Do Armed Civilians Stop Mass Shooters? Actually, No

Discussion in 'Politics' started by TruthOut10, Dec 19, 2012.

  1. TruthOut10
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    TruthOut10 Active Member

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    In the wake of the unthinkable massacre in Connecticut, pro-gun ideologues are once again calling for ordinary citizens to arm themselves as a solution to mass shootings. If only the principal at Sandy Hook Elementary School had possessed a M-4 assault rifle she could've stopped the killer, they say. This latest twist on a long-running argument isn't just absurd on its face; there is no evidence to support it. As I reported recently in our in-depth investigation, not one of the 62 mass shootings in the United States over the last 30 years has been stopped this way. More broadly, attempts by armed civilians to intervene in shooting rampages are rare—and are successful even more rarely. (Two people who tried it in recent years were gravely wounded or killed.) And law enforcement overwhelmingly hates the idea.

    Those pesky facts haven't stopped the "arm America more!" crowd from pressing the argument with alleged examples of successful armed interventions. The problem is, the few examples they keep using—in which they depict plain old folks acting heroically and with definitive results—fall apart under scrutiny. Here are five of them and why they don't work:

    Appalachian School of Law shooting in Grundy, Virginia
    Gun rights die-hards frequently credit the end of a rampage at the law school in 2002 to armed "students" who intervened. They conveniently ignore that those students also happened to be current and former law enforcement officers, and that the killer, according to police investigators, was out of ammunition by the time they got to him.

    Middle school dance shooting in Edinboro, Pennsylvania
    An ambiguous case from 1998, in which the shooter may well have already been done shooting: After killing a teacher and wounding three others, the 14-year-old perpetrator left the dance venue. The owner of the venue followed him outside with a shotgun, confronting and subduing him in a nearby field until police arrived. The Atlantic's Jeffrey Goldberg, who himself recently argued for more guns as an answer to gun violence, told me this week that one police source he talked to about this case said that it was "not clear at all" whether the kid had intended to do any further shooting after he'd left the building.

    Do Armed Civilians Stop Mass Shooters? Actually, No. | Mother Jones
     
  2. arKangel
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    arKangel Member

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    Mass shootings occur in "gun free" zones.

    End of thread.
     
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  3. AmyNation
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    AmyNation Road Warrior Supporting Member

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    People and business owners have the right to a gun free zone if they choose.
     
  4. eots
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    eots no fly list

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    Pearl High School, Mississippi: This incident began the morning of Oct. 1, 1997, when 16-year-old student Luke Windham entered the school with a rifle. Wearing only an orange jumpsuit and a trench coat and making no effort to hide his weapon, he initially entered the school and shot and killed two students, injuring seven others. He was stopped by assistant principal Joel Myrick, who retrieved a .45 cal. handgun from the glove box of his truck.

    "I've always kept a gun in the truck just in case something like this ever happened," said Myrick at the time, who went on to become principal of Corinth High School, Corinth, Miss.

    Appalachia Law School, Virginia: On Jan. 16, 2002, Peter Odighizuwa, 43, a former student from Nigeria, arrived on the campus of the school with a handgun around 1:00 p.m. and immediately killed three people, at least two of them at point-blank range. Two students - Mikael Gross and Tracy Bridges - both retrieved handguns from their vehicles and confronted Odighizuwa. As former police officers, both men were trained to subdue suspects but the fact is they were on the scene and armed, and helped prevent more killings.

    Muskegon, Michigan: From the Aug. 23, 1995, issue of the Muskegon Chronicle: "Plans to slay everyone in the Muskegon, Michigan, store and steal enough cash and jewelry to feed their 'gnawing hunger for crack cocaine' fell apart for a band of would-be killers after one of their victims fought back. Store owner Clare Cooper was returning behind the counter after showing three of the four conspirators some jewelry, when one of the group pulled out a gun and shot him four times in the back. Stumbling for the safety of his bullet-proof glass-encased counter, Cooper managed to grab his shotgun and fire as the suspects fled."

    Colorado Springs, Colo.: On Dec. 9, 2007, gunman Mathew Murray, 24, launched an armed attack against the parishioners of the New Life Church that ultimately left two innocent victims dead. But the toll could have been much higher, were it not for the heroic actions of former police officer Jeanne Assam from Minnesota. In an interview she said she very nearly decided not to go to church that morning but because she saw a headline on her computer indicating that two young people were murdered and a training center for Christian missionaries about 70 miles away in the Denver suburb of Arvada, she changed her mind. Murray shot a total of five people before an armed Assam shot and killed him. There were about 7,000 people at the church at the time of the attack.

    Numerous school massacres stopped by gun owners who wielded their weapons in defense of children
     
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  5. Oddball
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    Oddball BANNED Supporting Member

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    Seems they omitted the Pearl High School incident....I wonder why?

