information that isn't consistent with your silly Islamic world domination conspiracy theory.

 

[Madeline]

Mr. Fitnah's autobiography.....

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

I hate mahogany.

Not to mention all of the information that isn't consistent with your silly Islamic world domination conspiracy theory.

Well why dont you explain the second
part of the first sentence in 8:39
Compared Translations of the meaning of the Quran - 8:39
this kind of thing

Fight until blah blah blah

and

and all worship is devoted to God alone
and religion is all for Allah.
and religion should be only for Allah;
, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere
and so that the entire system is God's.
no temptations and their obedience be wholly unto Allah.
and the religion, all of it be to God,
and the religion is all for Allah;

When does the fighting end?

 

[Madeline]

I hate mahogany.

Not to mention all of the information that isn't consistent with your silly Islamic world domination conspiracy theory.

Well why dont you explain the second
part of the first sentence in 8:39
Compared Translations of the meaning of the Quran - 8:39
this kind of thing

Fight until blah blah blah

and

and all worship is devoted to God alone
and religion is all for Allah.
and religion should be only for Allah;
, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere
and so that the entire system is God's.
no temptations and their obedience be wholly unto Allah.
and the religion, all of it be to God,
and the religion is all for Allah;

When does the fighting end?

Bullshit does not improve with repetition, Mr. Fitnah.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Deflecting. you cannot rescue Islam
it was a simple question.

Well why dont you explain the second
part of the first sentence in 8:39
Compared Translations of the meaning of the Quran - 8:39
this kind of thing

Fight until blah blah blah

and

and all worship is devoted to God alone
and religion is all for Allah.
and religion should be only for Allah;
, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere
and so that the entire system is God's.
no temptations and their obedience be wholly unto Allah.
and the religion, all of it be to God,
and the religion is all for Allah;

When does the fighting end?

 

[Kalam]

When does the fighting end?

Maududi, Tafhim al-Qur'an, Surat ul-Baqara, E.N. 204-205:

204. Here the word "fitnah" has been used in a different sense from that in verse 191. The context clearly shows that here it denotes that condition of society which is not safe and free for adoption of the way of Allah. That is why the Muslims have been exhorted to continue the tight to change this state of affairs and to restore peace and freedom for the way of Allah. It should also be noted that the Arabic word 'din' which has been translated here into "Way" originally means "submission" and is technically used for the way of life which is built on the sovereignty of someone whose commands and regulations are to be followed. Therefore that condition of society in which there is the rule and sovereignty of man over man and in which it is not possible for anyone to follow the Way of Allah is fitnah. The aim of war in Islam is to abolish fitnah and establish Allah's Way so as to enable people to live as servants of Allah in accordance with the Divine Law.

205. It does not wean that Islam incites the believers to go to war to force unbelievers at the point of sword to give up disbelief and polytheism and adopt the Way of Allah instead. War is to be waged only to make them give up fitnah. As a matter of fact, Islam allows freedom of belief to all non-Muslims. One may adopt any way of life that one chooses and may or may not worship anyone or anything. It exhorts the believers to preach and to persuade the unbelievers and the wrong doers by argument to give up their false faith and evil ways, but it does not allow the unbelievers the right to enforce on God's earth any ungodly law and make the servants of Allah the servants of some one else. In order to remove such an unjust condition, Islam allows both preaching and fighting according to the requirements of the occasion. The believers, therefore, cannot rest content unless this fitnah, political domination and legal sovereignty of unbelievers, is eradicated and freedom for the Way of Allah is secured.

From the words, "Then if they desist from it, there should be no more hostility except against those who had been guilty of cruelty and brutality," it has been deduced that when the Islamic rule replaces ungodly rule, there should be a general amnesty save for those who had been extremely cruel and tyrannous in opposing the Truth when in power. Although in this case also it behoves the believers to show forgiveness at the time of victory, yet they would be perfectly justified in punishing those who broke all limits in their blind opposition and persecution. The Holy Prophet, who was an embodiment of mercy and clemency, himself availed of this permission and sentenced to death 'Uqbah bin Abi Mu'ait and Nadr bin Harith, two prisoners of war taken in the battle of Badr: Moreover, although a general amnesty was proclaimed after the conquest of Makkah, seventeen persons who were the worst offenders against Islam were made an exception and four of these were sentenced to death.​

Qutb, Fi Dhilal al-Qur'an, vol. 7, p. 114:

...This religion is a general declaration for the liberation of mankind. It takes a realistic and practical approach that employs suitable means to confront any human situation. When it is impeded by obstacles of understanding, it speaks out, making its message absolutely clear. But when it faces the impediments of social systems and tyrannical authorities, it confronts them with a physical struggle, launching a campaign of jihad to destroy all tyranny and establish God’s authority in its place...​

Fighting stops when nothing impedes the free practice of Islam. Fighting begins when it becomes clear that this freedom cannot be secured through other means.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

The aim of war in Islam is to abolish fitnah and establish Allah's Way so as to enable people to live as servants of Allah in accordance with the Divine Law.

Like I said , the fighting continues until only muslims remain.

 

[Kalam]

The aim of war in Islam is to abolish fitnah and establish Allah's Way so as to enable people to live as servants of Allah in accordance with the Divine Law.

