Did man create God

[Lonestar_logic]

No and it can be proven.

 

[Foxfyre]

No and it can be proven.

No, and WHAT can be proven???

 

[lizzie]

Not only political ideology but any issue that consumes somebody and becomes the focus of their lives: environmental religionism is a biggie these days; those that make a religion of dietary preferences; some fantatical types in groups like Green Peace and PETA that would literally dismantle all human influence in the world in order to pacify the 'god' they have selected to rule their lives.

Exactly We have replaced God the Father with weather gods, animal gods, food gods, and a myriad of other things that will appease the power source and placate our fears.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

No and it can be proven.

No, and WHAT can be proven???

Are you serious? The question was "Did man create God"? And I gave my answer.

 

[Foxfyre]

No and it can be proven.

No, and WHAT can be proven???

Are you serious? The question was "Did man create God"? And I gave my answer.

Oh okay. A lot of stuff has gone under the bridge since that opening post.

I don't disagree with your 'no'. I'm not sure I think you can prove it though.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Did man create God?

"And man has actually invented God. And what's strange, what would be marvelous, is not that God should really exist; the marvel is that such an idea, the idea of the necessity of God, could enter the head of such a savage, vicious beast as man. So holy it is, so touching, so wise and so great a credit it does to man. As for me, I've long resolved not to think whether man created God or God man." -Dostoevsky

Did man create God?

Of course.

dD

The End

 

[Lonestar_logic]

No, and WHAT can be proven???

Are you serious? The question was "Did man create God"? And I gave my answer.

Oh okay. A lot of stuff has gone under the bridge since that opening post.

I don't disagree with your 'no'. I'm not sure I think you can prove it though.

Proving it is really quite simple. The Bible was written thousands of years ago, that is a fact that can't be disputed and there are passages in the Bible that coincide with scientific principles that weren't widely accepted until hundreds of years after the Bible had been written. Here are some examples:

1. The Bible said the earth is round and is suspended in space:

In various verses, the Bible says the earth is round and that it is suspended in space:

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth..." (Isaiah 40:22, NIV). (By the way, the Hebrew language at that time did not have a word for "sphere," only for "circle.")

"He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing" (Job 26:7, NIV).

2. The Bible described the Hydrologic Cycle:

In various passages, the Bible describes a hydrologic cycle, the process by which clouds are formed, rain is produced and ground water is replenished. Science made the same discovery in the 1600s, long after the Bible passages were written. Here are the related Bible verses:

"He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight" (Job 26:8, NIV).

"He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind" (Job 36:27-28, NIV).

"The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again" (Ecclesiastes 1:6-7, NIV).

3. The Bible stated that the stars cannot be counted:

For centuries, scientists and astronomers thought they could count the precise number of stars in the universe. Brahe, for example, said there were 777. Kepler claimed the total was 1,005. Hipparchus said there were 1,022 stars. Ptolemy raised the number to 1,056. Eventually, scientists, including the great Galileo, concluded that the stars could not be numbered, just as the Bible had always claimed:

"I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars of the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore" (Jeremiah 33:22, NIV).

He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars--if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be." (Genesis 15:5, NIV).

4. The Bible stated the existence of valleys and springs in the seas:

Only until the past few hundred years did people have the technology to discover that there are deep valleys and fresh water springs in the oceans. But the Bible always knew:

"The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the Lord. . . " (2 Samuel 22:16, NIV).

"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month--on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. " (Genesis 7:11, NIV).

5. The Bible stated that kind words and laughter are good for one's health:

In recent years, American newspapers have published various reports that laughter releases chemicals within a person's body that can contribute to one's health. And, that depression and stress can weaken the immune system and contribute to various health problems. But, the Bible knew of the health virtues of laughter roughly 3,000 years ago when the Bible's book of Proverbs was recorded:

"Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones." (Proverbs 16:24, NIV).

"A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones." (Proverbs 17:22, NIV).

6. The Bible stated that stars differ from one another centuries before scientists reached the same conclusion:

Today we know that the stars in the skies are very different from one another, that they are made up of differing concentrations of different elements, and that they vary in their sizes, their ages and in their proximity to the earth. But the ancient people had no way to prove this. Even so, Paul, who received many insights from Yeshua, wrote a passage about 2000 years ago in the Bible's book of 1 Corinthians that said that the stars in the heavens did indeed differ from one another:

"The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor." (1 Corinthians 15:41).

