Did Jephthah actually slay his daughter?

[JoeB131]

Well, your prayers don't mean anything, either, and for the same reasons the vow meant nothing.

My prayers meant nothing because there was no fairy in the sky to listen to them.

So probably a good thing I didn't sacrifice anyone. I could have gotten in trouble for that.

But in the context of the story, the vow did mean something. Jephy made a vow that he didn't clearly think out. But he was so terrified of his sky fairy (which keep in mind, has spent the previous six books of the bible doing horrible things to both the Hebrews and their enemies) that he felt that the only option he had was to butcher his young daughter (probably less than 14), and then burn the parts on an altar. Because otherwise God might do horrible things to his people if he didn't follow through. He did horrible things to them for a lot less, after all.

 

[SweetSue92]

Well, your prayers don't mean anything, either, and for the same reasons the vow meant nothing.

My prayers meant nothing because there was no fairy in the sky to listen to them.

So probably a good thing I didn't sacrifice anyone. I could have gotten in trouble for that.

But in the context of the story, the vow did mean something. Jephy made a vow that he didn't clearly think out. But he was so terrified of his sky fairy (which keep in mind, has spent the previous six books of the bible doing horrible things to both the Hebrews and their enemies) that he felt that the only option he had was to butcher his young daughter (probably less than 14), and then burn the parts on an altar. Because otherwise God might do horrible things to his people if he didn't follow through. He did horrible things to them for a lot less, after all.

Joe didn't get his way, thus there is no God.

Okay. Joe.

 

[JoeB131]

Joe didn't get his way, thus there is no God.

Okay. Joe.

No, there is no God because God didn't do the right thing in this case. Or most cases.

Just remember, God can't be bothered to help someone's cancer get better, but he'll make sure Tebow wins a football game... Or not. how's his career gone lately?

The universe is chaotic.... which is just fine, as long as you accept that and get on with your life, you'll be fine.

Trying to impose your bronze age stupidity on the rest of us, that's where i have a problem with you people.

 

[SweetSue92]

Joe didn't get his way, thus there is no God.

Okay. Joe.

No, there is no God because God didn't do the right thing in this case. Or most cases.

Just remember, God can't be bothered to help someone's cancer get better, but he'll make sure Tebow wins a football game... Or not. how's his career gone lately?

The universe is chaotic.... which is just fine, as long as you accept that and get on with your life, you'll be fine.

Trying to impose your bronze age stupidity on the rest of us, that's where i have a problem with you people.

All I can say to you is that you don't reason through these things like one might expect a mature person to reason through them. It's like something affected your emotional maturation process at about age 14 and you're stuck there, at least when it comes to this. It's like "I didn't get what I wanted and that's not fair. Therefore, no God."

I can't reason with that, Joe. I must deal with it like you would deal with a hormonal young teenager whose frontal cortex is not fully developed. So I just say, "Okay, Joe."

 

[JoeB131]

All I can say to you is that you don't reason through these things like one might expect a mature person to reason through them. It's like something affected your emotional maturation process at about age 14 and you're stuck there, at least when it comes to this. It's like "I didn't get what I wanted and that's not fair. Therefore, no God."

I can't reason with that, Joe. I must deal with it like you would deal with a hormonal young teenager whose frontal cortex is not fully developed. So I just say, "Okay, Joe."

No, you can't reason with it because it exposes the illogical nature of your faith. If your God was good and truly listened to prayers, then people would get better when people prayed for them. They don't.

Tornadoes destroy churches and spare whorehouses.

Now, if one wanted to be a Deist and say God created the universe but takes no hand it, that's one thing. That's NOT what you Xians preach. You preach TOTAL FUCKING OBEDIENCE!!!! Or God will DO HORRIBLE THINGS TO YOU.

Except horrible things happen to good people, and good things happen to horrible people. Because- again- No God.

So instead of going around telling people what kind of sex they should be having or what they can and can't eat, just enjoy life. You'll be a happier person.

 

[hobelim]

A lot of people would stand to gain from learning about the society and culture of the times, as that would clear up a lot of confusion and misunderstandings as to word meanings as well.

Great suggestion. Why don't you tell someone in the church that Satan is not an invisible disembodied entity trying to live in believers heads. If people don't laugh out loud, take it literally, and actually swallow that garbage, it could lead to a mental illness plague of biblical proportions..I shit you not. It already has. Ask yourself. Would a sane person read the bible and then worship a trinity? Would a sane person read about Jesus and then turn to a lifeless matzo for spiritual life?

