Did Kerry Win?

no1tovote4

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Apr 13, 2004
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From the standpoint of style, there is no doubt that John Kerry "won" the debate. In terms of substance, those who understand the intricacies of foreign policy could argue that President Bush won on substance. But the fact is that John Kerry made a good "showing" and President Bush did not.

What did happen though, was something that most people missed. Either Mr. Kerry lacks knowledge so completely in foreign policy as to be fully unqualified to be the President (which I really don't think is the case), or he is displaying an immense character flaw.

It was displayed when Sen. Kerry brought up the fact that France, Germany and Britain were involved in a diplomatic initiative designed to force the Iranian government to abandon their nuclear ambitions. He alleged that the President exercised bad decision making by not being involved with this effort. It was plain that this statement clearly annoyed the President, who chose only to say that there was US involvement, and then quickly changed the subject.

This was the second of two opportunites that the President had to "slam the door" on John Kerry's presidential campaign, but chose to put foreign policy and national security above politics; he chose to risk losing the Presidency over political considerations, in effect, "taking one for the team".

First, understand that foreign policy is like magic; it isn't what you see that counts, it is what is going on behind the scenes. Often what you see is a diversion (called a feint in magic) to divert your attention.

Understanding that Iran is the epicenter of state sponsored radical Islamic terrorism, in its most simple form, the current strategy being employed is a case of "good cop, bad cop". The US, with its military might, is the "bad cop". We got rid of the Taliban and cleaned out the Al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan to position ourselves on Iran's eastern border (flank). We then rid Iraq and the world of Saddam, and took a position on Iran's western flank. With our fleet in the Persian Gulf (Iran's southern border), we now flank Iran, a country more than 5 times the size of Iraq and which has a formidible well trained well armed military, on three sides. We are now in a position to apply pressure (both internally and externally) to Iran which gives us the "teeth" in diplomatic negotions that were never present before, the lack of which was the reason that diplomatic negotiations had never worked in the past.

But we are the "great Satan". Iran will resist any attempts at diplomacy launched by the US. But France and Germany are a different story. They are trading partners with Iran, and are welcomed there for their part in resisting the US action in the UN, and for not participating with us. They are the "good cops". Britain becomes the middle man, interested in finding and maintaining peace. All of this fits the public sentiment of these nations.

Their job is to negotiate politely with Iran, with the background inference that if an agreement is reached, they can keep the "bad cop" from kicking Irans butt, by removing the military presence which is also serving to motivate the reform movement in Iran to overthrow their government. This is applying tremendous pressure on Iran; a strategy that could save tens of thousands of lives over a military confrontation that might otherwise have become necessary.

Look at the entire picture. It is an exceptional strategy by the administration that IS working.

But to work properly, the US cannot be seen, at least publically, as the driving force behind it. Now, either John Kerry has no understanding of the situation and its delicate nature, or else he knows that the President cannot discuss it and therefore threw it up in his face as a "bad decision" not to be involved with France, Germany and Britain. That would be a despicable character flaw. What he did was "bait" the President with something that, had the President chosen to address in full would have jeopardized the success of the plan, and thereby the national security of this country.

The President chose instead to jeopardize his own Presidency and the opportunity to "knock out" John Kerry, rather than jeopardize the national security of America. By his action taking this tactic, it tells me that John Kerry is the type of person that, had the situations been reversed, would have taken the offensive, and put his candidacy above the national security of this country. And therein you have the measure of the character of each man.

Did John Kerry win the "debate"? On the surface I'll concede that... but if the voters in America use that as the measure by which to elect their new President rather than by the character displayed by each, and by the leadership displayed by President Bush in this strategy, they may well be making a grave mistake.

Unfortunately, too many Americans base their decision on Political rhetoric; they have a "soundbyte" mentality. This unfortunately, spans both Republicans, Democrats and all others. Relatively few people fully understand the intricacies of the situation and the strategies being employed, but rather than research the subject and gain the knowledge and facts required to form their own opinion, they often change the subject or resort to accusations and name-calling.

Being truthful to yourself, how many people do you know that had even considered the "good cop, bad cop" strategy before last night's debate, and understood that a public admission of it being a US strategy could derail it. If they knew that, they would understand that bringing the subject up was bad; but using it to throw in the President's face as an example of a bad decision fully knowing that the appearance of the US not being involved was critical to its success, that in fact it was a masterfull strategy, and that the President could not respond without putting politics over national security was despicable.