Science vs the Bible

There are many statements in the Bible that speaks about scientific things that man couldn't have possibly known about things like, paleontology, astronomy, meteorology, biology (like the value of blood), anthropology, hydrology, geology and physics .

 

[Foxfyre]

Interesting apologetics Lonestar, and thanks. Some or maybe all of that can be explained purely by observation of the times, of course, but a lot of food for thought there.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I can't hear what you are saying


I can't hear what you are saying


I can't hear what you are saying

Interesting apologetics Lonestar, and thanks. Some or maybe all of that can be explained purely by observation of the times, of course, but a lot of food for thought there.

I can't hear what you are saying


I can't hear what you are saying


I can't hear what you are saying

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Interesting apologetics Lonestar, and thanks. Some or maybe all of that can be explained purely by observation of the times, of course, but a lot of food for thought there.

Hydrothermal vents (geysers on the seafloor) are described in two books of the Bible written before 1400BC—more than 3,000 years before their discovery by science.

Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Job 38:16
Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?

 

[Foxfyre]

Interesting apologetics Lonestar, and thanks. Some or maybe all of that can be explained purely by observation of the times, of course, but a lot of food for thought there.

Hydrothermal vents (geysers on the seafloor) are described in two books of the Bible written before 1400BC—more than 3,000 years before their discovery by science.

Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Job 38:16
Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?

All of which could be our modern interpretation and understanding read into ancient text in a way that was not in any way intended by ancient writers.

I am not saying you are wrong. I am mostly playing devil's advocate here as to how it is not convincing to the unbeliever to use the text that supports a religion as a basis of proof for the beliefs of that religion.

Some would even point to Erich von Däniken's Chariots of the Gods as an explanation for the unexplainable portions of the Bible. And they will do so despite Clifford Wilson's book Crash Go the Chariots severely criticizing Von Daniken's theories.

Nor can the unbeliever produce a single 'scientific theory' or other explanation or proof to disprove or falsify a belief in the existence of God.

Which, in my opinion, still leaves the personal encounter, the personal experience of God as the only proof available to us. I do believe with all my heart that such experience is available to anybody who wants it though.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Interesting apologetics Lonestar, and thanks. Some or maybe all of that can be explained purely by observation of the times, of course, but a lot of food for thought there.

Hydrothermal vents (geysers on the seafloor) are described in two books of the Bible written before 1400BC—more than 3,000 years before their discovery by science.

Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Job 38:16
Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?

All of which could be our modern interpretation and understanding read into ancient text in a way that was not in any way intended by ancient writers.

I am not saying you are wrong. I am mostly playing devil's advocate here as to how it is not convincing to the unbeliever to use the text that supports a religion as a basis of proof for the beliefs of that religion.

Some would even point to Erich von Däniken's Chariots of the Gods as an explanation for the unexplainable portions of the Bible. And they will do so despite Clifford Wilson's book Crash Go the Chariots severely criticizing Von Daniken's theories.

Nor can the unbeliever produce a single 'scientific theory' or other explanation or proof to disprove or falsify a belief in the existence of God.

Which, in my opinion, still leaves the personal encounter, the personal experience of God as the only proof available to us. I do believe with all my heart that such experience is available to anybody who wants it though.

Fact is no matter how much scientific or historical evidence proves the accuracy of the Bible, those who choose not to believe, won't.

Dr. Henry M. Morris concluded his in-depth study of the archeological evidence concerning the Bible with these words. "It must be extremely significant that, in view of the great mass of corroborative evidence regarding the Biblical history of these periods, there exists today not one unquestionable find of archaeology that proves the Bible to be in error at any point" (Henry M. Morris, The Bible and Modern Science, [Chicago:ÿMoody Press, 1956]).

Sir William Ramsay began his career in archaeology as a confirmed skeptic. He believed that Luke and Acts were written late in the second century and were historically inaccurate. After working a lifetime in the field he concluded: "Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy, he is possessed of the true historic sense...in short, this author should be placed along with the greatest of historians."

The great archaeologist, William F. Albright, said of the Bible: "Thanks to modern research we now recognize its substantial historicity. The narratives of the patriarchs, of Moses and the exodus, and of the conquest of Canaan, of the judges, the monarchy, exile and restoration, have all been confirmed and ilustrated to an extent that I should have thought impossible forty years ago."

