Do Dems want to tax the rich into oblivion?

[auditor0007]

If the left is successful in divesting the rich of their wealth and shutting down the engines generating that wealth, how does the left propose to make the rich continue to generate the wealth the left wants to redistribute?

You really need to ask yourself this very simple question; who purchases the vast majority of the goods and services that create the wealth for the very wealthy? If the answer is the super wealthy, then by all means, we should lower their taxes so that they will begin to purchase more and get the economy going. However, if the answer is everyone else, then you should be able to see that taxing everyone else more and the wealthy less does not make sense.

And it's not about taxing the shit out of the wealthy to get back at them for being rich. Somebody must pay for government. Everyone does to some extent, but the wealthy need to pay more because it is in their best interest. When they pay more, it leaves everyone else paying less and spending more, which in turn creates more wealth for those a the top. This is the point that the right continues to miss. And the greatest evidence of this is the simple fact that American businesses are sitting on over $2 trillion in cash and refusing to put it back into the economy. And the reason is simple, because they know that everyone else, the true purchasers of goods and services, have no money to purchase more goods and services.

 

[DiamondDave]

If the left is successful in divesting the rich of their wealth and shutting down the engines generating that wealth, how does the left propose to make the rich continue to generate the wealth the left wants to redistribute?

You really need to ask yourself this very simple question; who purchases the vast majority of the goods and services that create the wealth for the very wealthy? If the answer is the super wealthy, then by all means, we should lower their taxes so that they will begin to purchase more and get the economy going. However, if the answer is everyone else, then you should be able to see that taxing everyone else more and the wealthy less does not make sense.

And it's not about taxing the shit out of the wealthy to get back at them for being rich. Somebody must pay for government. Everyone does to some extent, but the wealthy need to pay more because it is in their best interest. When they pay more, it leaves everyone else paying less and spending more, which in turn creates more wealth for those a the top. This is the point that the right continues to miss. And the greatest evidence of this is the simple fact that American businesses are sitting on over $2 trillion in cash and refusing to put it back into the economy. And the reason is simple, because they know that everyone else, the true purchasers of goods and services, have no money to purchase more goods and services.

No... 'somebody' should not pay for government... EVERYBODY must pay for government.... and that is not the case now... and it should not be a 'more' thing... with close to 50% not having a stake in the game... making it so much easier for them to support and vote for spending and handouts, when they can gain the benefits at the expense of someone else

 

[kwc57]

A rising tide lifts all boats.

Now, if you poke a hole in the boat (the hole is taxes) the boat takes on water. A small hole is manageable. But the larger the hole is, the more time the boat passengers (middle class workers) need to spend bailing water out just to keep the boat afloat. They can't row the boat and bail at the same time....

The problem is that our current tax system is only designed to raise the yachts. The yacht owners do not believe in Trickle down economics either...they believe in keeping for themselves and to hell with the country. That was Reagan's mistake...trusting people who shouldn't be trusted. he should have made Trickling Down.... MANDATORY. If Corporations are making More money...then it automatically should be trickled down.

Because make no mistake...without the Working and Middle Class Americans making and buying their shit(or the slave labor Chinese making it and us buying it), they don't HAVE their riches.

That's the problem. Labor has become expendable. Except that, Labor's money is what makes THEM money. They don't live in a vacuum... their decisions affect us all and also the nation. Lowballing Labor is the root cause for all of this mess.

You're right with what I believe to be one glaring error -- that Reagan's (Milton Friedman's) trickle down was a "mistake." That was no mistake. Reagan was doing exactly what his corporate sponsors directed him to do.

Ronald Reagan was the man from General Electric and the phony sonofabitch was responsible for putting this Nation on a downward slide toward fascism. "Trickle down" really means siphon up, which is what we've been seeing ever since that professional fake was elected to Office.

In my opinion it's too bad Hinckley could only afford a .22.

Fuck you assmunch.

 

[auditor0007]

If the left is successful in divesting the rich of their wealth and shutting down the engines generating that wealth, how does the left propose to make the rich continue to generate the wealth the left wants to redistribute?