I implore the reader to do their own research, and have the knowledge necessary to make a truly informed decision. Regardless of which candidate is elected we will have our work cut out for us. For instance: border security. The Republicans want cheap labor, the Democrats want voters. Neither has made a truly significant effort to close a hole in our defenses that an army could come through, much less a handfull of terrorists that could easily provide us with our own Beslan.

I think the opportunity for cheap labor and votes pales in comparison when it is your own children and grand-children who are traumatized and won't leave their parents sides much less go to school for fear of being killed; or who were killed in such a situation.
 
Unfortunately, too many Americans base their decision on Political rhetoric; they have a "soundbyte" mentality. This unfortunately, spans both Republicans, Democrats and all others. Relatively few people fully understand the intricacies of the situation and the strategies being employed, but rather than research the subject and gain the knowledge and facts required to form their own opinion, they often change the subject or resort to accusations and name-calling.

If we are determining who won on soundbytes, then clearly Kerry lost. Kerry's soundbytes just destroy him. Democrats couldnt get any good attacks from Bush's remarks.
 
Avatar4321 said:
If we are determining who won on soundbytes, then clearly Kerry lost. Kerry's soundbytes just destroy him. Democrats couldnt get any good attacks from Bush's remarks.


Fair enough, but the echo chamber seems to give Kerry more in the polls than the sounbyte battle. My attempt is to make it clear that not only did Kerry fail, but he made fatal flaws that with actual education will leave him out to pasture after this election.
 
Bush did not take advantage of so many opportunities to knock Kerry out of the box. It makes one wonder why. I am sure some of it has to do with what No1toVote4 has posted. One of Kerry's big arguments is that he would not have started a pre-emptive war with Iraq unless a big international coalition had first been built to support it. Yet Bush 41 built a huge coalition to fight Saddam when he invaded Kuwait, but John Kerry voted against Desert Storm. No one has asked Kerry to justify his current argument with his vote at that time. Seems like a huge loophole to me that Kerry is getting a pass on.
 
Avatar4321 said:
If we are determining who won on soundbytes, then clearly Kerry lost. Kerry's soundbytes just destroy him. Democrats couldnt get any good attacks from Bush's remarks.

Mostly because they were grimaces, smirks and parrot-like recitations of the party line. And let's not forget the hesitation the stumbling and halting manner of his delivery, his single-minded repition of pat phrases, his inflexibility and arrogance. All characteristic of the cognitive impairments related to his 20+ years of ETOH abuse as well as his untreated alcoholism.

He did however make a significant gaff when he tried to, yet again, make a connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein where no substantiated link exists.
 
Bullypulpit said:
Mostly because they were grimaces, smirks and parrot-like recitations of the party line. And let's not forget the hesitation the stumbling and halting manner of his delivery, his single-minded repition of pat phrases, his inflexibility and arrogance. All characteristic of the cognitive impairments related to his 20+ years of ETOH abuse as well as his untreated alcoholism.

He did however make a significant gaff when he tried to, yet again, make a connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein where no substantiated link exists.

What? you think Bush should be happy that John Kerry lied directly to the American people when he knew better? You think Bush should be happy that Kerry is trying to goad him to compromise national security to beat him in the debate?

Fact is Kerry had one thing to prove in the debate. that he was consistant. He failed. not only that he gave the Bush team enough ammunition to annihilate them. the Nuclear fuel comment alone would be enough.
 
Bullypulpit said:
Mostly because they were grimaces, smirks and parrot-like recitations of the party line. And let's not forget the hesitation the stumbling and halting manner of his delivery, his single-minded repition of pat phrases, his inflexibility and arrogance. All characteristic of the cognitive impairments related to his 20+ years of ETOH abuse as well as his untreated alcoholism.

He did however make a significant gaff when he tried to, yet again, make a connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein where no substantiated link exists.

Yes and lets also remember that Bush was in Fla handing out water to hurricane victims, while Kerry was getting a manicure and Mystic spray on tan. Kerry had plenty of time to remember and memerize his propaganda. What a phoney!!!
 
Bonnie said:
Kerry had plenty of time to remember and memerize his propaganda. What a phoney!!!

Memorizing propaganda? Here's a brief synopsis of Dubya's statement: "It's hard work! It's very hard work. It's hard work, and I know that! It's the hardest work there is to be done. It's hard work, and I know it's hard work!"

Bush said NOTHING. Here's a link: http://www.pleasurecaptains.com/favor/howsmall.html
 
nakedemperor said:
Memorizing propaganda? Here's a brief synopsis of Dubya's statement: "It's hard work! It's very hard work. It's hard work, and I know that! It's the hardest work there is to be done. It's hard work, and I know it's hard work!"

