DI abuse or Accepted Motivational Mehtods

[DiogenesDog]

My basic training cycle was the first in which a DI was not allowed to put hands on or inflict any corporal punishment in ways that brought the possibility of bodily injury, unwarrented exposure to bodily injury or destruction of personal property, all of which fit into a Dopp kit or other authorized container.

The subjects of this piece
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/09/09/news/sandiego/18_07_289_8_07.txt

seems to have opened a can of worms for the Corp and any other military branch. I guess everybody can't be Gunny Highway.

I AM

 

[Gunny]

I don't know about these specific cases; however, a Marine Drill Instructor that has not been allegated on by whiney recruits isn't showing up for work.

I had one allegate on me for making fat ass get in the back of the chow line.

Had a black recruit allegate on me claiming racism because I called him a stupid worthless piece of shit his parents shipped off so they no longer had to support him. Go figure.

Hats who physically abuse privates are out of control. Simple as that. I will say however, the job is HARD. 18 hour days, sometimes for months on end. The remaining 6 are used to shower, shave, take care of uniforms, boots and or gear. You basically run on 4 hours a night.

I'm not making excuses, but anyone that thinks sleep deprivation for 13 weeks at a shot won't affect your mind, judgement and/or ability to reason hasn't been reading up on the topic lately.

If it's still the way it was when I was a Hat, these Marines will be relieved as Drill Instructors for cause, will be court-martialed, busted to nothing and kicked out.

Meaning whatever time they have served to this point, will be for nothing. Anyone thinking they'll get off light needs to think again.

 

[DiogenesDog]

I don't know about these specific cases; however, a

If it's still the way it was when I was a Hat, these Marines will be relieved as Drill Instructors for cause, will be court-martialed, busted to nothing and kicked out.

.

I had a period of motivation by way of a hard stripe E-5 in an unsheathed bayonet drill. He got a little sloppy and I nicked his nose. He rubbed his blood on my face with a smile and said that I might make it. It was in the day when blood wasn't dirty. I shit my white boxers. Until the blood went on my face I thought Leavenworth was the only future I had. But, then there was AIT, escape and evasion and snake eater school while I waited for my clearance. There were about 15 of us mixed in with the AITs heading for Nam. One more slip and I believe that I would have been pegged. I never saw in all that first year any untoward corporal punishment at the hands of an NCO. There was however plenty of "Red Assing" among the AIT crowd for slack jobs. It was a bit of internal adjustment at squad and platoon level. I watched a lot of slack, pack and head for cook school. In 1964, there was still some discretion, two years later, the hard cases and the nascent fraggers were sent to Oakland for shipment by way of antique Victory Ships.

My old Marine, among others, is Gunny Ray. He was late 50s and early 60s. His stories are the documentation of an end of myth and of an era. He was at Cherry Pt., just back from Embassy duty in Beirut, when I was at Ft Jackson.

My good friend David Allan was a high school dropout. He went into the Marines in late 1962. He was a standout in basic and advanced training. He was discharged after a year with a progressive neurological disorder and died of ALS (Lou Gehrig's) at 35. His family had him buried in dress blues. He often told me that he had a tougher time being his father's son than becoming a Marine.

Thanks for stimulating my deeper memories.

I Am

I believe that the composite of all the Marines I know personally could make a Gunny Highway (Heartbreak Ridge - 86).

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The Sgt made a recruit jump into a trash can head first and then pushed him in further. He pegged a few recruits with a tent pole and something else, can't recall right now. None were hurt.

The Corps ordered one of the recruits to testify against him because he refused. After the verdict he said it was to harsh.

The Verdict was bad conduct discharge after reduction to private and 6 month in the brig. The Prosecution wanted , as I recall , at least 2 years.

Two other Sgts are waiting their Courts Martial.

