Do commandments and threats negate free will?

[GreatestIam]

Do commandments and threats negate free will?

Christians think that God gave man free will. There is no question in my mind that we have free will. I think it natural. I believe that free will is something that we take and not something that can be given. Freedom is a natural part of human existence and can only be given to us if it is being forcibly restrained.

When my children chose to exercise their freedom or free will from the restrictions in our home and moved to their own, any right to control their actions was shifted from my hands to theirs. In effect I did not give them that freedom. They took it. Just as you did when you left your parental care and control. I lost the right to impose my standards on them as well as the right to reward or punish them for what they do in their homes.

God also gives mankind all kinds of commands. We are also told that if these commands are not followed, we will be severely punished. This includes loving and adoring him.

To Christians then, God gave us freedom or free will yet kept the right to reward and punish. If we compare that to the reality of life with most families, it seems that God did not give anyone free will. Instead he gives command and basically says to follow them or be punished.

Do commands and threats negate your idea of what free will is?

Regards
DL

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUtSM2oVy_E]Free Will - "God" style: a gift? - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg5UNxOmTIY]free will of Christianity - Christopher Hitchens - YouTube[/ame]

 

[peach174]

God gave us commandments to live a better and healthier life.
If you follow them you can have a better life mentally as well as physically.
You have free will to choose not to follow those commandments.
But look at the price you pay if you don't

Look at Whitney Houston as a good example of it.
God gave her the gift of a beautiful voice.
She was raised a Christian, has always said she loves the Lord but look what she did.
She left the Lord and turned to alcohol and drugs. Very wrong choice, that she did of her own free will.
And look what happened to her. God took her voice away from her.

 

[Dragon]

Commandment and punishments do not negate free will. What they do negate, especially when applied to belief, is free thought. More, they represent a crutch, an artificial set of morality judgments which, when relied upon, cause the natural ability of the human mind to make morality judgments itself to atrophy, until a person cannot tell right from wrong except when told by the force of authority, and until he cannot understand how someone who doesn't believe in God, and so does not have the threatening voice telling him what to do and what to believe, can possibly have a code of morality.

 

[GreatestIam]

God gave us commandments to live a better and healthier life.
If you follow them you can have a better life mentally as well as physically.
You have free will to choose not to follow those commandments.
But look at the price you pay if you don't

Look at Whitney Houston as a good example of it.
God gave her the gift of a beautiful voice.
She was raised a Christian, has always said she loves the Lord but look what she did.
She left the Lord and turned to alcohol and drugs. Very wrong choice, that she did of her own free will.
And look what happened to her. God took her voice away from her.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

Commandment and punishments do not negate free will. What they do negate, especially when applied to belief, is free thought. More, they represent a crutch, an artificial set of morality judgments which, when relied upon, cause the natural ability of the human mind to make morality judgments itself to atrophy, until a person cannot tell right from wrong except when told by the force of authority, and until he cannot understand how someone who doesn't believe in God, and so does not have the threatening voice telling him what to do and what to believe, can possibly have a code of morality.

Yes. It is tough for some to show their moral sense when they have to refer to a book written by others and never to his own sense of morality.

Regards
DL

 

[editec]

I'm not entirely convinced FREE WILL actually exists.

 

[GreatestIam]

I'm not entirely convinced FREE WILL actually exists.

Whose will made you reply to this thread?

If not yours, I have a little test that shows that you do have free will.

P M me if you are interested.

BTW. What makes you think you do not have free will?
Did you not choose your spouse and decide when to have kids and what not?
Did you not choose your career?

Regards
DL

 

[Avatar4321]

If your mom tells you not to touch a hot stove or you'll get burned, have you therefore lost your ability to choose whether you touch the hot stove or not?

It's amazing the mental gymnastics people will go through to find a way to avoid taking responsibility for their choices.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Choices. That's what it's all about. Choices that lead in the direction of light and love, and choices that don't.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I'm not entirely convinced FREE WILL actually exists.

Interesting. Elaborate please.

I'm of the opinion that the spiritual path opens as the ego loosens it's hold.

 

[Liability]

Thou shalt not commit murder.

That Commandment somehow "negates" free will?

How?

If the Almighty froze you into marble to PREVENT you from murdering another person, then you might have a point.

But although it's prohibited, that doesn't prevent murders. So somebody apparently still has the ability to act as he (or she) chooses -- even though it's contrary to the commandment.

 

[GreatestIam]

If your mom tells you not to touch a hot stove or you'll get burned, have you therefore lost your ability to choose whether you touch the hot stove or not?

.

My mother would not put a supernatural Satan with me to make sure that I did touch it.
Would yours? Would you with your child?
I did not think so so why did God?

Your analogy is rather strange.

A hot stove causes hardship.

Does the knowledge of good and evil, which some say leads to almost all knowledge, something hurtful in your eyes?

Even as God says himself, it leads to a moral sense equal to God's.

Would you deny your children a moral sense?

Would you give up yours for the ignorant bliss of a cow?

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

Choices. That's what it's all about. Choices that lead in the direction of light and love, and choices that don't.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If choice and free will are so great, tell us what you see happening to A & E the very first time they did their will and not God's.
Did he not throw a fit all over them and us with original sin?

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

Thou shalt not commit murder.

That Commandment somehow "negates" free will?

How?

If the Almighty froze you into marble to PREVENT you from murdering another person, then you might have a point.

But although it's prohibited, that doesn't prevent murders. So somebody apparently still has the ability to act as he (or she) chooses -- even though it's contrary to the commandment.