Bush said NOTHING. Here's a link: http://www.pleasurecaptains.com/favor/howsmall.html

Bush said the same thing he has been saying all along, Whilst Kerry said here is my new plan, Im going to do everything Bush is doing only Im going to do it better and Im going to kiss Chirac and Annan's ASS :kiss2:

You are a smart guy, you know better than that? :scratch:
 
nakedemperor said:
Memorizing propaganda? Here's a brief synopsis of Dubya's statement: "It's hard work! It's very hard work. It's hard work, and I know that! It's the hardest work there is to be done. It's hard work, and I know it's hard work!"

Bush said NOTHING. Here's a link: http://www.pleasurecaptains.com/favor/howsmall.html

Bush has answered these questions a thousand times and it's basically all the same answer. I'd get pissed too if people didn't listen to me. I woulda just said " It's all on record and it's still the same answer". Kerry had a lot of explaining to do so he had LOTS to talk about. (and he STILL got it wrong)
 
dilloduck said:
Bush has answered these questions a thousand times and it's basically all the same answer. I'd get pissed too if people didn't listen to me. I woulda just said " It's all on record and it's still the same answer". Kerry had a lot of explaining to do so he had LOTS to talk about. (and he STILL got it wrong)

On top of which Kerry finally comes up with some kind of weird senblance of conviction 40 or so days before the actual election, and now the Dems are in orgasmic rapture that Kerry had a strong point of view for 10 minutes straight?????????, Never mind it's a ridiculous point of view?
 
According to the Gallup polls on the debate, Bush won on all the issues....when the debate was disected.

so Kerry looked good for an ugly longface horseman with his perty lipstick and blush....big deal.
 
tnfzpaul said:
According to the Gallup polls on the debate, Bush won on all the issues....when the debate was disected.

so Kerry looked good for an ugly longface horseman with his perty lipstick and blush....big deal.

I think Bush had Kerry on the ropes for the first 40 minutes or so, then he got soft on Kerry. Hopefully the second time around Bush will remember the lying SOB he is debating with and decide to not take the hight road, but get down in the muck where kerry and the Democrats are. I have faith he will. Bush has the truth on his side, he just needs to hammer it home harder.
 
Bonnie said:
I think Bush had Kerry on the ropes for the first 40 minutes or so, then he got soft on Kerry. Hopefully the second time around Bush will remember the lying SOB he is debating with and decide to not take the hight road, but get down in the muck where kerry and the Democrats are. I have faith he will. Bush has the truth on his side, he just needs to hammer it home harder.

Exactly, and the people of this United States know that, or the most of them anyway,...and if I may quote...."according to the gallup poll, they do" :rotflmao:

Truth will usually beat non truth.

Well, I hope it does.
 
Bonnie said:
I think Bush had Kerry on the ropes for the first 40 minutes or so, then he got soft on Kerry.


:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

Bush was on the defensive the whole time! Stammering and studdering his way through material you could fit on ONE index card, he looked tired, flustered, irritated, and unpresidential. How you can think Bush "had Kerry on the ropes" is beyond me. The man was sitting in silence trying to come up with the words "its hard work" about a dozen times! This spin is UNBELIEVABLE! On some other thread someone said that they LIKED that Bush studdered and was ineloquent, because it made him seem "more real". :wtf: Yet another conservative trying to salvage that shit show of a debate on the part of the incumbent said Bush wasn't studdering or brain frozen, he was "merely taking his time searching for the best way to say something". :wtf: Bush got his head handed to him on a platter, and say that Bush won on substance.. WHAT SUBSTANCE!? "Its hard work!" "I knew bin Laden attacked us! Of course I knew that!" "See we're going after Saddam Hussein--er, I mean, Osama bin Laden." Give me a break.
 
nakedemperor said:
Memorizing propaganda? Here's a brief synopsis of Dubya's statement: "It's hard work! It's very hard work. It's hard work, and I know that! It's the hardest work there is to be done. It's hard work, and I know it's hard work!"

Bush said NOTHING. Here's a link: http://www.pleasurecaptains.com/favor/howsmall.html

And here's a synopsis of Horseface's statements:

I agree with that, but...
I would do that, but...
I said that, but...
I believe that, but...
I voted for that, but...
I voted against that, but...
I would have done that, but...

How many buts does this guy need?
 
Just the ones flying out his arse ..Oh wait, those are monkeys.