The word for a talking serpent in Hebrew is Nachash, which is both a noun and an adjective that means serpent, brazen, shiny one, and or one who practices divination, sorcery...mind control, a lowlife human being, the stars of the ancient world, making an all out bid, even now, to take over the nations in the name of insanity.

They are very interesting creatures, but stupid. At the resurrection all the dead will rise, all those sleeping in the dust of the earth will awaken, the deceived and the deceiver, the killed and the killer. Many will rise to the glory of everlasting life, some to the shame of eternal abhorrence.


Have you been deceived or are you a deceiver? Take your time. Time will tell.

 

[SweetSue92]

All I can say to you is that you don't reason through these things like one might expect a mature person to reason through them. It's like something affected your emotional maturation process at about age 14 and you're stuck there, at least when it comes to this. It's like "I didn't get what I wanted and that's not fair. Therefore, no God."

I can't reason with that, Joe. I must deal with it like you would deal with a hormonal young teenager whose frontal cortex is not fully developed. So I just say, "Okay, Joe."

No, you can't reason with it because it exposes the illogical nature of your faith. If your God was good and truly listened to prayers, then people would get better when people prayed for them. They don't.

Tornadoes destroy churches and spare whorehouses.

Now, if one wanted to be a Deist and say God created the universe but takes no hand it, that's one thing. That's NOT what you Xians preach. You preach TOTAL FUCKING OBEDIENCE!!!! Or God will DO HORRIBLE THINGS TO YOU.

Except horrible things happen to good people, and good things happen to horrible people. Because- again- No God.

So instead of going around telling people what kind of sex they should be having or what they can and can't eat, just enjoy life. You'll be a happier person.

Joe you don't even know that Jesus said the rain falls on the just and the unjust. (Matthew 5:45). In fact you are like most anti-Christians, thinking you know much but actually knowing very little.

 

[hobelim]

No, you can't reason with it because it exposes the illogical nature of your faith. If your God was good and truly listened to prayers, then people would get better when people prayed for them. They don't.

I think that if God answered prayers for people to not die of natural causes then he would really be evil. Can you imagine people running around this planet like a crazy bug in an empty jar for all eternity? Every now and then you find some lettuce but you're always looking for a gnat. You haven't thought this through. Eternity is a very long time. Bad shit happens on this planet on a regular basis that has nothing to do with God, nothing to do with whether you are naughty or nice. You must have noticed. And that doesn't even include the fucked up things that people do to each other daily.

I say its a good thing he doesn't listen, death is far more merciful. Come on now. Everyone, believers and unbelievers alike, saw with their own eyes treason being committed live on national TV and everyone, believers and unbelievers alike are sitting around scratching their heads waiting and wondering where's the proof.

What the hell is that? You want to be subjected to that forever?

Tornadoes destroy churches and spare whorehouses.

And? Did it bring a tear to your eye?

 

[foggedinn]

Jesus said it is a sin to take an oath, so yes, that makes sense.

I don't know that Jesus said that it is a sin to make a vow. It is certainly a sin to make a vow and then break it.

 

[Picaro]

Well, your prayers don't mean anything, either, and for the same reasons the vow meant nothing.

My prayers meant nothing because there was no fairy in the sky to listen to them.

So probably a good thing I didn't sacrifice anyone. I could have gotten in trouble for that.

But in the context of the story, the vow did mean something. Jephy made a vow that he didn't clearly think out. But he was so terrified of his sky fairy (which keep in mind, has spent the previous six books of the bible doing horrible things to both the Hebrews and their enemies) that he felt that the only option he had was to butcher his young daughter (probably less than 14), and then burn the parts on an altar. Because otherwise God might do horrible things to his people if he didn't follow through. He did horrible things to them for a lot less, after all.

Joe didn't get his way, thus there is no God.

Okay. Joe.

The country and blues musician Chris Stapleton has a great line in one of his songs about musicians looking to hit the big time, and their prayers are basically '..., begging Angels for a sin' that speaks to a lot of what people pray for, selfish narcissistic personal needs, and then they complain when they aren't answered. This parable in the OP also points that out in part; same logic.

 

[Picaro]

Canaanites = "buy, sell (merchants & traffickers)"

They can also represent all humanity, or the people of the land of milk and honey. They represent many things, depending on context and the book they're used in. My reference is to the practice of human sacrifice; it's reviled by Jews, and also by Romans, oddly enough; Romans hated Druids, Carthaginians, and any other pagan peoples who practiced human sacrifice.

