Did the Founders want a weak central government?

[antagon]

its difficult to base an analysis of what the founders conceived just by looking at the ratification and the dissent. the rat(ificationist)s, for example, included jefferson(ians) who became the brake mechanism for the strong federalist movement during antibellum.

the federalist was a sales pitch, and the seeming contradiction between that push and the subsequent pull to slow the balance of strength in the fed govt after the ratification is a testament to that.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The fault, dear Crusader Frank, is you still want the right to own a human being, which you could have done before the Civil War. I don't think you want a human, but I believe you want that misbegotten "rat" (that's how we say 'rights' down here).

The Constitution has been self-correcting from the beginning, through Amendments and SCOTUS decisions. Today Plessy and Worchester and Dred Scott are not likely. In your world, they would be expected to happen.

Where you are right is that Americans as humans are simply the same as other humans: American exceptionalism does not apply. Where are we are different is when we live up to the liberal humanity of the Declaration and Constitutuion. When we had done that, we are pretty awesome.

Jake, it's hard to tell what's more idiotic: your imaging me as a would be slave owner or your complete and total, well I can't even call it a misunderstanding, because it's a type of understanding, it's more like we're talking about another document in some foreign language.

The Constitution is not a "Living, breathing document" but it does have an Amendment process; that was the genius of the founders. The "Living, Breathing" is just a Progressive perversion.

You are correct that we use language differently. I venerate the Constitution. I know that it was designed to serve generations to come, not to capture that of the Founders and impose it on the future. Such makes reason stare. And time has proven my vision correct and yours wrong.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The fault, dear Crusader Frank, is you still want the right to own a human being, which you could have done before the Civil War. I don't think you want a human, but I believe you want that misbegotten "rat" (that's how we say 'rights' down here).

The Constitution has been self-correcting from the beginning, through Amendments and SCOTUS decisions. Today Plessy and Worchester and Dred Scott are not likely. In your world, they would be expected to happen.

Where you are right is that Americans as humans are simply the same as other humans: American exceptionalism does not apply. Where are we are different is when we live up to the liberal humanity of the Declaration and Constitutuion. When we had done that, we are pretty awesome.

Jake, it's hard to tell what's more idiotic: your imaging me as a would be slave owner or your complete and total, well I can't even call it a misunderstanding, because it's a type of understanding, it's more like we're talking about another document in some foreign language.

The Constitution is not a "Living, breathing document" but it does have an Amendment process; that was the genius of the founders. The "Living, Breathing" is just a Progressive perversion.

You are correct that we use language differently. I venerate the Constitution. I know that it was designed to serve generations to come, not to capture that of the Founders and impose it on the future. Such makes reason stare. And time has proven my vision correct and yours wrong.

No Jake, the Founders knew that human nature was perverse and tried to put together a balanced government, one that would respect the individual yet be strong enough to be effective. You make it a limp sock puppet subject to popular tastes and whims. Once again, it's just another topic you can't be bothered to learn about you just spew Progressive talking points and still haven't figured out why you're Professor Backwards.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Your comments above reveal why the reactionaries far, far to the right are so few in number and are do desperately attempting to subvert the Tea Party, then the GOP. It's a fact I know the Constitution, its creation, its history, its founders, and it purpose far better than you, Frank. You are trapped in a world that does not want to change, and you and those like you want to impose your depraved nature on the rest of us.

The American population is darker, more literate, technologically advanced, and uninterested in the dead old past to them of race, dual federalism, and home rule. They look at your side, Frank, as weird, and that is why your numbers are so lacking in color, youth to thirty somethings, and women. Look at the next rally, and you will see what I mean.

You see, your chance was over before you ever were born.

 

[midcan5]

If you answered "YES", the please explain why they did not keep the Articles of Confederation, which was a form of government with weak central authority and most of the real power still resting with the states.

LOL The replies are too funny, ask a question, get the right wingnut reply of the moment. In another rhetorical situation, the founders would be for this or that, dependent on the current requirement to spin, distort, or obfuscate.

Confusion was rife, the founders - the people - wanted an end to it, a central government in other words.