 

[Gunny]

I had a period of motivation by way of a hard stripe E-5 in an unsheathed bayonet drill. He got a little sloppy and I nicked his nose. He rubbed his blood on my face with a smile and said that I might make it. It was in the day when blood wasn't dirty. I shit my white boxers. Until the blood went on my face I thought Leavenworth was the only future I had. But, then there was AIT, escape and evasion and snake eater school while I waited for my clearance. There were about 15 of us mixed in with the AITs heading for Nam. One more slip and I believe that I would have been pegged. I never saw in all that first year any untoward corporal punishment at the hands of an NCO. There was however plenty of "Red Assing" among the AIT crowd for slack jobs. It was a bit of internal adjustment at squad and platoon level. I watched a lot of slack, pack and head for cook school. In 1964, there was still some discretion, two years later, the hard cases and the nascent fraggers were sent to Oakland for shipment by way of antique Victory Ships.

My old Marine, among others, is Gunny Ray. He was late 50s and early 60s. His stories are the documentation of an end of myth and of an era. He was at Cherry Pt., just back from Embassy duty in Beirut, when I was at Ft Jackson.

My good friend David Allan was a high school dropout. He went into the Marines in late 1962. He was a standout in basic and advanced training. He was discharged after a year with a progressive neurological disorder and died of ALS (Lou Gehrig's) at 35. His family had him buried in dress blues. He often told me that he had a tougher time being his father's son than becoming a Marine.
Thanks for stimulating my deeper memories.

I Am

I believe that the composite of all the Marines I know personally could make a Gunny Highway (Heartbreak Ridge - 86).

The part about being my father's son was tougher is definitely true. I was a recruit my entire childhood and didn't realize it until i went to boot camp.

 

[82Marine89]

I still remember the squad bay obstacle course. Over and under every other rack. When we were sweaty enough we went down to the rose garden and made sand angels. We then stood at attention while the sand fleas were served lunch. What these drill instructors did is nothing compared to what they, the recruits, will see while in Iraq. I disagree with the punishment.

 

[Gunny]

I still remember the squad bay obstacle course. Over and under every other rack. When we were sweaty enough we went down to the rose garden and made sand angels. We then stood at attention while the sand fleas were served lunch. What these drill instructors did is nothing compared to what they, the recruits, will see while in Iraq. I disagree with the punishment.

Liked that, did you?

Punishment for the sake of punishment is pointless. Punishment for the sake of teaching works. Pain and fear are great motivators whether or not anyone wants to agree with that.

If you screw up and I put you in the pushup position halfway down and hold you there, you're FAR more likely to remember what I'm drilling into your grape than if I pull you aside with my arm on your shoulder and say, "Yo, prive ...."

However, I abused no one. That just makes privates hate you, and when they're too busy hating, they aren't learning.

It's REALLY hard sometimes tho. Privates are pretty-damned-dumb.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Liked that, did you?

Punishment for the sake of punishment is pointless. Punishment for the sake of teaching works. Pain and fear are great motivators whether or not anyone wants to agree with that.

If you screw up and I put you in the pushup position halfway down and hold you there, you're FAR more likely to remember what I'm drilling into your grape than if I pull you aside with my arm on your shoulder and say, "Yo, prive ...."

However, I abused no one. That just makes privates hate you, and when they're too busy hating, they aren't learning.

It's REALLY hard sometimes tho. Privates are pretty-damned-dumb.

Not necassarily dumb, just still in the pepsi generation.

 

[Gunny]

Not necassarily dumb, just still in the pepsi generation.

One can EASILY get into the "privates are dumb" mindset doing a tour as a hat. My comment was actually in jest though. Recruits are just civilians that need to be retrained to function as a military unit. They ren't any more or less dumber than the society that they come from.

I didn't get the pepsi generation tho. I got the early computer age generation where they thought everything could be fixed by hitting the reset button or "ctr-alt-del."

 

[82Marine89]

I was either to tired or to scared to screw up to worry about hating my Drill Instructors.

They were;

GySgt. Sterling Banks
SSgt. Murphy
Sgt. McRae
Sgt. Baskerville

Great men that made some great Marines.

 

[DiogenesDog]

By the time that I got to basic, I was thoroughly familiar with disassembly and reassembly of the M14. The first time I got ahead of the instructor in the process I was called out and given the opportunity to disassemble and reassemble the weapon in various positions on the raised instructors platform. It was supposed to be an object lesson for me but I was dismissed from the rest of the drill and assigned to assist in monitoring the process as it was done by others. At the end of the class, I had to go to the COs office and demonstrate my abilities to the OM, the first shirt and my platoon Sgt. My outcome there was to be warned, "Be very careful how far ahead of the curve you find yourself, FROM NOW ON." Me. "Sir, YES, Sir!" I did not ever again fail to comply or follow-on without a direct order from the instructor.