The Bible should be read as the Bible presents itself. The Bible is not a word-study book. It is helpful to know the history of the Canaanites but the Canaanites do not present in the Bible as a topic for word-study. Everything in the Bible should be taken as it presents itself as much as possible, without us overlaying our own agenda on it.

Well, actually it is very much a book full of dualisms, symbolism, allegories, parables, and numerology; the real fundamentalists know this; it's written on many levels, and even the fundamentalist schools are now studying and find ever more complex chiasms and chiastic structure that pervades the entire book.

Those that can't grasp or feel uncomfortable with the higher level exegeses or are just intellectually lazy can always rely on the Sermon on the Mount to guide them and be fine. It was not written by idiots or crazies, it's all of a piece and sophisticated literature. A lot of people would stand to gain from learning about the society and culture of the times, as that would clear up a lot of confusion and misunderstandings as to word meanings as well.

Learning about the societies and cultures of the times is part of the history that's presented, of course. So is making connections between books and testaments. But you can go way, way too far with word studies and every part of exegeses and overlay meaning that is simply too far. You generally know you have gone too far when you stop seeing the material presented as simple history and begin seeing is as "allegory" or "metaphor" when it is not presented as such.

I understand why that makes many people nervous, and those people probably shouldn't, but others are capable of that, and want to understand why, for instance, in one part of Genesis there is the claim of 'one pair of each animal', while in another the writers claim 'two pairs of unclean animals and seven pairs of clean animals'; is that an error, a contradiction, or is the meanings and lessons quite different? For those who spend time learning how to read the books it's not a contradiction or an error at all. Another example is the differences in the Mathew's genealogy of Jesus versus Luke's; and many more.

 

[Picaro]

They can also represent all humanity, or the people of the land of milk and honey. They represent many things, depending on context and the book they're used in. My reference is to the practice of human sacrifice; it's reviled by Jews, and also by Romans, oddly enough; Romans hated Druids, Carthaginians, and any other pagan peoples who practiced human sacrifice.

The Bible should be read as the Bible presents itself. The Bible is not a word-study book. It is helpful to know the history of the Canaanites but the Canaanites do not present in the Bible as a topic for word-study. Everything in the Bible should be taken as it presents itself as much as possible, without us overlaying our own agenda on it.

Well, actually it is very much a book full of dualisms, symbolism, allegories, parables, and numerology; the real fundamentalists know this; it's written on many levels, and even the fundamentalist schools are now studying and find ever more complex chiasms and chiastic structure that pervades the entire book.

Those that can't grasp or feel uncomfortable with the higher level exegeses or are just intellectually lazy can always rely on the Sermon on the Mount to guide them and be fine. It was not written by idiots or crazies, it's all of a piece and sophisticated literature. A lot of people would stand to gain from learning about the society and culture of the times, as that would clear up a lot of confusion and misunderstandings as to word meanings as well.

Learning about the societies and cultures of the times is part of the history that's presented, of course. So is making connections between books and testaments. But you can go way, way too far with word studies and every part of exegeses and overlay meaning that is simply too far. You generally know you have gone too far when you stop seeing the material presented as simple history and begin seeing is as "allegory" or "metaphor" when it is not presented as such.

Well again, much of it is indeed presented as what it is, multiple meanings, links to other parts of the bible, and dualisms, especially in the apocalyptic texts; it is written from four different perspectives, all with different agendas they want to convey. If you're uncomfortable with that, that's fine; those of us who do study it aren't upset by it's complexities.

Those interested in deeper learning should find some basic texts on how to read the bible; it is indeed a skill. An intro text like Randstra's Reading the Old Testament: An introduction to the Hebrew Bible will make it less confusing and uncomfortable with the dualisms and allegorical references.

Though the literary material of the Hebrew Bible is ancient compared to the Western literary tradition, this does not mean it is primitive or artless. The Hebrew tradition utilized a rich repertoire of literary techniques. The stylistic techniques and literary strategies we will notice in the text include hyperbole, metaphor, symbolism, allegory, personification, irony, wordplay, and parallelism.

.... The major genres found in in the Hebrew Bible include narrative, prophecy, law, hymn, proverb, chronicle, and genealogy.

So, the term 'literalist' is not what many think it means re the bible; the real genuine literalists and 'fundies' recognize the complexities and try to learn about this stuff.. What the media and Hollywood considers as 'the Fundies' is just their own pseudo-intellectual ignorance showing.