You really need to ask yourself this very simple question; who purchases the vast majority of the goods and services that create the wealth for the very wealthy? If the answer is the super wealthy, then by all means, we should lower their taxes so that they will begin to purchase more and get the economy going. However, if the answer is everyone else, then you should be able to see that taxing everyone else more and the wealthy less does not make sense.

And it's not about taxing the shit out of the wealthy to get back at them for being rich. Somebody must pay for government. Everyone does to some extent, but the wealthy need to pay more because it is in their best interest. When they pay more, it leaves everyone else paying less and spending more, which in turn creates more wealth for those a the top. This is the point that the right continues to miss. And the greatest evidence of this is the simple fact that American businesses are sitting on over $2 trillion in cash and refusing to put it back into the economy. And the reason is simple, because they know that everyone else, the true purchasers of goods and services, have no money to purchase more goods and services.

No... 'somebody' should not pay for government... EVERYBODY must pay for government.... and that is not the case now... and it should not be a 'more' thing... with close to 50% not having a stake in the game... making it so much easier for them to support and vote for spending and handouts, when they can gain the benefits at the expense of someone else

You really need to get away from the lie that nearly 50% have no stake in the game, because it is a flat out lie.

Taxes and the rich: How much do they pay now? - CSMonitor.com

And why is it that you constantly bitch about those who pay no federal income tax, but you never bitch about those same people paying double to quadruple the rates the wealthiest earners pay at the state level? I'm sure you probably loved Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan since it would have made the poorest Americans the biggest tax payers at both the state and federal level.

 

[Mr.Nick]

Just curious on how people think...

I think democrats loathe capitalism and look to government to make everything "fair."

I would call what they seek socialism by de facto.

I believe some democrats are too fucking dumb to understand that but I also believe many damn well know what their position is doing to society and don't really give a shit because they WANT socialism and an authoritarian government to enforce their views and ideology on the American populace as a whole.

Also you have the Cloward-Piven strategy in which Piven isn't shy about...

I believe democrats believe that government should support our society as a whole and are willing to sacrifice liberty to do such..

 

[kwc57]

But what good would it do? As far as I'm concerned, The middle and working class need a boost. They need disposable income to keep the economy rolling...that in turn, makes the wealthy more in the way of profits.

As far as taxation is concerned... with the middle and working class struggling so much... it's unfair to put the burden of the debt and deficit on their shoulders. Yes.. I know... families of the income range of $30k and under likely do not pay Federal income tax at all... but these are the people who are most affected by the high cost of living. Plus... they do pay every other tax that everyone else does.

This has been explained to you before.

FactCheck.org : Top 1%: What They Make and Pay

Top 1% Paid More in Federal Income Taxes Than Bottom 95% in '07 - NYTimes.com

As soon as Dear Leader defines a "fair share", perhaps we can discuss just home much more the 1% needs to pay.

I know you don't want to be bothered with messy old facts and figures and what not, but I'd like to hear your idea of a fair share based on the facts......since Obama won't or can't define it. Fair share is a class warfare term.

bump for Steelplate.

 

[Steelplate]

If the left is successful in divesting the rich of their wealth and shutting down the engines generating that wealth, how does the left propose to make the rich continue to generate the wealth the left wants to redistribute?

You really need to ask yourself this very simple question; who purchases the vast majority of the goods and services that create the wealth for the very wealthy? If the answer is the super wealthy, then by all means, we should lower their taxes so that they will begin to purchase more and get the economy going. However, if the answer is everyone else, then you should be able to see that taxing everyone else more and the wealthy less does not make sense.

And it's not about taxing the shit out of the wealthy to get back at them for being rich. Somebody must pay for government. Everyone does to some extent, but the wealthy need to pay more because it is in their best interest. When they pay more, it leaves everyone else paying less and spending more, which in turn creates more wealth for those a the top. This is the point that the right continues to miss. And the greatest evidence of this is the simple fact that American businesses are sitting on over $2 trillion in cash and refusing to put it back into the economy. And the reason is simple, because they know that everyone else, the true purchasers of goods and services, have no money to purchase more goods and services.