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Oddball
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    /thread :lol:
     
  7. Politico
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    No one has said arm principals with M4s. Stop smoking crack. And yes someone with a gun could have stopped them.

    But let me explain some reality to you. If I carry a weapon it is to protect me. I could care less about you. If I am walking through the mall and some lunatic starts shooting I am my concern.
     
  8. bitterlyclingin
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    bitterlyclingin Silver Member

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    [Lindisfarne; Cool reading. The Moral. What drew the Evil to it, was its defenselessness. With Newtown fresh in everyone's mind, now lets make everyone as defenseless as Newtown was by disarming everyone except the evil ones. They will always find a way anyway. The word 'Berserk' came into the English language as a result of the behavior of a tribe of Northmen, the 'Berserkers' who used to eat this special mushroom before going off to war and began to behave in a very peculiar way after eating them.]

    "I pull up in front of our town's little savings bank branch, drop out of the door and when my boots hit the pavement reach under my shirt and the remove the Smith & Wesson Model 28 .357 which I then put under the seat before locking the truck. "What are you doing Grandpa?" my granddaughter asks walking around from the other door.

    "Here's a word of advice cupcake. It's never a good idea to walk into a bank with a gun."

    The next stop after the bank was her school and when we walked in together I left it locked up under the seat again. Not because I was worried about violating the Federal Gun Free School Zones Act because, and while most school teachers and administrators don't understand this, there are exceptions and I'm one. Instead I left the gun under the seat because I would give those school teachers and administrators the vapors if they even suspected I was armed. Guns are evil most of them seem to feel. Not only mine. The guns of the police they'd summon to their aid are bad too. The make believe guns boys play cowboy with are bad too, even the gun a second grader might pencil in when drawing a picture of an "army man" is evil. It's a key tenet of their wishful thinking.

    And a very strange brand of wishful thinking it is. Because instead of hoping for something to come their way, they're wishing for nothing to happen. Its symbol might be a monkey with it hands over its eyes because it's principal doctrine is that if you can't see any evil, refuse to see any evil, then it doesn't exist. Of course it's only a variation of the old notion that if you don't look a lion in the eye he won't charge. But it's what these people believe. Which is why that school, like many other schools run by similar believers once prohibited any discussion of 9/11, any videotapes, photographs or indeed any reference to it at all. Again if you don't see evil or don't learn about it, talk it out, try to learn the lessons it teaches you, then it doesn't exist, won't have any power over you. Can't.

    But educators should know something about history. Because this is an old story and has its roots in a tragedy every bit as compelling as Sandy Hook School. The story of Lindisfarne.

    An island connected to northern England's coast by a tidal causeway. A holy place, in fact its name today is Holy Island and 1300 years ago it was Christendom's most prominent experiment with what we today would call a Gun Free School Zone. But what happened there should have proved for all time that covering one's eyes, pretending that demons don't exist, that you're somehow "better than that", is worse than futile. Criminally worse.

    Lindisfarne was a monastery, renowned for its non-violence, dedicated to learning, to the idea that in the tumult of the early Middle Ages, man could, should be, was "better than that." Gloriously "better than that." And for a while people believed along with them in this "right message" and endowed Lindisfarne with riches, sang its praises in ten thousand churches.

    Its ruins today are still a beacon atop a spire of high rock, surmounted by sheer stone walls, far above the everyday concerns of this world.

    But they are ruins because one dark in the eighth century Lindisfarne's rock and walls were scaled by Vikings holding their swords in their mouths. Demons out of the northern seas who chased the unarmed monks from room to room in the monastery, butchering them for sport, sacking their golden altar and trampling their precious books underfoot. An event which shook Christendom to its core.

    Why did it happen? Quite simply because the killers were drawn by the defenselessness of the place, by Lindisfarne's "right message", by the fact that Lindisfarne abjured violence and trusted as school administrators trust today, in never looking the lion in the eye.

    Above all by the fact that Lindisfarne would not suffer the presence of armed men who might defend it.

    Today most of us don't even remember that there once was such a place. Even though we keep repeating the same mistake it made. We don't remember what we should have learned then; that weakness will, sooner or later, summon horror.

    As Adam Lanza was summoned to Sandy Hook School."

    Articles: Lindisfarne To Sandy Hook: The Tragedy of Wishful Thinking
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2012
  9. Quantum Windbag
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    Quantum Windbag Gold Member

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    Mother Jones does not think guns help stop stop crimes, yet they think police should have guns.

    Can anyone explain that?
     
  10. percysunshine
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    percysunshine Gold Member

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    "As I reported recently in our in-depth investigation, not one of the 62 mass shootings in the United States over the last 30 years has been stopped this way."

    Logic flaw alert!

    By definition, they were not stopped.

    The ones that were stopped do not end up in the 'mass shootings' category.

    Try again young jedi...
     

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