If you follow it, are you doing your will or God's?
Remember that if you do not, then you are going to hell.
Are you not killing out of fear of hell or out of a desire to do the right thing?

Further, God ordered many to kill and rape and what not in scriptures and these go against his initial commandments.

Would you follow the commandment and proper moral course if ordered to by God and ignore his direct order?

Further, If God's commandments are so good, why does God himself break so many of them?

Is his policy one of -----Do as I say and not as I do.----And do you see that as a good policy for a law maker?

Regards
DL

 

[uscitizen]

God put the iceberg in the Titanics path too.

 

[Liability]

Thou shalt not commit murder.

That Commandment somehow "negates" free will?

How?

If the Almighty froze you into marble to PREVENT you from murdering another person, then you might have a point.

But although it's prohibited, that doesn't prevent murders. So somebody apparently still has the ability to act as he (or she) chooses -- even though it's contrary to the commandment.

If you follow it, are you doing your will or God's?
Remember that if you do not, then you are going to hell.
Are you not killing out of fear of hell or out of a desire to do the right thing?

Further, God ordered many to kill and rape and what not in scriptures and these go against his initial commandments.

Would you follow the commandment and proper moral course if ordered to by God and ignore his direct order?

Further, If God's commandments are so good, why does God himself break so many of them?

Is his policy one of -----Do as I say and not as I do.----And do you see that as a good policy for a law maker?

Regards
DL

You are kind of babbling, now.

You do know that right?

Your QUESTION was whether the existence of commandments somehow negates free will.

I pointed out that, "no, it doesn't because you are still free to act."

That you might suffer consequences is not a refutation.

In the law books of all the States there are written some secular commandments, too. They boil down to: thou shalt commit no murder. Yet folks still do, occasionally. The fact that a law prohibits it and punishes it doesn't change that fact. Why not?

Because a human being is still free to make the choice.

 

[Marie888]

Do commandments and threats negate free will?

Christians think that God gave man free will. There is no question in my mind that we have free will. I think it natural. I believe that free will is something that we take and not something that can be given. Freedom is a natural part of human existence and can only be given to us if it is being forcibly restrained.

When my children chose to exercise their freedom or free will from the restrictions in our home and moved to their own, any right to control their actions was shifted from my hands to theirs. In effect I did not give them that freedom. They took it. Just as you did when you left your parental care and control. I lost the right to impose my standards on them as well as the right to reward or punish them for what they do in their homes.

God also gives mankind all kinds of commands. We are also told that if these commands are not followed, we will be severely punished. This includes loving and adoring him.

To Christians then, God gave us freedom or free will yet kept the right to reward and punish. If we compare that to the reality of life with most families, it seems that God did not give anyone free will. Instead he gives command and basically says to follow them or be punished.

Do commands and threats negate your idea of what free will is?

Regards
DL

Free Will - "God" style: a gift? - YouTube

free will of Christianity - Christopher Hitchens - YouTube

What in the heck?

How in the world does God's Commandments take away from free will? They are there to help us and learn to love one another, not hurt us. That they are even there - shows we have choices in life of what we do to each other, or ourselves.

Perhaps get back to me on the subject if someone either lies, kills, or cheats on one of your own children? Don't understand your line of thought at all. What, do you think the commandments are grievous?

Don't lie, don't kill, don't steal, honor parents...love... etc etc....
.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Commandment and punishments do not negate free will. What they do negate, especially when applied to belief, is free thought. More, they represent a crutch, an artificial set of morality judgments which, when relied upon, cause the natural ability of the human mind to make morality judgments itself to atrophy, until a person cannot tell right from wrong except when told by the force of authority, and until he cannot understand how someone who doesn't believe in God, and so does not have the threatening voice telling him what to do and what to believe, can possibly have a code of morality.

Yes. It is tough for some to show their moral sense when they have to refer to a book written by others and never to his own sense of morality.

Regards
DL

The conscience that no scientist can explain guides our free thoughts. That little voice that speaks to us and tells us right from wrong if we listen to it.

God has his laws just as man has his laws if you follow those laws you have no problem,if you follow those laws it comes at a price.

God knows we can't follow those laws in our imperfect state so he provided atonement for the sins we commit. That does not mean you can purposely break these laws and not worry about it but if we do break them we can be forgiven.

No one can live by the law perfectly we inherted sin and it is our imperfect nature that we sin but we can have proper atonement for the sins we commit.

We try to be the best person we can and believe in our creator and he will take care of the rest. God judges the heart we can't hide what we are from him that's why i believe people with a good heart even though they may not fully believe might find God giving them a chance in the in the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

 

[Youwerecreated]

If your mom tells you not to touch a hot stove or you'll get burned, have you therefore lost your ability to choose whether you touch the hot stove or not?

.

My mother would not put a supernatural Satan with me to make sure that I did touch it.
Would yours? Would you with your child?
I did not think so so why did God?

Your analogy is rather strange.

A hot stove causes hardship.

Does the knowledge of good and evil, which some say leads to almost all knowledge, something hurtful in your eyes?

Even as God says himself, it leads to a moral sense equal to God's.

Would you deny your children a moral sense?

Would you give up yours for the ignorant bliss of a cow?

Regards
DL

This life is test are you gonna choose wisely ?

 

[Youwerecreated]

Choices. That's what it's all about. Choices that lead in the direction of light and love, and choices that don't.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If choice and free will are so great, tell us what you see happening to A & E the very first time they did their will and not God's.
Did he not throw a fit all over them and us with original sin?

Regards
DL

It is mans fault we are living in the world we are. The perfect adam and eve chose poorly and we inherited their sin.