Do commandments and threats negate free will?

[BluePhantom]

Well first let's hit this "10 Commandments" thing. The Bible doesn't exactly present them as such. I mean it's not like the Bible says "and God gave us the following commandments" and then listed them. They are not referred to that way. It wasn't until the Geneva Bible was published in 1560 that they were written as and we started thinking of them as "commandments from God".(1) Probably a more accurate way to look at them is to call them "some really good suggestions" since there were more than ten actually and it's hard to imagine an all powerful God who "commands" something and it doesn't happen. So in reality they are more like: "if you do these things your life will be a lot better and you will be on the path to God" as opposed to "do these things or suffer my wrath".

As far as the original question...no being commanded doesn't negate free will as you always have the power to say "no". You may suffer the consequences of refusal but everyone has the choice to obey or disobey, except in some rather radical, extreme situations where actual physical force is involved.




1)Ten Commandments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Katzndogz]

As there has not been a single law that has been passed in all of history that negates free will to break the law what's the point of this topic?

 

[GreatestIam]

God put the iceberg in the Titanics path too.

Then he is guilty of murder.

Regards
DL

 

[Avatar4321]

This thread is just a feeble attempt to avoid taking responsibility for one's actions.

 

[Liability]

God put the iceberg in the Titanics path too.

Then he is guilty of murder.

Regards
DL

Not by any honest definition of murder that makes the first bit of sense.

 

[GreatestIam]

This thread is just a feeble attempt to avoid taking responsibility for one's actions.

Was it started by a Jesus follower?

You know, those that will try to profit from the murder of an innocent man?

I agree that all who will ride that scapegoat Jesus are attempting to avoid responsibility.
God will know where to send their sorry ass when they try to ride Jesus into heaven instead of walking in on their own.

Are you trying to profit from murder?

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

God put the iceberg in the Titanics path too.

Then he is guilty of murder.

Regards
DL

Not by any honest definition of murder that makes the first bit of sense.

What a bright light.

Intentionally killing innocent people is not murder.

You must be a Christian believing that bit of idiocy.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

Thou shalt not commit murder.

That Commandment somehow "negates" free will?

How?

If the Almighty froze you into marble to PREVENT you from murdering another person, then you might have a point.

But although it's prohibited, that doesn't prevent murders. So somebody apparently still has the ability to act as he (or she) chooses -- even though it's contrary to the commandment.

If you follow it, are you doing your will or God's?
Remember that if you do not, then you are going to hell.
Are you not killing out of fear of hell or out of a desire to do the right thing?

Further, God ordered many to kill and rape and what not in scriptures and these go against his initial commandments.

Would you follow the commandment and proper moral course if ordered to by God and ignore his direct order?

Further, If God's commandments are so good, why does God himself break so many of them?

Is his policy one of -----Do as I say and not as I do.----And do you see that as a good policy for a law maker?

Regards
DL

You are kind of babbling, now.

You do know that right?

Your QUESTION was whether the existence of commandments somehow negates free will.

I pointed out that, "no, it doesn't because you are still free to act."

That you might suffer consequences is not a refutation.

In the law books of all the States there are written some secular commandments, too. They boil down to: thou shalt commit no murder. Yet folks still do, occasionally. The fact that a law prohibits it and punishes it doesn't change that fact. Why not?

Because a human being is still free to make the choice.

Yes. From known consequences.

When did God give you in terms of consequences of what heaven and hell are? Almost nothing.

Can you make an informed choice without knowing what those consequences are?

If you are human, from what we can know, you will likely choose hell.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc]'Hell' as an invention of the church - YouTube[/ame]

Better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity in heaven watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever.
Only a sick mind would conceive of such a situation or wish it upon anyone. That is why God would not do such because then, heaven would be hell.
If those in heaven did not go insane then they could not have once been human or good.

You should think of hell just a bit and recognize that God would not create such an immoral construct. Lose your barbaric tribal mentality. We are in 2012, not 112.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9FKn4rKXEY&feature=related]Satan and God: who is the good guy? - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTpJ8PGT2yY&feature=related]God is not Good - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaL7CkQaQpU&feature=related]Hell: an excessive punishment - YouTube[/ame]

God lied to A & E in Eden about the consequences there and if that is to be our example, we cannot know or believe anything your lying God says.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

[

How in the world does God's Commandments take away from free will? They are there to help us and learn to love one another, not hurt us. That they are even there - shows we have choices in life of what we do to each other, or ourselves.

Perhaps get back to me on the subject if someone either lies, kills, or cheats on one of your own children? Don't understand your line of thought at all. What, do you think the commandments are grievous?

Don't lie, don't kill, don't steal, honor parents...love... etc etc....
.

Only a fool who knows nothing of love would believe that someone can love another on command.

Stay in the line that will try to profit from the murder of a loved one like Jesus.
God will deal nicely with you in hell.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

[qu

The conscience that no scientist can explain guides our free thoughts. That little voice that speaks to us and tells us right from wrong if we listen to it.

God has his laws just as man has his laws if you follow those laws you have no problem,if you follow those laws it comes at a price.