The archaeologist Nelson Glueck said, "as a matter of fact, however, it may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference. Scores of archaeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or in exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical descriptions have often led to amazing discoveries."

The Accuracy of the Bible

 

[Foxfyre]

Hydrothermal vents (geysers on the seafloor) are described in two books of the Bible written before 1400BC—more than 3,000 years before their discovery by science.

Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Job 38:16
Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?

All of which could be our modern interpretation and understanding read into ancient text in a way that was not in any way intended by ancient writers.

I am not saying you are wrong. I am mostly playing devil's advocate here as to how it is not convincing to the unbeliever to use the text that supports a religion as a basis of proof for the beliefs of that religion.

Some would even point to Erich von Däniken's Chariots of the Gods as an explanation for the unexplainable portions of the Bible. And they will do so despite Clifford Wilson's book Crash Go the Chariots severely criticizing Von Daniken's theories.

Nor can the unbeliever produce a single 'scientific theory' or other explanation or proof to disprove or falsify a belief in the existence of God.

Which, in my opinion, still leaves the personal encounter, the personal experience of God as the only proof available to us. I do believe with all my heart that such experience is available to anybody who wants it though.

Fact is no matter how much scientific or historical evidence proves the accuracy of the Bible, those who choose not to believe, won't.

Dr. Henry M. Morris concluded his in-depth study of the archeological evidence concerning the Bible with these words. "It must be extremely significant that, in view of the great mass of corroborative evidence regarding the Biblical history of these periods, there exists today not one unquestionable find of archaeology that proves the Bible to be in error at any point" (Henry M. Morris, The Bible and Modern Science, [Chicago:ÿMoody Press, 1956]).

Sir William Ramsay began his career in archaeology as a confirmed skeptic. He believed that Luke and Acts were written late in the second century and were historically inaccurate. After working a lifetime in the field he concluded: "Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy, he is possessed of the true historic sense...in short, this author should be placed along with the greatest of historians."

The great archaeologist, William F. Albright, said of the Bible: "Thanks to modern research we now recognize its substantial historicity. The narratives of the patriarchs, of Moses and the exodus, and of the conquest of Canaan, of the judges, the monarchy, exile and restoration, have all been confirmed and ilustrated to an extent that I should have thought impossible forty years ago."

The archaeologist Nelson Glueck said, "as a matter of fact, however, it may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference. Scores of archaeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or in exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical descriptions have often led to amazing discoveries."

The Accuracy of the Bible

I don't disagree with any of these guys. But as you and I seem to agree, none of this is persuasive to he or she who is determined not to be persuaded.

I recently was privileged to sit in on a lecture given by a local university professor who for several years now has been helping supervise a massive arecheological excavation project in Jordan. The further they have gotten with the project, the more he became convinced that they are excavating the ancient Biblical City of Sodom. And he is joined in that theory by many other of his professional associates.

You can read about some of that here:
Excavation Programs

Of course this still is unconvincing to our nonbelieving friends, but I find it intensely interesting and, while we should always keep an open mind in these thngs, I hope their suspicions prove to be true.

 

[uscitizen]

No and it can be proven.

Yes and it can't be proven.

NOt sure what he is talking about but the odds are with me if I take an opposite viewpoint from LSL

 

[Gunny]

"And man has actually invented God. And what's strange, what would be marvelous, is not that God should really exist; the marvel is that such an idea, the idea of the necessity of God, could enter the head of such a savage, vicious beast as man. So holy it is, so touching, so wise and so great a credit it does to man. As for me, I've long resolved not to think whether man created God or God man." Dostoevsky

Just like he "created" "the Big Bang theory" -- something from nothing which defies sciences own laws"; expanding universe theory -- which defies scientific law, and the just right amount of primordial ooze created life theories?

Religion is religion. No matter what you try to disguise it as. Your religions defies its own laws/logic.

 

[Foxfyre]

"And man has actually invented God. And what's strange, what would be marvelous, is not that God should really exist; the marvel is that such an idea, the idea of the necessity of God, could enter the head of such a savage, vicious beast as man. So holy it is, so touching, so wise and so great a credit it does to man. As for me, I've long resolved not to think whether man created God or God man." Dostoevsky

Just like he "created" "the Big Bang theory" -- something from nothing which defies sciences own laws"; expanding universe theory -- which defies scientific law, and the just right amount of primordial ooze created life theories?