A favorite motivational exercise, usually reserved for Reserve and National Guard slackers, was a low crawl under the raised floor joists of the WWII era barracks. Over the years, some motivating NCO(s) had even seen fit to have the dirt in the crawl spaces raked, the joists "GIed) and the brick pier mortar lines painted. I was amazed when I did a recon under my barrack on "Tank Hill", Ft Jackson, SC.

Now you may think that I am just going on creative license here but know this, I remember being held by Harry Truman in October, 1948 when his campaign train was pulled up in the Strawberry Lane yards. I was three years 8 months old. I have a double image of that event. One is the personal sensory experience of being held, the smell of Sen-Sen and hair tonic and the flash bulbs going off all around me and two, the image from the paper that I still had until some move in the 80s.

Thanks for the blue smoke that was popped on my original comments.

I AM

 

[DiogenesDog]

The part about being my father's son was tougher is definitely true. I was a recruit my entire childhood and didn't realize it until i went to boot camp.

is the "got no daddy" generation that crosses all color lines. Between marriages, when I dated (reconed for intimate outcomes), I found that mothers with sons were far more desperate and troubled by their sons than those also reconning with intent who had daughters.

I have been a Scout Master, a surrogate grandparent to boys, and a trail captain for horseback treks with boys without fathers. It is the most debilitating psychic damage that any boy can experience; eg., the absent father.

Now that my daughter and her BF have cleared post, I am considering fostering children. I have therapeutic credentials and a "Sheriff Andy" approach with boys but it has never been my task to parent them. In my county and state there are thousands of horror stories re: fostering. The public schools are close. I have contacts with the best of the charter system and I have established contacts in the family support community. I may have had other plans but this one is now becoming a draw to me.

My dad had two favorite statements when addressing me. One was, "Boy, you ain't half smart." The other was, "Boy, you think you are about half smart." To which I responded with, "Yes sir." He never did get the power of the second response.

This is a strange generation of boys. They are unable to start a lawn mower. They are unable to be handy or responsible in many ways. Some of the worst have attempted or committed murder before they turned 16 (white, black or otherwise).

I have many thoughts coming up on this now.

I Am

 

[82Marine89]

RULES FOR DATING A MARINE'S DAUGHTER


1. If you pull into my driveway and honk you'd better be delivering a package, because you're sure not picking anything up.

2. Remove your hat when entering my humble abode. I may think you have something terrible under it and will do my best to exterminate it quickly, efficiently, and fatally.

3. You do not touch my daughter in front of me. You may glance at her, so long as you do not peer at anything below her neck. If you cannot keep your eyes or hands off of my daughter's body, I will remove them.

4. I am aware that it is considered fashionable for boys of your age to wear their trousers so loosely that they appear to be falling off their hips. Please don't take this as an insult, but you and all of your friends are complete idiots. Still, I want to be fair and open minded about this issue, so I propose this compromise: You may come to the door with your underwear showing and your pants ten sizes too big, and I will not object. However, In order to ensure that your clothes do not, in fact, come off during the course of your date with my daughter, I will take my electric nail gun and fasten your trousers securely in place to your waist.

5. I'm sure you've been told that in today's world, sex without utilizing a "barrier method" of some kind can kill you. Let me elaborate, when it comes to sex, I am the barrier, and I will kill you.

6. In order for us to get to know each other, we should talk about sports, politics, and other issues of the day. Please do not do this. The only information I require from you is an indication of when you expect to have my daughter safely back at my house, and the only word I need from you on this subject is "early."

7. I have no doubt you are a popular fellow, with many opportunities to date other girls. This is fine with me as long as it is okay with my daughter. Otherwise, once you have gone out with my little girl, you will continue to date no one but her until she is finished with you. If you make her cry, I will make you cry.