No... 'somebody' should not pay for government... EVERYBODY must pay for government.... and that is not the case now... and it should not be a 'more' thing... with close to 50% not having a stake in the game... making it so much easier for them to support and vote for spending and handouts, when they can gain the benefits at the expense of someone else

Just because lower income people may not pay Federal income tax does not mean they don't have a stake in the game... they pay every other tax that everyone else does. They just get a break on one particular tax.

 

[Steelplate]

This has been explained to you before.

FactCheck.org : Top 1%: What They Make and Pay

Top 1% Paid More in Federal Income Taxes Than Bottom 95% in '07 - NYTimes.com

As soon as Dear Leader defines a "fair share", perhaps we can discuss just home much more the 1% needs to pay.

I know you don't want to be bothered with messy old facts and figures and what not, but I'd like to hear your idea of a fair share based on the facts......since Obama won't or can't define it. Fair share is a class warfare term.

bump for Steelplate.

I never mentioned anything about fair share, did I? that's why I ignored your post. I will say this... no one... and i mean no other group has benefited from government more than the top 1%. Be it those so called "free trade" agreements that allowed the siphoning of jobs and stability out of our country and into others, or the myriad of tax breaks and special giveaways that they get on a regular basis.

 

[Mr.Nick]

You really need to ask yourself this very simple question; who purchases the vast majority of the goods and services that create the wealth for the very wealthy? If the answer is the super wealthy, then by all means, we should lower their taxes so that they will begin to purchase more and get the economy going. However, if the answer is everyone else, then you should be able to see that taxing everyone else more and the wealthy less does not make sense.

And it's not about taxing the shit out of the wealthy to get back at them for being rich. Somebody must pay for government. Everyone does to some extent, but the wealthy need to pay more because it is in their best interest. When they pay more, it leaves everyone else paying less and spending more, which in turn creates more wealth for those a the top. This is the point that the right continues to miss. And the greatest evidence of this is the simple fact that American businesses are sitting on over $2 trillion in cash and refusing to put it back into the economy. And the reason is simple, because they know that everyone else, the true purchasers of goods and services, have no money to purchase more goods and services.

No... 'somebody' should not pay for government... EVERYBODY must pay for government.... and that is not the case now... and it should not be a 'more' thing... with close to 50% not having a stake in the game... making it so much easier for them to support and vote for spending and handouts, when they can gain the benefits at the expense of someone else

Just because lower income people may not pay Federal income tax does not mean they don't have a stake in the game... they pay every other tax that everyone else does. They just get a break on one particular tax.

You just contradicted yourself.....

Like retail tax dummy???

What other taxes do the "poor" pay???

 

[kwc57]

I know you don't want to be bothered with messy old facts and figures and what not, but I'd like to hear your idea of a fair share based on the facts......since Obama won't or can't define it. Fair share is a class warfare term.

bump for Steelplate.

I never mentioned anything about fair share, did I? that's why I ignored your post. I will say this... no one... and i mean no other group has benefited from government more than the top 1%. Be it those so called "free trade" agreements that allowed the siphoning of jobs and stability out of our country and into others, or the myriad of tax breaks and special giveaways that they get on a regular basis.

That was a piss poor attempt at a dodge. Actually, you did say this, "As far as taxation is concerned... with the middle and working class struggling so much... it's unfair to put the burden of the debt and deficit on their shoulders. Yes.. I know... families of the income range of $30k and under likely do not pay Federal income tax at all... but these are the people who are most affected by the high cost of living. Plus... they do pay every other tax that everyone else does."

My question stands. How much more do the rich need to pay beyond the lion's share they already pay to make it "fair" for the many who currently pay nothing?