"The unity of Government, which constitutes you one people, is also now dear to you. It is justly so; for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquillity at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very Liberty, which you so highly prize. But as it is easy to foresee, that, from different causes and from different quarters, much pains will be taken, many artifices employed, to weaken in your minds the conviction of this truth; as this is the point in your political fortress against which the batteries of internal and external enemies will be most constantly and actively (though often covertly and insidiously) directed, it is of infinite moment, that you should properly estimate the immense value of your national Union to your collective and individual happiness; that you should cherish a cordial, habitual, and immovable attachment to it; accustoming yourselves to think and speak of it as of the Palladium of your political safety and prosperity; watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety; discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion, that it can in any event be abandoned; and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest, or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts." Quote DB :: Speeches :: George Washington :: George Washington's Farewell Address Speech

 

[boedicca]

And? No state attorney general has filed any brief of any significant constitutional concern about the constitutionality of health care.

You are Woefully Misinformed.

As the Obama administration presses ahead with the health care law, officials are bracing for the possibility that a federal judge in Virginia will soon reject its central provision as unconstitutional and, in the worst case for the White House, halt its enforcement until higher courts can rule.

The judge, Henry E. Hudson of Federal District Court in Richmond, has promised to rule by the end of the year on the constitutionality of the law’s requirement that most Americans obtain insurance, which takes effect in 2014...

...Mr. Cuccinelli and the plaintiffs in the Florida case, who include attorneys general or governors from 20 states, have emphasized that Congressional bill writers did not include a “severability clause” that would explicitly protect other parts of the sprawling law if certain provisions were struck down...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/27/us/politics/27health.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

 

[JakeStarkey]

Boedicaa, there is no merit in your contention than any merit in the "lack of severability clause" contention. It can certainly be inferred and defended and judged meritorious. Your wack AGs are merely spending the people's money on a lost cause.

 

[Yurt]

Your comments above reveal why the reactionaries far, far to the right are so few in number and are do desperately attempting to subvert the Tea Party, then the GOP. It's a fact I know the Constitution, its creation, its history, its founders, and it purpose far better than you, Frank. You are trapped in a world that does not want to change, and you and those like you want to impose your depraved nature on the rest of us.

The American population is darker, more literate, technologically advanced, and uninterested in the dead old past to them of race, dual federalism, and home rule. They look at your side, Frank, as weird, and that is why your numbers are so lacking in color, youth to thirty somethings, and women. Look at the next rally, and you will see what I mean.

You see, your chance was over before you ever were born.

you claim to be on the "right" of the political spectrum

yet

i've never seen you call out anyone on the left for anything....why is that

 

[JakeStarkey]

Yurt, that is because you have not been reading. I am not worried about the left, I am concerned about the wacks that want to pervert the GOP. What you are mad about is that I won't support pretend GOP wannabees. Never have, never will. The past is gone, tomorrow is not here yet. So plan for the future, and the Palins are not the road to sucess. The Romneys are. Live with it.

 

[Intense]

Yurt, that is because you have not been reading. I am not worried about the left, I am concerned about the wacks that want to pervert the GOP. What you are mad about is that I won't support pretend GOP wannabees. Never have, never will. The past is gone, tomorrow is not here yet. So plan for the future, and the Palins are not the road to sucess. The Romneys are. Live with it.

Where the fuck were you the last time Romney ran???

Just so you don't confuse Federalism with Nationalism. Enumerated decentralized power, as a defense against tyranny and the totalitarian state. Ssshh!!!!!

 

[Yurt]

Yurt, that is because you have not been reading. I am not worried about the left, I am concerned about the wacks that want to pervert the GOP. What you are mad about is that I won't support pretend GOP wannabees. Never have, never will. The past is gone, tomorrow is not here yet. So plan for the future, and the Palins are not the road to sucess. The Romneys are. Live with it.

i'm mad? how did you get that? projection again most likely....

your theory isn't even plausible as most of your stances are in the left end of the spectrum....if you truly cared, truly....you would work both sides to get them to this so called middle or perfect ground you would have us believe would make america better....

you can't take on one party and expect that it will bring you your dream, it takes both parties to find the middle, it has worked that way since our founding, so i find your story to be fiction

this board was the first board i posted at on the internet, i was clueless about politics when i joined and i've learned some more over the years, not just from this board, but one important item that seems true to me is....no one party can make this nation better.

yet you believe only one party can, why?