Okay but Judges is not an apocalyptic text. It's not even a book of prophecy. It's a book of history. So I don't know why you're going on and on as if I don't understand the basics here. I do, and you're still throwing up smoke and mirrors. Understanding whatever about the Hebrew is not going to change the fact that Judges is not a prophecy.

Judges is written from multiple perspectives, like most of the other books. This story in the OP is rife with symbolism, allegory, and names that have other meanings than merely surnames.

 

[Picaro]

Structure of Judges, for those who want to learn more about the book and what its overall themes are, and the role of chiasms in the particular case of the book of Judges, which is essentially geo-politics surrounding Gideon and the role of Israel's surrounding enemies.

Literary structure (chiasm, chiasmus) of Book of Judges: Whole structure

Literary structure (chiasm, chiasmus) of each pericopes of Book of Judges

People whodon't study the bible and learn of the multiple layers of meanings are missing most of what it tries to teach. The various styles serve to make it a much shorter book by the devices used; if all the meanings were told separately and without such tools, the book would be unreadable and massive.

 

[RodISHI]

Structure of Judges, for those who want to learn more about the book and what its overall themes are, and the role of chiasms in the particular case of the book of Judges, which is essentially geo-politics surrounding Gideon and the role of Israel's surrounding enemies.

Literary structure (chiasm, chiasmus) of Book of Judges: Whole structure

Literary structure (chiasm, chiasmus) of each pericopes of Book of Judges

People whodon't study the bible and learn of the multiple layers of meanings are missing most of what it tries to teach. The various styles serve to make it a much shorter book by the devices used; if all the meanings were told separately and without such tools, the book would be unreadable and massive.

For some it is much too complicated as they just have not reached that level (maturity) in the spirit to search it all out, for others it is a matter of laziness, some just simply are not prepared or readied yet and some prefer darkness rather than light; then you have those that search yet they have not been given the spirit to understand any of it so they start guessing and make presumptions based on their earthy (carnal) minds; there are also those that humbly wait of the lord to lead them where they need to be and show them what their role is in the spirit (if any other than to survive this world into the next).

 

[JoeB131]

Joe you don't even know that Jesus said the rain falls on the just and the unjust. (Matthew 5:45). In fact you are like most anti-Christians, thinking you know much but actually knowing very little.

Epicurus said it better...

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

 

[shimon]

I am enjoying reading most of your takes and interpretations on the story of Jephthah this is how we would learn as well and each would argue his or her point of view or interpretation. A few points to keep in mind the Ammonites sacrificed their first born child in the fire to Moloch which was strictly forbidden in mosaic law . It is interesting that Jephthah would go to war with them and defeat them and then have to supposedly sacrifice his daughter. Jephthah regardless would have been beholden to this law of not sacrificing his child regardless of his vow... Secondly in order for a sacrifice to be “ kosher” his daughter did not fulfill any of the requirements... Since at this time the temple did not stand the sacrifice would have had to take place in Shiloh no one there would have allowed such a thing...The other thing to keep in mind is that his daughter was his only offspring and by supposedly sacrificing her he would then cut off his line forever which at this time amongst the Israelites was considered a terrible tragedy... Another thing to keep in mind in this not so simple story is the fact that his daughter was a virgin and remained this way thus cutting off his line as well...There are other points I could make such as his mother being a prostitute and he being considered a bastard and was removed from his community as well... The fight with the ephraimites also has some interesting connotations but the point I am trying to make is that some will see this story as a simple narrative and others will see it in other ways but this is how we will all learn and grow... The other point I would make is that the Hebrew Scriptures do not white wash these stories all the warts are left in there so that we don’t sanitize them and turn these people into saints in this way we realize they were human beings with all their frailties and shortcomings and that is the real lesson we should learn and try not to make the same errors they did as well.....

 

[JoeB131]

The other point I would make is that the Hebrew Scriptures do not white wash these stories all the warts are left in there so that we don’t sanitize them and turn these people into saints in this way we realize they were human beings with all their frailties and shortcomings and that is the real lesson we should learn and try not to make the same errors they did as well.....

I would agree, the overall tone of the Book of Judges is to show that under the Judges, (really, not Judges but a collection of warriors and heroes), the Hebrews became lawless and chaotic and accepted a lot of bad behavior. The purpose of the book was to show why Israel needed a King.

Yet in the New Testament Letter to the Hebrews, you have this passage.