 

[DiamondDave]

You really need to ask yourself this very simple question; who purchases the vast majority of the goods and services that create the wealth for the very wealthy? If the answer is the super wealthy, then by all means, we should lower their taxes so that they will begin to purchase more and get the economy going. However, if the answer is everyone else, then you should be able to see that taxing everyone else more and the wealthy less does not make sense.

And it's not about taxing the shit out of the wealthy to get back at them for being rich. Somebody must pay for government. Everyone does to some extent, but the wealthy need to pay more because it is in their best interest. When they pay more, it leaves everyone else paying less and spending more, which in turn creates more wealth for those a the top. This is the point that the right continues to miss. And the greatest evidence of this is the simple fact that American businesses are sitting on over $2 trillion in cash and refusing to put it back into the economy. And the reason is simple, because they know that everyone else, the true purchasers of goods and services, have no money to purchase more goods and services.

No... 'somebody' should not pay for government... EVERYBODY must pay for government.... and that is not the case now... and it should not be a 'more' thing... with close to 50% not having a stake in the game... making it so much easier for them to support and vote for spending and handouts, when they can gain the benefits at the expense of someone else

Just because lower income people may not pay Federal income tax does not mean they don't have a stake in the game... they pay every other tax that everyone else does. They just get a break on one particular tax.

We are indeed talking about income tax, which ~50% do not pay... the other taxes (gas, energy, tobacco, etc) are equally enforced across the board... how would you feel if suddenly the 'rich' were exempt from fuel surcharge taxes simply because of an arbitrary decision on income level?? Would that be just as 'fair' as arbitrarily excluding 1/2 the population from federal income tax pure based on an income level??

 

[DiamondDave]

You really need to ask yourself this very simple question; who purchases the vast majority of the goods and services that create the wealth for the very wealthy? If the answer is the super wealthy, then by all means, we should lower their taxes so that they will begin to purchase more and get the economy going. However, if the answer is everyone else, then you should be able to see that taxing everyone else more and the wealthy less does not make sense.

And it's not about taxing the shit out of the wealthy to get back at them for being rich. Somebody must pay for government. Everyone does to some extent, but the wealthy need to pay more because it is in their best interest. When they pay more, it leaves everyone else paying less and spending more, which in turn creates more wealth for those a the top. This is the point that the right continues to miss. And the greatest evidence of this is the simple fact that American businesses are sitting on over $2 trillion in cash and refusing to put it back into the economy. And the reason is simple, because they know that everyone else, the true purchasers of goods and services, have no money to purchase more goods and services.

No... 'somebody' should not pay for government... EVERYBODY must pay for government.... and that is not the case now... and it should not be a 'more' thing... with close to 50% not having a stake in the game... making it so much easier for them to support and vote for spending and handouts, when they can gain the benefits at the expense of someone else

You really need to get away from the lie that nearly 50% have no stake in the game, because it is a flat out lie.

Taxes and the rich: How much do they pay now? - CSMonitor.com

And why is it that you constantly bitch about those who pay no federal income tax, but you never bitch about those same people paying double to quadruple the rates the wealthiest earners pay at the state level? I'm sure you probably loved Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan since it would have made the poorest Americans the biggest tax payers at both the state and federal level.

I am sure you have not ignored my consistent stance of equalized rate taxation for all citizens at all levels, have you?? I am sure you have not ignored the fact that I never made any support statement of Cain's particular plan...

But don't let that stop you

 

[Steelplate]

No... 'somebody' should not pay for government... EVERYBODY must pay for government.... and that is not the case now... and it should not be a 'more' thing... with close to 50% not having a stake in the game... making it so much easier for them to support and vote for spending and handouts, when they can gain the benefits at the expense of someone else

Just because lower income people may not pay Federal income tax does not mean they don't have a stake in the game... they pay every other tax that everyone else does. They just get a break on one particular tax.

You just contradicted yourself.....

Like retail tax dummy???

What other taxes do the "poor" pay???

well... at the federal level.... they pay FICA, Medicare, Gasoline taxes, Cigarette tax(if they smoke),Telephone Federal Excise Tax,Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Taxes,
Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax,Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax
Telephone Recurring and Nonrecurring Charges Tax,Telephone Usage Charge Tax, liquor tax.

