Dems Without a Prayer!!

[Bonnie]

Bonnie, maybe I'm not 'hearing' you correctly. Are you saying you think that contaception is wrong? Like what is official Vatican teaching?

I do beleive artificial contraception is wrong as that's what the church teaches, however that doesn't mean I haven't practiced it in my life, Im just not waiting for the church to change it's position to suit my desires, I take responsibility for my sins. That said the church officially endorses family planning by natural means which is very easy to do, and you can use it to either get pregnant or prevent preganacy . As far as the church telling everyone they have to have tons of babies, that's just not the case, that's a fallacy.

 

[007]

Reilly you walk a fine line when you suggest it's okay to bring religion into politics but not the mechanics of government, the two are forever intertwined and any truely religious person will base their decisions on moral principals and ethics.

You've just pointed out pretty much the short of it right there Bonn. People vote conservative becaue they know they're voting for someone that is basing their decision, at least in part, on their religous moral beliefs. If they vote for a democrap, they're voting for someone who is, in all practicality, anti-religion, and believes in killing the unborn, making sodomy among men legitimate and not a perversion, and one that leads the charge against Christianity. After all, Christianity stands directly in the way of most everything they want or do. Why the hell would a democrap vote Republican?

 

[ReillyT]

You've just pointed out pretty much the short of it right there Bonn. People vote conservative becaue they know they're voting for someone that is basing their decision, at least in part, on their religous moral beliefs. If they vote for a democrap, they're voting for someone who is, in all practicality, anti-religion, and believes in killing the unborn, making sodomy among men legitimate and not a perversion, and one that leads the charge against Christianity. After all, Christianity stands directly in the way of most everything they want or do. Why the hell would a democrap vote Republican?

Conservatives vote Republican for a number of reasons, many of which have nothing to do with religion.

People vote Democrat for a number of reasons, many of which have nothing to do with religion.

Democrats are not anti-religion by and large. Most democrats believe that religion is an important and private matter. While politicians are free to vote on their religious and moral beliefs, democrats for the most part believe that persons should be free to practice their religion without government interference or influence. In short, the government should stay out of making religious messages.

As for abortion and legal protection for homosexuals, democrats either believe that these should be rights because they don't subscribe to a religious view that sees them as sins (not all religions or religious people do), or that even if they believe they are wrong, it is a religious belief that they do not require others to subscribe to.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Democrats are not anti-religion by and large. Most democrats believe that religion is an important and private matter. While politicians are free to vote on their religious and moral beliefs, democrats for the most part believe that persons should be free to practice their religion without government interference or influence. In short, the government should stay out of making religious messages.

As for abortion and legal protection for homosexuals, democrats either believe that these should be rights because they don't subscribe to a religious view that sees them as sins (not all religions or religious people do), or that even if they believe they are wrong, it is a religious belief that they do not require others to subscribe to.

The Democrats that you are speaking of are the traditional Democrats led by such men as Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman. That kind of Democrat never had a problem with religion and they never had a problem with the Ten Commandments in the courthouse nor saying a short prayer before a football game or having a Christmas party in grade school and so on and so forth. Most of these traditional Democrats also never favored homosexual marriage nor elective abortion either as these were concepts not to be found in their Christian religion that they believed in before their minds were brainwashed and they fell away from their religion and flocked toward the "if it feels good, do it" philosophy.

The Democrat Party of today is being led by the nose by the Far Left wing of the Party that is pushing Secularism/Socialism down the throat of the nation aided and abetted by various communist groups such as the ACLU. These Democrats do NOT respect religion in any form just as they do NOT respect your Constitutional right to free expression of your religion in the public square as has been enjoyed by both traditional Dems and Pubs for years and years without a problem.

 

[ReillyT]

The Democrats that you are speaking of are the traditional Democrats led by such men as Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman. That kind of Democrat never had a problem with religion and they never had a problem with the Ten Commandments in the courthouse nor saying a short prayer before a football game or having a Christmas party in grade school and so on and so forth. Most of these traditional Democrats also never favored homosexual marriage nor elective abortion either as these were concepts not to be found in their Christian religion that they believed in before their minds were brainwashed and they fell away from their religion and flocked toward the "if it feels good, do it" philosophy.

The Democrat Party of today is being led by the nose by the Far Left wing of the Party that is pushing Secularism/Socialism down the throat of the nation aided and abetted by various communist groups such as the ACLU. These Democrats do NOT respect religion in any form just as they do NOT respect your Constitutional right to free expression of your religion in the public square as has been enjoyed by both traditional Dems and Pubs for years and years without a problem.

Do you realize that you sound just as crazy as Democrats who talk about a Republican party of zealots that wants to establish a theocracy?