God knows we can't follow those laws in our imperfect state so he provided atonement for the sins we commit. That does not mean you can purposely break these laws and not worry about it but if we do break them we can be forgiven.

No one can live by the law perfectly we inherted sin and it is our imperfect nature that we sin but we can have proper atonement for the sins we commit.

We try to be the best person we can and believe in our creator and he will take care of the rest. God judges the heart we can't hide what we are from him that's why i believe people with a good heart even though they may not fully believe might find God giving them a chance in the in the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

You are likely right that man cannot follow the commandments.

Neither can God as he does show himself to be a son murdering genocidal maniac.
Nice God you have there.

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

Regards
DL

 

[uscitizen]

Religious types have the free will to give up their free will.
they do NOT have the right to force their religious restrictions on me though.

 

[GreatestIam]

[quote
It is mans fault we are living in the world we are. The perfect adam and eve chose poorly and we inherited their sin.

When one of your children earn punishment, do you punish all of your children and wife as well?
Not likely if you are even half a moral man yet you applaud a God that punishes the innocent.

Tsk tsk.

Regards
DL

 

[editec]

I'm not entirely convinced FREE WILL actually exists.

Whose will made you reply to this thread?

Perhaps WILL (as the word is commonly used, at least) has nothing to do with who we are and how we think.

When did your will, as but one example, choose your sexual proclivities?

Now you don't imagine, do you, that your sexual indentity doesn't also influence your actions and POV about the world?

And if you didn't choose something so fundmental as your sexual indentity, then what are your real choices?

If not yours, I have a little test that shows that you do have free will.

I doubt it. YOur little test will prove that your concept of free will exists and nothing else.

BTW. What makes you think you do not have free will?

Logically reasoning makes me question the concept as it is generally meant.

Did you not choose your spouse and decide when to have kids and what not?

Did you not choose your career?

I certainly FEEL like those were my choices, about THAT you and I are in agreement.


But is who you are really something you CHOOSE to be?

I rather doubt it.

You are what you are, living in a world that you do not control.

If you think you have FREE WILL?

Right now do NOT think about elephants.

Go on try it.

You failed right?

FREE WILL?

Well...sort of it feels like FREE will, but I think the term as commonly used (and as you are CLEARLY using it now) is largely a DELUSION.

 

[GreatestIam]

Well first let's hit this "10 Commandments" thing. The Bible doesn't exactly present them as such. I mean it's not like the Bible says "and God gave us the following commandments" and then listed them. They are not referred to that way. It wasn't until the Geneva Bible was published in 1560 that they were written as and we started thinking of them as "commandments from God".(1) Probably a more accurate way to look at them is to call them "some really good suggestions" since there were more than ten actually and it's hard to imagine an all powerful God who "commands" something and it doesn't happen. So in reality they are more like: "if you do these things your life will be a lot better and you will be on the path to God" as opposed to "do these things or suffer my wrath".

As far as the original question...no being commanded doesn't negate free will as you always have the power to say "no". You may suffer the consequences of refusal but everyone has the choice to obey or disobey, except in some rather radical, extreme situations where actual physical force is involved.




1)Ten Commandments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Though shalt do as told or burn forever is hardly a suggestion. It is an order from a tyrant.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.




Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that it is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks where it belongs. God or nature.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

As there has not been a single law that has been passed in all of history that negates free will to break the law what's the point of this topic?

Just that all laws are written for social manipulation and control and that manipulation and control have an effect on your free will. Consequences control free will.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

Religious types have the free will to give up their free will.
they do NOT have the right to force their religious restrictions on me though.

True.

Some believers certainly do try to impose their standards on people though.

Promoting death to Gays.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMw2Zg_BVzw&feature=related]Rachel Maddow interviews David Bahati - Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

I'm not entirely convinced FREE WILL actually exists.

Whose will made you reply to this thread?

Perhaps WILL (as the word is commonly used, at least) has nothing to do with who we are and how we think.

When did your will, as but one example, choose your sexual proclivities?

Now you don't imagine, do you, that your sexual indentity doesn't also influence your actions and POV about the world?

And if you didn't choose something so fundmental as your sexual indentity, then what are your real choices?




I doubt it. YOur little test will prove that your concept of free will exists and nothing else.

BTW. What makes you think you do not have free will?

Logically reasoning makes me question the concept as it is generally meant.



I certainly FEEL like those were my choices, about THAT you and I are in agreement.


But is who you are really something you CHOOSE to be?

I rather doubt it.

You are what you are, living in a world that you do not control.

If you think you have FREE WILL?

Right now do NOT think about elephants.

Go on try it.

You failed right?

FREE WILL?

Well...sort of it feels like FREE will, but I think the term as commonly used (and as you are CLEARLY using it now) is largely a DELUSION.

The proof that you have free will is that you can give it up.

You have given it up on occasion. Right?
Or do you always do what you want?

I agree that we are born to be what we are to some extent.

That might make you wonder why Christians hate Gays so much and discriminate against them without just cause.
From what you say, they did not choose their sexual natures.

This puts homophobic Christians in an immoral position. Right?

Regards
DL