And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets,

In short, Jephy is put up there with the Hall of Fame of Bible Greats, despite the fact he was a son of a Harlot who engaged in human sacrifice and slaughtered 42,000 of his own people for dissing him.

Again, the issues here is not to really discuss Jephy, it's to discuss God.

God knew what was going to happen when Jephy made his vow. He gave Jephy a victory over the Ammonites anyway, and he slaughtered a lot of them, including women and children. Then he allowed Jephy's daughter to come out of the house first before a goat or a chicken.

On that note, did anyone think that God was going to be impressed with a goat or a chicken for a sacrifice? "Wow, 30 Cities defeated, and you gave me a chicken!"

More to the point, Jephy and his daughter are absolutely TERRIFIED of what might happen if they don't go through with it. And they should be, given that this is a God who drowns babies and demands his followers slaughter each other over such petty crimes as having the wrong kind of sex and picking up sticks on the Sabbath.

To them, the Human Sacrifice was the LEAST BAD OPTION under the circumstances.

 

[SweetSue92]

Structure of Judges, for those who want to learn more about the book and what its overall themes are, and the role of chiasms in the particular case of the book of Judges, which is essentially geo-politics surrounding Gideon and the role of Israel's surrounding enemies.

Literary structure (chiasm, chiasmus) of Book of Judges: Whole structure

Literary structure (chiasm, chiasmus) of each pericopes of Book of Judges

People whodon't study the bible and learn of the multiple layers of meanings are missing most of what it tries to teach. The various styles serve to make it a much shorter book by the devices used; if all the meanings were told separately and without such tools, the book would be unreadable and massive.

No that is trying to make a puzzle of that which is not a puzzle. It is making meaning of what is aside from the meaning, and is unnecessary.

 

[SweetSue92]

Structure of Judges, for those who want to learn more about the book and what its overall themes are, and the role of chiasms in the particular case of the book of Judges, which is essentially geo-politics surrounding Gideon and the role of Israel's surrounding enemies.

Literary structure (chiasm, chiasmus) of Book of Judges: Whole structure

Literary structure (chiasm, chiasmus) of each pericopes of Book of Judges

People whodon't study the bible and learn of the multiple layers of meanings are missing most of what it tries to teach. The various styles serve to make it a much shorter book by the devices used; if all the meanings were told separately and without such tools, the book would be unreadable and massive.

For some it is much too complicated as they just have not reached that level (maturity) in the spirit to search it all out, for others it is a matter of laziness, some just simply are not prepared or readied yet and some prefer darkness rather than light; then you have those that search yet they have not been given the spirit to understand any of it so they start guessing and make presumptions based on their earthy (carnal) minds; there are also those that humbly wait of the lord to lead them where they need to be and show them what their role is in the spirit (if any other than to survive this world into the next).

When you read the Greek word pharmakeia as used in relation to sorcery in the Bible and, because it is used as "pharmacy" in English, try to connect that somehow to VACCINES in modern usage, you know you have gone too far. You know you have, see, so your default then is to say, well, these other poor sops don't have the right "spirit" or they're in "darkness" or whatever, which is a total cop out. Just say what you mean: you strongly dislike vaccines and don't think anyone should get them. Fair enough. But to make like the BIBLE says you shouldn't get them is disgusting, and I then do not trust a darn thing you have to say about the Bible. So there it is.

 

[hobelim]

More to the point, Jephy and his daughter are absolutely TERRIFIED of what might happen if they don't go through with it. And they should be, given that this is a God who drowns babies and demands his followers slaughter each other over such petty crimes as having the wrong kind of sex and picking up sticks on the Sabbath.

To them, the Human Sacrifice was the LEAST BAD OPTION under the circumstances.

If they had turned aside from the way Moses taught to follow the law, began to imitate the practices of the surrounding tribes, and made a vow to an image of God that reflects the beliefs of their enemies they were terrified about what a God that does not exist would do.

It says nothing about God.

There are many people who make vows of obedience to the Pope or a vow of celibacy, a financial commitment to church, or loyalty a two bit Jesus eating preacher, and then are terrified about what God would do if they broke their vows never thinking for a second that the image of the God they made a vow to doesn't exist.


Again, their fear does not have anything to do with any God.


Its about the paralyzing discomfit experienced and the stupid, obstinate, even evil things people do when they are trapped by their own words.

It is astonishing to see the lengths to which some people will go to to avoid the embarrassment of admitting a mistake in front of other people, even on a somewhat anonymous message board, even though they know without any doubt at all that God already knows how inept they really are.

Humans are a strange species.