At the state level...of course if varies by state...but, it could include any or all of the following...Cigarette Tax, Fishing License Tax, Gasoline Tax, Hunting License Tax, Liquor Tax, State income Tax, Marriage License Tax, Road Toll Booth Taxes, Sales Taxes, Service Charge Taxes, Toll Bridge Taxes Toll, Tunnel Taxes, Trailer Registration, Utility Taxes, Vehicle License Registration, Watercraft Registration.

At the Local level... School taxes, property taxes, Occupational assessment taxes, Local sales taxes, local income taxes, building permits.

that's about all that I can come up with... but there's probably more.

 

[Katzndogz]

The poor not only don't pay any taxes associated with telephone service, they get that service for $5.00 bucks a month for Lifeline service.

I'll give you that the poor that have yachts pay watercraft registration.

The poor do pay sales taxes, WHEN they buy retail instead of the black market vendors.

 

[Steelplate]

No... 'somebody' should not pay for government... EVERYBODY must pay for government.... and that is not the case now... and it should not be a 'more' thing... with close to 50% not having a stake in the game... making it so much easier for them to support and vote for spending and handouts, when they can gain the benefits at the expense of someone else

You really need to get away from the lie that nearly 50% have no stake in the game, because it is a flat out lie.

Taxes and the rich: How much do they pay now? - CSMonitor.com

And why is it that you constantly bitch about those who pay no federal income tax, but you never bitch about those same people paying double to quadruple the rates the wealthiest earners pay at the state level? I'm sure you probably loved Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan since it would have made the poorest Americans the biggest tax payers at both the state and federal level.

I am sure you have not ignored my consistent stance of equalized rate taxation for all citizens at all levels, have you?? I am sure you have not ignored the fact that I never made any support statement of Cain's particular plan...

But don't let that stop you

Once again... a flat tax hits the poorest the hardest... I know you don't get it. so I won't bother going into it.

 

[Steelplate]

The poor not only don't pay any taxes associated with telephone service, they get that service for $5.00 bucks a month for Lifeline service.

I'll give you that the poor that have yachts pay watercraft registration.

The poor do pay sales taxes, WHEN they buy retail instead of the black market vendors.

Bullshit. I was delivering the taxation that most of the 47% who do not pay Federal Income tax do pay. If you want to go into the 5-10% of the population that get welfare. But for the rest of the 37-42% of the WORKING POOR...they are subject to those taxes. Watercraft registration can be a fucking jon boat that people use to fish in so their families have something to eat, asshole.

But that's OK... when one has been beaten... they tend to deflect. I'll take that as a victory.

 

[LeftofLeft]

Nope. If they tax the rich into oblivion then the only place they can go for taxes is the middle class.

The poor pay no Fed taxes now and won't in the future.

The top 10 percent of the high annual income earners pay 70 percent of the Fed Tax Bill. There is a contingency (The President, The Left, etc.) that want these high income earners to "pay more of their fair share." The math will tell you that squeezing more money out of the top 10 percent will have no measurable impact on our deficit when compared to the Fed dialling in its spending habits. Democrats and The Leftist Elite know this.....they are very intelligent people.

By demonizing the top annual income earners and squeezing more money out of them, they accomplish two things:

1) Raise the level of Class Warfare so that the Poor (who pay no Fed taxes), can feel better about themselves and become more endeared to the Democrat vote.

2) Start the path to increasing taxes on the Middle Class. Why? Elites do not want an upwardly mobile Middle Class with the potential to move into "Wealthy" status. This line of thinking is prevalent among more socialist oriented economies......a Middle Class is non existent but the masses are satisfied while the Elite live high and keep others out.

Capitalism does not discriminate. That is the beauty of it and why this Country needs to be more of what The Fore Fathers envisioned vs. the Progressive's Vision of mirroring socialist economies where only the Elite prosper and the masses are kept in check with the notion that "all is fair."