Religion is religion. No matter what you try to disguise it as. Your religions defies its own laws/logic.

After giving it considerable thought, I think it can be boiled down to several key theories:

1. The Big Boss theory supported mostly by Christians and Jews etc. that God (by whatever name) created everything that is in the universe.

a. Some believe it happened exactly as described in religious texts such as the Bible​

b. Some take the Biblical etc. accounts as allegory, metaphor, or symbol and go with an Intelligent Design motif that God set it all into motion so that it would evolve as it has.​

2. The Big Bang theory supported mostly by non-believers and many in the scientific community. They make no effort to define how the material got there in the first place, but attribute the universe to a massive explosion that resulted in all the objects and life forms in the universe.

3. The vacuum cleaner theory in which all the substance of the universe has always existed and is in its current form and shape by happenstance. It is described that if you put all the parts of a vacuum cleaner in a sack and, given unlimited time in which to work, you shook that sack, eventually, at some point, all those parts would have come together in the form of a working vacuum cleaner. Our universe is just the point that everything in the sack came together as it currently exists.

4. And then there is the Von Daniken theory that doesn't deal with origins, but does explain people on Earth and what they have accomplished as a result of space aliens.

And believers don't have to reject any of it in order to believe.

 

[lizzie]

After giving it considerable thought, I think it can be boiled down to several key theories:

1. The Big Boss theory supported mostly by Christians and Jews etc. that God (by whatever name) created everything that is in the universe.

a. Some believe it happened exactly as described in religious texts such as the Bible
​

b. Some take the Biblical etc. accounts as allegory, metaphor, or symbol and go with an Intelligent Design motif that God set it all into motion so that it would evolve as it has.
​

2. The Big Bang theory supported mostly by non-believers and many in the scientific community. They make no effort to define how the material got there in the first place, but attribute the universe to a massive explosion that resulted in all the objects and life forms in the universe.

3. The vacuum cleaner theory in which all the substance of the universe has always existed and is in its current form and shape by happenstance. It is described that if you put all the parts of a vacuum cleaner in a sack and, given unlimited time in which to work, you shook that sack, eventually, at some point, all those parts would have come together in the form of a working vacuum cleaner. Our universe is just the point that everything in the sack came together as it currently exists.

4. And then there is the Von Daniken theory that doesn't deal with origins, but does explain people on Earth and what they have accomplished as a result of space aliens.

And believers don't have to reject any of it in order to believe.

Out of the multiple choice test, I choose *all of the above*. At various times throughout my life, each one of those has worked for whatever state of being I was in at the time. At this point, I see anything as possible, and I can accept that I may be completely wrong. Thirty years ago, the idea of being wrong terrified me.

 

[Foxfyre]

After giving it considerable thought, I think it can be boiled down to several key theories:

1. The Big Boss theory supported mostly by Christians and Jews etc. that God (by whatever name) created everything that is in the universe.

a. Some believe it happened exactly as described in religious texts such as the Bible
​

b. Some take the Biblical etc. accounts as allegory, metaphor, or symbol and go with an Intelligent Design motif that God set it all into motion so that it would evolve as it has.
​

2. The Big Bang theory supported mostly by non-believers and many in the scientific community. They make no effort to define how the material got there in the first place, but attribute the universe to a massive explosion that resulted in all the objects and life forms in the universe.

3. The vacuum cleaner theory in which all the substance of the universe has always existed and is in its current form and shape by happenstance. It is described that if you put all the parts of a vacuum cleaner in a sack and, given unlimited time in which to work, you shook that sack, eventually, at some point, all those parts would have come together in the form of a working vacuum cleaner. Our universe is just the point that everything in the sack came together as it currently exists.

4. And then there is the Von Daniken theory that doesn't deal with origins, but does explain people on Earth and what they have accomplished as a result of space aliens.

And believers don't have to reject any of it in order to believe.

Out of the multiple choice test, I choose *all of the above*. At various times throughout my life, each one of those has worked for whatever state of being I was in at the time. At this point, I see anything as possible, and I can accept that I may be completely wrong. Thirty years ago, the idea of being wrong terrified me.

The thing is all the theories work even if you are a Christian unless you are of the strict fundamentalist type.