8. As you stand in my front hallway, waiting for my daughter to appear, and more than an hour goes by, do not sigh and fidget. If you want to be on time for the movie, you should not be dating. My daughter is putting on her makeup, a process that can take longer than painting the Golden Gate Bridge. Instead of just standing there, why don't you do something useful, like changing the oil in my car?

9. The following places are not appropriate for a date with my daughter:
* Places where there are beds, sofas, or anything softer than a wooden stool.
* Places where there are no parents, policemen, or nuns within eyesight.
* Places where there is darkness.
* Places where there is dancing, holding hands, or happiness.
* Places where the ambient temperature is warm enough to induce my daughter to wear shorts, tank tops, midriff T-shirts, or anything other than overalls, a sweater, and a goose down parka zipped up to her throat.
* Movies with a strong romantic or sexual theme are to be avoided; movies which features chain saws are okay.
* Hockey games are okay.
* Old folks homes are better.

10. Do not lie to me. I may appear to be a potbellied, balding, middle-aged, dimwitted has-been. But on issues relating to my daughter, I am the all-knowing, merciless god of your universe. If I ask you where you are going and with whom, you have one chance to tell me the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I have a shotgun, a shovel, and five acres behind the house. Do not trifle with me.

11. Be afraid. Be very afraid. It takes very little for me to mistake the sound of your car in the driveway for a chopper coming in over a rice paddy outside of Chu Lai. When my Agent Orange or Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) starts acting up, the voices in my head frequently tell me to clean the guns as I wait for you to bring my daughter home. As soon as you pull into the driveway you should exit your car with both hands in plain sight. Speak the perimeter password, announce in a clear voice that you have brought my daughter home safely and early, then return to your car. There is no need for you to come inside. The camouflaged face at the window is mine.

 

[Annie]

is the "got no daddy" generation that crosses all color lines. Between marriages, when I dated (reconed for intimate outcomes), I found that mothers with sons were far more desperate and troubled by their sons than those also reconning with intent who had daughters.

I have been a Scout Master, a surrogate grandparent to boys, and a trail captain for horseback treks with boys without fathers. It is the most debilitating psychic damage that any boy can experience; eg., the absent father.

Now that my daughter and her BF have cleared post, I am considering fostering children. I have therapeutic credentials and a "Sheriff Andy" approach with boys but it has never been my task to parent them. In my county and state there are thousands of horror stories re: fostering. The public schools are close. I have contacts with the best of the charter system and I have established contacts in the family support community. I may have had other plans but this one is now becoming a draw to me.

My dad had two favorite statements when addressing me. One was, "Boy, you ain't half smart." The other was, "Boy, you think you are about half smart." To which I responded with, "Yes sir." He never did get the power of the second response.

This is a strange generation of boys. They are unable to start a lawn mower. They are unable to be handy or responsible in many ways. Some of the worst have attempted or committed murder before they turned 16 (white, black or otherwise).

I have many thoughts coming up on this now.

I Am

I am extremely impressed. You are in Australia? As a single mom with a daughter and 2 sons, I gotta admit the boys were easier, except on the house. I was lucky though, I had a great dad who mentored the boys, with some help from my brother. They are all 'raised' now, sort of. As a teacher though, I think boys in general are getting a rotten deal, at least in the US.

You might want to grab a copy of this, after mentioning how 'boys don't know boy things-like lawnmowers':

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0061243582/bookstorenow99-20[/ame]

There's an interview with the author there, to give you an idea:

Questions for Conn Iggulden

Conn and Hal Iggulden are two brothers who have not forgotten what it was like to be boys. Conn taught for many years before becoming one of the most admired and popular young historical novelists with his Emperor series, based on the life of Julius Caesar, and his newly embarked series on Genghis Khan, while Hal is a theater director. We asked Conn about their collaboration.

Amazon.com: It's difficult to describe what a phenomenon The Dangerous Book for Boys was in the UK last year. When I would check the bestseller list on our sister site, Amazon.co.uk, there would be, along with your book, which spent much of the year at the top of the list, a half-dozen apparent knockoff books of similar boy knowledge. Clearly, you tapped into something big. What do you think it was?