 

[Yurt]

one more thing....

jake...you obviously don't pay attention....i don't support palin, i do support romney

 

[JakeStarkey]

Yurt, that is because you have not been reading. I am not worried about the left, I am concerned about the wacks that want to pervert the GOP. What you are mad about is that I won't support pretend GOP wannabees. Never have, never will. The past is gone, tomorrow is not here yet. So plan for the future, and the Palins are not the road to sucess. The Romneys are. Live with it.

i'm mad? how did you get that? projection again most likely....

your theory isn't even plausible as most of your stances are in the left end of the spectrum....if you truly cared, truly....you would work both sides to get them to this so called middle or perfect ground you would have us believe would make america better....

you can't take on one party and expect that it will bring you your dream, it takes both parties to find the middle, it has worked that way since our founding, so i find your story to be fiction

this board was the first board i posted at on the internet, i was clueless about politics when i joined and i've learned some more over the years, not just from this board, but one important item that seems true to me is....no one party can make this nation better.

yet you believe only one party can, why?

You have no idea what my stances are based on your comments above. I believe in the future. I know the past is dead. I know the GOP has to court far better the youth, the minorities, the women than it ever has in the past if it wants to survive.

I believe either party can win in 2012, based on two things: the state of the economy and who the candidates will be. A Palin Obama race ends in Democratic victory despite the economy. A Obama Romney race will end in a GOP victory.

If the above makes me a liberal compared to you, than you are beyond the right-wing horizon and can easily be dismissed.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I know you do. I am just giving you the facts on where I stand. I could care less if you agree with me at all. But do understand this, Yurt, I want a Romney victory.

 

[Yurt]

I know you do. I am just giving you the facts on where I stand. I could care less if you agree with me at all. But do understand this, Yurt, I want a Romney victory.

i don't believe you and the fact you think i'm "beyond" the right wing horizon is hilarious and shows you're just a dishonest hack

when one reads your posts, they cannot conclude anything but that you're a liberal passing yourself off as a republican

 

[JakeStarkey]

Who cares what you believe at all? I don't. Any far right wing nut might believe that, but any responsible Republican knows that you are just being silly. However, let's you the right wing kook and me the "liberal" kook work for a Romney victory. Once we get that, we can quarrel.

 

[Yurt]

Who cares what you believe at all? I don't. Any far right wing nut might believe that, but any responsible Republican knows that you are just being silly. However, let's you the right wing kook and me the "liberal" kook work for a Romney victory. Once we get that, we can quarrel.

the fact you think i'm "far right wing" proves you're a far left liberal

no doubt my support of gay marriage or getting the government out of marriage makes me a far right wing kook....

 

[JakeStarkey]

No, the fact that you think I am a "far left liberal" shows just how kooky and far to the right you are, possible to the right of USAR and tea party samurai. Your stand on marriage means on that one issue you are a social libertarian (NO! bigrebnc, that does not mean that Yurt is a socialist). See, you want to define me, and you can't do that accurately. So who cares? Let's work to elect Romney.

 

[Yurt]

No, the fact that you think I am a "far left liberal" shows just how kooky and far to the right you are, possible to the right of USAR and tea party samurai. Your stand on marriage means on that one issue you are a social libertarian (NO! bigrebnc, that does not mean that Yurt is a socialist). See, you want to define me, and you can't do that accurately. So who cares? Let's work to elect Romney.

lol....this is why i believe you're a troll

to claim i'm to the right, even possibly, of USAR and TPS....can mean you're only here to troll, eg, not tell the truth, but just to make dumb comments and get a rise out of people...

there are at least two glaring issues that prove you're a dishonest hack...1. i don't support palin; 2. i believe obama was born in hawaii

and yet you would actually proffer that i might be to the right of those guys....

 

[JakeStarkey]

What you believe is unimportant.

How can I be trolling when you troll that I am a liberal when I am not? I never doubted that you were smart enough to not support Palin, and any sane person knows that Obama was born in Hawaii.

See, that is why I want to know why you are trolling. I did catch you on youtube.

[ame="http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bMLrA_0O5I&feature=related"]http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bMLrA_0O5I&feature=related[/ame]

[ame="http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-ASbyfaSR0&feature=related"]http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-ASbyfaSR0&feature=related[/ame]