Kerry: I support the removal of Saddam/ Wrong war wrong time....Unilateral in iraq = bad, Unilateral in North Korea = good.

Are we all aware that in Gulf War 1 , with UN aproval, with a 40 nation coalition, with unprovaked invasion staring the world in the face - Kerry voted "No."

The vast right wing conspiracy is pushing hard to minimalize Kerry's temporary advandtage by mudslingling the Truth at Kerry : Good posture and a glow from the Spa don't make up for a good script from james Carville.

And the same Clintonista advisors can't undo Kerry's voting record.
 
nakedemperor said:
:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

Bush was on the defensive the whole time! Stammering and studdering his way through material you could fit on ONE index card, he looked tired, flustered, irritated, and unpresidential. How you can think Bush "had Kerry on the ropes" is beyond me. The man was sitting in silence trying to come up with the words "its hard work" about a dozen times! This spin is UNBELIEVABLE! On some other thread someone said that they LIKED that Bush studdered and was ineloquent, because it made him seem "more real". :wtf: Yet another conservative trying to salvage that shit show of a debate on the part of the incumbent said Bush wasn't studdering or brain frozen, he was "merely taking his time searching for the best way to say something". :wtf: Bush got his head handed to him on a platter, and say that Bush won on substance.. WHAT SUBSTANCE!? "Its hard work!" "I knew bin Laden attacked us! Of course I knew that!" "See we're going after Saddam Hussein--er, I mean, Osama bin Laden." Give me a break.

Emp. Forgive me, but...I do not understand why you think it is fact that Bush has his head handed to Kerry on a platter when all polling data indicates that Bush wne on the issues. Sir, respectfully, your argument does not hold water.
I am now going to deflate your argument Emp.


How has your opinion of John Kerry/George W. Bush been affected by the debate? Is your opinion of Kerry -- more favorable, less favorable, or has it not changed much? [Names rotated.]


However, viewers did not change their minds about who would do a better job in Iraq or better serve as the country's military leader.

Prior to the debate, viewers chose Bush over Kerry in handling the Iraq war by 54% to 40%. After the debate, the comparable figures were essentially unchanged, 54% to 43%.

Next, regardless of which presidential candidate you support, please tell me if you think John Kerry or George W. Bush would better handle the situation in Iraq.

Similarly, viewers pointed to Bush as the candidate they would trust more to handle the responsibilities of commander in chief -- before the debate by 55% to 42%, and after the debate by 54% to 44%.

Who do you trust more to handle the responsibilities of commander in chief of the military -- [ROTATED: John Kerry, (or) George W. Bush]?

Viewers saw Kerry as more articulate in the debate than Bush (60% to 32%), though they divided equally as to which candidate had a better understanding of the issues (41% each).

Thinking about the following characteristics and qualities, please say whether you think each one better described John Kerry or George W. Bush during tonight's debate. How about -- [Random Order]?


Viewers leaned toward Bush on which candidate agreed with them on issues, who was more believable, and who was more likable. And by 54% to 37%, viewers said Bush better demonstrated he is tough enough for the job.

These results are based on a CNN/USA Today/Gallup survey, conducted Thursday night immediately after the end of the presidential debate, which ended at 10:30 p.m. Eastern time. Respondents in the sample were first interviewed Sept. 28-29, when they indicated they expected to watch the debate and that they were willing to be called when the debate finished.

In that pre-debate survey, 52% of the viewers who were included in Thursday night's sample said they supported Bush and 44% supported Kerry, similar to the vote preference measured among likely voters in the Sept. 24-26 CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll. Thirty-six percent of Thursday night's viewers identified themselves as Republicans, 32% as independents, and 32% as Democrats.
 
Now, from experience, I comtemplate that the next move from you will be to.....ehhh, discredit the gallup poll and or all polls.

Please, save it my friend, because democrats and liberals alike also reference the gallup regularly. :mm:

I give myself applause. :clap:
 
no1tovote4 said:
From the standpoint of style, there is no doubt that John Kerry "won" the debate. In terms of substance, those who understand the intricacies of foreign policy could argue that President Bush won on substance. But the fact is that John Kerry made a good "showing" and President Bush did not.

What did happen though, was something that most people missed. Either Mr. Kerry lacks knowledge so completely in foreign policy as to be fully unqualified to be the President (which I really don't think is the case), or he is displaying an immense character flaw.

It was displayed when Sen. Kerry brought up the fact that France, Germany and Britain were involved in a diplomatic initiative designed to force the Iranian government to abandon their nuclear ambitions. He alleged that the President exercised bad decision making by not being involved with this effort. It was plain that this statement clearly annoyed the President, who chose only to say that there was US involvement, and then quickly changed the subject.