With the big bang, something had to light the fuse.

With the Vacuum Cleaner theory, something had to shake the sack.

With the visitors from outer space theory, well that could explain why Old Testament folks could see angels that we can't see.

And of course in whatever form, the Big Boss can be any form and/or intelligence that has always existed and the one component of it all that defies normal rules of beginnings and endings.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

Proving it is really quite simple. The Bible was written thousands of years ago, that is a fact that can't be disputed and there are passages in the Bible that coincide with scientific principles that weren't widely accepted until hundreds of years after the Bible had been written. Here are some examples:

1. The Bible said the earth is round and is suspended in space:

In various verses, the Bible says the earth is round and that it is suspended in space:

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth..." (Isaiah 40:22, NIV). (By the way, the Hebrew language at that time did not have a word for "sphere," only for "circle.")

"He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing" (Job 26:7, NIV).

2. The Bible described the Hydrologic Cycle:

In various passages, the Bible describes a hydrologic cycle, the process by which clouds are formed, rain is produced and ground water is replenished. Science made the same discovery in the 1600s, long after the Bible passages were written. Here are the related Bible verses:

"He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight" (Job 26:8, NIV).

"He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind" (Job 36:27-28, NIV).

"The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again" (Ecclesiastes 1:6-7, NIV).

3. The Bible stated that the stars cannot be counted:

For centuries, scientists and astronomers thought they could count the precise number of stars in the universe. Brahe, for example, said there were 777. Kepler claimed the total was 1,005. Hipparchus said there were 1,022 stars. Ptolemy raised the number to 1,056. Eventually, scientists, including the great Galileo, concluded that the stars could not be numbered, just as the Bible had always claimed:

"I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars of the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore" (Jeremiah 33:22, NIV).

He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars--if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be." (Genesis 15:5, NIV).

4. The Bible stated the existence of valleys and springs in the seas:

Only until the past few hundred years did people have the technology to discover that there are deep valleys and fresh water springs in the oceans. But the Bible always knew:

"The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the Lord. . . " (2 Samuel 22:16, NIV).

"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month--on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. " (Genesis 7:11, NIV).

5. The Bible stated that kind words and laughter are good for one's health:

In recent years, American newspapers have published various reports that laughter releases chemicals within a person's body that can contribute to one's health. And, that depression and stress can weaken the immune system and contribute to various health problems. But, the Bible knew of the health virtues of laughter roughly 3,000 years ago when the Bible's book of Proverbs was recorded:

"Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones." (Proverbs 16:24, NIV).

"A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones." (Proverbs 17:22, NIV).

6. The Bible stated that stars differ from one another centuries before scientists reached the same conclusion:

Today we know that the stars in the skies are very different from one another, that they are made up of differing concentrations of different elements, and that they vary in their sizes, their ages and in their proximity to the earth. But the ancient people had no way to prove this. Even so, Paul, who received many insights from Yeshua, wrote a passage about 2000 years ago in the Bible's book of 1 Corinthians that said that the stars in the heavens did indeed differ from one another:

"The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor." (1 Corinthians 15:41).

Science vs the Bible

There are many statements in the Bible that speaks about scientific things that man couldn't have possibly known about things like, paleontology, astronomy, meteorology, biology (like the value of blood), anthropology, hydrology, geology and physics .

WAIT. YOU'RE SAYING RAIN COMES FROM CLOUDS?!

Yeah there's no way those ancient civilizations could have figured it out if science is just learning that now. Amazing.

 

[Samson]

"And man has actually invented God. And what's strange, what would be marvelous, is not that God should really exist; the marvel is that such an idea, the idea of the necessity of God, could enter the head of such a savage, vicious beast as man. So holy it is, so touching, so wise and so great a credit it does to man. As for me, I've long resolved not to think whether man created God or God man." Dostoevsky

Just like he "created" "the Big Bang theory" -- something from nothing which defies sciences own laws"; expanding universe theory -- which defies scientific law, and the just right amount of primordial ooze created life theories?

Religion is religion. No matter what you try to disguise it as. Your religions defies its own laws/logic.

Do you really expect a small, monotheastic sect of nomadic shepards to be able to describe their god, and the creation of man in terms we would understand?



Hell, be happy you're not all dancing nekkid around a giant golden statue of an octopus every full moon......especially in January!!!!

not that I'd know.