Like I said , the fighting continues until only muslims remain.

Fail.

...It does not wean that Islam incites the believers to go to war to force unbelievers at the point of sword to give up disbelief and polytheism and adopt the Way of Allah instead. War is to be waged only to make them give up fitnah. As a matter of fact, Islam allows freedom of belief to all non-Muslims. One may adopt any way of life that one chooses and may or may not worship anyone or anything...​

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

The aim of war in Islam is to abolish fitnah and establish Allah's Way so as to enable people to live as servants of Allah in accordance with the Divine Law.

Like I said , the fighting continues until only muslims remain.

Fail.

...It does not wean that Islam incites the believers to go to war to force unbelievers at the point of sword to give up disbelief and polytheism and adopt the Way of Allah instead. War is to be waged only to make them give up fitnah. As a matter of fact, Islam allows freedom of belief to all non-Muslims. One may adopt any way of life that one chooses and may or may not worship anyone or anything...​

Thats not the Quran.

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do. (Al-Anfal 8:39)

it says it twice it must mean it.

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.) (Al-Baqarah 2:193)

 

[antagon]

as a stereotype of arabs living in arabia and the emirates, lying is a cultural staple. it is not major deception, but an american vendor at a farmer's market would never blow as much smoke up your ass as an arab at a souq.

trustworthiness is acknowledged like anywhere else, but it is exploited through dishonesty and manipulation of confidence in a pretty consistent way which is shocking to western people who are let in on what's happening. we have liars and conmen, but it is not a pervasive predilection like it is in the mideast, romania (which i haven't been to, but met some romas) and india (perhaps other countries in southwest asia, though i've only been to india).

culturally ingrained dishonesty. in the least, a lower bar for what honesty is.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

From your source concerning the verse I asked about,
8:39
[39-40] O Believers, fight with the disbelievers till there is no more mischief and the way of life prescribed by Allah is established in its entirety.31 Then if they desist from mischief, surely Allah beholds what they do, but if they give no heed, know it that Allah is your Protector, and He is the best of all protectors and helpers.

8. Surah Al Anfal (The Spoils of War) - Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an - The Meaning of the Qur'an

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Meaning of Mischief

In his Tafsir, As-Suddi said that Ibn `Abbas and Ibn Mas`ud commented,

[وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ لاَ تُفْسِدُواْ فِى الأَرْضِ قَالُواْ إِنَّمَا نَحْنُ مُصْلِحُونَ ]

(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,'' they say: "We are only peacemakers.'') "They are the hypocrites. As for,

[لاَ تُفْسِدُواْ فِى الأَرْضِ]

("Do not make mischief on the earth''), that is disbelief and acts of disobedience.'' Abu Ja`far said that Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that Abu Al-`Aliyah said that Allah's statement,

[وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ لاَ تُفْسِدُواْ فِى الأَرْضِ]

(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,''), means, "Do not commit acts of disobedience on the earth. Their mischief is disobeying Allah, because whoever disobeys Allah on the earth, or commands that Allah be disobeyed, he has committed mischief on the earth. Peace on both the earth and in the heavens is ensured (and earned) through obedience (to Allah).'' Ar-Rabi` bin Anas and Qatadah said similarly.
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

I really like this "Im misrepresenting Islam shit."

 

[Sky Dancer]

Since you don't even practice Islam, your study of it is hollow Mr Hissy Fitz

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Thank you, that is more deflection it does not answer or explain the second part of the first sentence in ayat 8:39 that is repeated in 2:193
I will bold it so those who wish to explain it can more easliy identify the part Im refering to.


And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do. (Al-Anfal 8:39)

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.) (Al-Baqarah 2:193)

 

[uscitizen]

I asked a question elsewhere about the need for a Muslim to be truthful to a non-Muslim, and received this response:

The correct form of "lying" you are referring to (taqiyya and kitman) has no real word for it in English. I guess the "long definition" would be "deceiving your oppressors in time of great calamity."

The closest non-Muslim example I can think of would be when certain German Christians hid innocent Jews from the hungry jaws of the Nazi terror machine. THAT would be a perfect example of Taqiyya.

You can't lie. That is very blatantly stated in Islam.​

What you CAN do, however, is tell "half-truths". Drawing once again on the example of Nazi Germany, if the SS came to a German Christian's front door, and asked whether or not he had seen any Jews for the past few days, "kitman" would be as follows:

The German says "I haven't seen them anywhere."

What he doesn't add is that he's HEARD about where the Jews are running, and so he has succeeded in keeping the Jews safe while still telling the truth. That is an example of kitman.

And a Muslim performing taqiyya is a paradox. Taqiyya is when a Muslim hides his or her faith from the state in times of oppression, and has nothing to do with lying for personal benefit. The people who promote forth the theory of "actively lying to the infidel West" are Muslim versions of the KKK, and simply no better than that.

Comments? Or are we ready to quit beating the "Muslims cannot be trusted" horse now?

Avowed faithful Christians lie so why can't Muslims lie as well?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Wrong thread .

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Thank you, that is more deflection it does not answer or explain the second part of the first sentence in ayat 8:39 that is repeated in 2:193
I will bold it so those who wish to explain it can more easliy identify the part Im refering to.


And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do. (Al-Anfal 8:39)

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.) (Al-Baqarah 2:193)