This was the second of two opportunites that the President had to "slam the door" on John Kerry's presidential campaign, but chose to put foreign policy and national security above politics; he chose to risk losing the Presidency over political considerations, in effect, "taking one for the team".

First, understand that foreign policy is like magic; it isn't what you see that counts, it is what is going on behind the scenes. Often what you see is a diversion (called a feint in magic) to divert your attention.

Understanding that Iran is the epicenter of state sponsored radical Islamic terrorism, in its most simple form, the current strategy being employed is a case of "good cop, bad cop". The US, with its military might, is the "bad cop". We got rid of the Taliban and cleaned out the Al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan to position ourselves on Iran's eastern border (flank). We then rid Iraq and the world of Saddam, and took a position on Iran's western flank. With our fleet in the Persian Gulf (Iran's southern border), we now flank Iran, a country more than 5 times the size of Iraq and which has a formidible well trained well armed military, on three sides. We are now in a position to apply pressure (both internally and externally) to Iran which gives us the "teeth" in diplomatic negotions that were never present before, the lack of which was the reason that diplomatic negotiations had never worked in the past.

But we are the "great Satan". Iran will resist any attempts at diplomacy launched by the US. But France and Germany are a different story. They are trading partners with Iran, and are welcomed there for their part in resisting the US action in the UN, and for not participating with us. They are the "good cops". Britain becomes the middle man, interested in finding and maintaining peace. All of this fits the public sentiment of these nations.

Their job is to negotiate politely with Iran, with the background inference that if an agreement is reached, they can keep the "bad cop" from kicking Irans butt, by removing the military presence which is also serving to motivate the reform movement in Iran to overthrow their government. This is applying tremendous pressure on Iran; a strategy that could save tens of thousands of lives over a military confrontation that might otherwise have become necessary.

Look at the entire picture. It is an exceptional strategy by the administration that IS working.

But to work properly, the US cannot be seen, at least publically, as the driving force behind it. Now, either John Kerry has no understanding of the situation and its delicate nature, or else he knows that the President cannot discuss it and therefore threw it up in his face as a "bad decision" not to be involved with France, Germany and Britain. That would be a despicable character flaw. What he did was "bait" the President with something that, had the President chosen to address in full would have jeopardized the success of the plan, and thereby the national security of this country.

The President chose instead to jeopardize his own Presidency and the opportunity to "knock out" John Kerry, rather than jeopardize the national security of America. By his action taking this tactic, it tells me that John Kerry is the type of person that, had the situations been reversed, would have taken the offensive, and put his candidacy above the national security of this country. And therein you have the measure of the character of each man.

Did John Kerry win the "debate"? On the surface I'll concede that... but if the voters in America use that as the measure by which to elect their new President rather than by the character displayed by each, and by the leadership displayed by President Bush in this strategy, they may well be making a grave mistake.

Unfortunately, too many Americans base their decision on Political rhetoric; they have a "soundbyte" mentality. This unfortunately, spans both Republicans, Democrats and all others. Relatively few people fully understand the intricacies of the situation and the strategies being employed, but rather than research the subject and gain the knowledge and facts required to form their own opinion, they often change the subject or resort to accusations and name-calling.

Being truthful to yourself, how many people do you know that had even considered the "good cop, bad cop" strategy before last night's debate, and understood that a public admission of it being a US strategy could derail it. If they knew that, they would understand that bringing the subject up was bad; but using it to throw in the President's face as an example of a bad decision fully knowing that the appearance of the US not being involved was critical to its success, that in fact it was a masterfull strategy, and that the President could not respond without putting politics over national security was despicable.

I implore the reader to do their own research, and have the knowledge necessary to make a truly informed decision. Regardless of which candidate is elected we will have our work cut out for us. For instance: border security. The Republicans want cheap labor, the Democrats want voters. Neither has made a truly significant effort to close a hole in our defenses that an army could come through, much less a handfull of terrorists that could easily provide us with our own Beslan.

I think the opportunity for cheap labor and votes pales in comparison when it is your own children and grand-children who are traumatized and won't leave their parents sides much less go to school for fear of being killed; or who were killed in such a situation.

And now Iran is putting forward the figurative olive branch and is willing to have talks about and is considering putting on hold their nuclear weapons programs in favor of help with civilian use nuclear power. It appears that the plan is working. Too bad it will be missed by more than half of the country that this is what has happened.
 

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