Iggulden: In a word, fathers. I am one myself and I think we've become aware that the whole "health and safety" overprotective culture isn't doing our sons any favors. Boys need to learn about risk. They need to fall off things occasionally, or--and this is the important bit--they'll take worse risks on their own. If we do away with challenging playgrounds and cancel school trips for fear of being sued, we don't end up with safer boys--we end up with them walking on train tracks. In the long run, it's not safe at all to keep our boys in the house with a Playstation. It's not good for their health or their safety.

You only have to push a boy on a swing to see how much enjoys the thrill of danger. It's hard-wired. Remove any opportunity to test his courage and they'll find ways to test themselves that will be seriously dangerous for everyone around them. I think of it like playing the lottery--someone has to say "Look, you won't win--and your children won't be hurt. Relax. It won't be you."

I think that's the core of the book's success. It isn't just a collection of things to do. The heroic stories alone are something we haven't had for too long. It isn't about climbing Everest, but it is an attitude, a philosophy for fathers and sons. Our institutions are too wrapped up in terror over being sued--so we have to do things with them ourselves. This book isn't a bad place to start.

As for knockoff books--great. They'll give my son something to read that doesn't involve him learning a dull moral lesson of some kind--just enjoying an adventure or learning skills and crafts so that he has a feeling of competence and confidence--just as we have.

Amazon.com: You made some changes for the U.S. edition, and I for one am sorry that you have removed the section on conkers, if only because it's such a lovely and mysterious word. What are (or what is) conkers?

Iggulden: Horse chestnuts strung on a shoelace and knocked against one another until they shatter. In the entire history of the world, no one has ever been hurt by a conker, but it's still been banned by some British schools, just in case. Another school banned paper airplanes. Honestly, it's enough to make you weep, if I did that sort of thing, which I try not to. Reading Jane Austen is still allowed, however.

Amazon.com: What knowledge did you decide was important to add for American boys? I notice in both editions you have an excellent and useful section on table football, as played with coins. Is paper football strictly an American pastime? I'm not sure I could have gotten through the fourth grade without it.

Iggulden: I like knowing the details of battles, so Gettysburg and the Alamo had to go in, along with the Gettysburg address, stickball, state capitals, U.S. mountains, American trees, insects, U.S. historical timelines, and a lot of others. Navajo code talkers of WWII is a great chapter. It probably helps that I am a huge fan of America. It was only while rewriting for the U.S. that I realized how many positive references there already are. You have NASA and NASA trumps almost anything.

As for paper football, ever since I thought of putting the book together, people keep saying things like "You have rockets in there, yes? Everyone loves rockets!" Paper football is the first American one, but there will be many others. No book in the world is long enough to put them all in--unless we do a sequel, of course.

Amazon.com: Do you think The Dangerous Book for Boys is being read by actual boys, or only by nostalgic adults? Have you seen boys getting up from their Xboxes to go outside and perform first aid or tan animal skins or build go-carts?

Iggulden: I've had a lot of emails and letters from boys who loved the book--as well as fathers. I've had responses from kids as young as ten and an old man of 87, who pointed out a problem with the shadow stick that we've since changed. The thing to remember is that we may be older and more cynical every year, but boys simply aren't. If they are given the chance to make a go-cart with their dad, they jump at it. Mine did. Nothing gives me more pleasure than to know the book is being used with fathers and sons together, trying things out. Nothing is more valuable to a boy than time with his dad, learning something fun--or something difficult. That's part of the attitude too. If it's hard, you don't make it easy, you grab it by the throat and hang on for as long as it takes.

The book is often bought by fathers, of course. Their sons don't know Scott of the Antarctic is a great adventure story. How could they if it isn't taught any more? Good, heroic stories don't appear much in modern school curriculums--and then we wonder why boys don't seem interested.

Amazon.com: And finally, on to the important questions: Should Pluto still be a planet? And what was the best dinosaur?

Iggulden: Pluto is a planet. I know there are scientists who say it isn't, but it's big enough to be round and it has a moon, for crying out loud. Of course it's a planet. Give it ten years and they'll be agreeing with me again.

As for the best dinosaur, it depends what you mean by best. For sheer perfection, it probably has to be the shark and the crocodile. Modern ones are smaller but their record for sheer survival is pretty impressive. I only hope humanity can do as well. The only thing that will stop us is worrying too much.