 

[DiamondDave]

You really need to get away from the lie that nearly 50% have no stake in the game, because it is a flat out lie.

Taxes and the rich: How much do they pay now? - CSMonitor.com

And why is it that you constantly bitch about those who pay no federal income tax, but you never bitch about those same people paying double to quadruple the rates the wealthiest earners pay at the state level? I'm sure you probably loved Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan since it would have made the poorest Americans the biggest tax payers at both the state and federal level.

I am sure you have not ignored my consistent stance of equalized rate taxation for all citizens at all levels, have you?? I am sure you have not ignored the fact that I never made any support statement of Cain's particular plan...

But don't let that stop you

Once again... a flat tax hits the poorest the hardest... I know you don't get it. so I won't bother going into it.

And there comes your subjective argument right back into it....

Because it's not 'fair' to the 'poor'... fuck fairness... that's right, I said it... FUCK FAIRNESS... equality in treatment, P-E-R-I-O-D.... government is not your mommy, your nanny, or the fucking guidance counselor to make you feel good when someone gets off better or to take back the $1 bill you dropped and someone else gained when it was found, or the smart kid that feeds you answers to the test because they feel sorry for you...

This subjective touchy feely fairness bullshit is what got us in this quandary to begin with... and politicians know that if they keep pandering to it, even though it is not charged for them to do so in the constitution, they can buy votes, remain in power, and gain favor for influence.... and it's sad how so many in our citizenry still blindly buy into it

 

[sfcalifornia]

bump for Steelplate.

I never mentioned anything about fair share, did I? that's why I ignored your post. I will say this... no one... and i mean no other group has benefited from government more than the top 1%. Be it those so called "free trade" agreements that allowed the siphoning of jobs and stability out of our country and into others, or the myriad of tax breaks and special giveaways that they get on a regular basis.

That was a piss poor attempt at a dodge. Actually, you did say this, "As far as taxation is concerned... with the middle and working class struggling so much... it's unfair to put the burden of the debt and deficit on their shoulders. Yes.. I know... families of the income range of $30k and under likely do not pay Federal income tax at all... but these are the people who are most affected by the high cost of living. Plus... they do pay every other tax that everyone else does."

My question stands. How much more do the rich need to pay beyond the lion's share they already pay to make it "fair" for the many who currently pay nothing?

The focus has been on income tax and that is misdirected. It is the capital gains tax which is unfair.

Most Americans depend on wages and salaries to make a living and that is taxed at a graduated tax rate, the biggest earners paying the most. Capital gains tax is capped at 15% on long term investments. That means anyone making more that $34,500 is paying a higher tax than a billionaire is paying on untold millions in capital gains.

 

[DiamondDave]

I never mentioned anything about fair share, did I? that's why I ignored your post. I will say this... no one... and i mean no other group has benefited from government more than the top 1%. Be it those so called "free trade" agreements that allowed the siphoning of jobs and stability out of our country and into others, or the myriad of tax breaks and special giveaways that they get on a regular basis.

That was a piss poor attempt at a dodge. Actually, you did say this, "As far as taxation is concerned... with the middle and working class struggling so much... it's unfair to put the burden of the debt and deficit on their shoulders. Yes.. I know... families of the income range of $30k and under likely do not pay Federal income tax at all... but these are the people who are most affected by the high cost of living. Plus... they do pay every other tax that everyone else does."

My question stands. How much more do the rich need to pay beyond the lion's share they already pay to make it "fair" for the many who currently pay nothing?

The focus has been on income tax and that is misdirected. It is the capital gains tax which is unfair.

Most Americans depend on wages and salaries to make a living and that is taxed at a graduated tax rate, the biggest earners paying the most. Capital gains tax is capped at 15% on long term investments. That means anyone making more that $34,500 is paying a higher tax than a billionaire is paying on untold millions in capital gains.

As a conservative... you won't see me arguing against an equal taxation rate on ALL income from ALL in the citizenry... capital gains included.... but you won't get that from the progressives