The Democrats that I was speaking of are not Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman. While I respect Joe Lieberman, Democrats for years have primarily looked to the lights of Daniel Patrick Moynihan and Ted Kennedy. (I have never considered Zell Miller a Democrat in anything but name only). I know that you hate Ted Kennedy, but many Democrats consider him an effective politician who espouses much of what we believe.

I am religious, I respect religion, I want everyone to be able to practice their religion, I think everyone should be allowed in the public square to proselytize their religious beliefs, and I am against posting the Ten Commandments at the courthouse steps. These things are not mutually exclusive, and this is where many religious democrats stand.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Do you realize that you sound just as crazy as Democrats who talk about a Republican party of zealots that wants to establish a theocracy?

The Democrats that I was speaking of are not Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman. While I respect Joe Lieberman, Democrats for years have primarily looked to the lights of Daniel Patrick Moynihan and Ted Kennedy. (I have never considered Zell Miller a Democrat in anything but name only). I know that you hate Ted Kennedy, but many Democrats consider him an effective politician who espouses much of what we believe.

I am religious, I respect religion, I want everyone to be able to practice their religion, I think everyone should be allowed in the public square to proselytize their religious beliefs, and I am against posting the Ten Commandments at the courthouse steps. These things are not mutually exclusive, and this is where many religious democrats stand.

Read where I bolded your words. Leaders of the Far Left. I rest my case.

 

[ReillyT]

Read where I bolded your words. Leaders of the Far Left. I rest my case.

We obviously disagree about the achievements of these politicians. That is what separates us politically. It does not mean that I am a communist, anti-religious nut. It doesn't mean that you are a mean-spirited, religious zealot. That was my point.

 

[Bonnie]

REillyT ...I know that you hate Ted Kennedy, but many Democrats consider him an effective politician who espouses much of what we believe.

Patrick Moynihan maybe on some things, however Ted Kennedy is as liberal-socialistic as they come, and really does associate himself with the far fringe of the Left. If your assertion that many democrats espouse his philosophies then you are only serving to prove the conservative point that many democrats are indeed out of touch with mainstream America.

I would like very much to know who YOU think actually is on the far left, if you view Kennedy as a moderate??

 

[ReillyT]

Patrick Moynihan maybe on some things, however Ted Kennedy is as liberal-socialistic as they come, and really does associate himself with the far fringe of the Left. If your assertion that many democrats espouse his philosophies then you are only serving to prove the conservative point that many democrats are indeed out of touch with mainstream America.

I would like very much to know who YOU think actually is on the far left, if you view Kennedy as a moderate??

Liberals (including myself) feel that Kennedy has been instrumental in advancing and supporting many important pieces of social legislation, including:
Children's Health Insurance Program 1997
Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996
Voting Rights Act Extension
Low-Income Energy Assistance Programs (Fuel Assistance)
Family and Medical Leave Act
1996 Temporary Assistance to Needy Families Act (welfare reform act)
Civil Rights Act of 1964

Although he didn't author many of these bills, he was important in pushing the Senate to enact them.

I don't think there are many far-left members of the Congress anymore. They have pretty much gone by the wayside. I can't think of any (off the top of my head) far-left members of the Senate. The House probably has a few, but I don't know them by name. Sorry.

 

[ReillyT]

I am just not that up-to-date on the bills advocated by individual members of Congress to pick out a few as the most liberal.

 

[ReillyT]

If your assertion that many democrats espouse his philosophies then you are only serving to prove the conservative point that many democrats are indeed out of touch with mainstream America.

What is main-stream America? Kerry was touted as being the most liberal member of the Senate in the lead-up to the election, but he only lost the election by a relatively few number of votes in Ohio. He garnered something like 47% of the popular vote. If he is the most liberal in the Senate, then are Democrats really that out of touch with the mainstream? Maybe they are just out of touch with certain parts of the country. Maybe they are just lousy at politics.

I also don't like the terms "grassroots America" or "Middle America." The way those phrases are thrown around, you would think that Kansas and Missouri should be more important than New York and New Jersey. When I try to think of one city that I consider emblematic of what America is, I always think of New York. It is a large city, with a very diverse racial and socio-economic population, in which the residents are generally accepting and get along tolerably well. It also draws people from the rest of the country and the world who want to be a part of it. That is what I think America is and should be.

 

[Avatar4321]

What is main-stream America? Kerry was touted as being the most liberal member of the Senate in the lead-up to the election, but he only lost the election by a relatively few number of votes in Ohio. He garnered something like 47% of the popular vote. If he is the most liberal in the Senate, then are Democrats really that out of touch with the mainstream? Maybe they are just out of touch with certain parts of the country. Maybe they are just lousy at politics.

I think the question for that is how many were voting for Kerry and not against Bush.

Second, I think maybe John Edwards was right about there being two Americans. There are two americas. A conservative America and a liberal America. This isnt based on some communist rich v poor struggle like Edwards tried to claim. This is based mostly on values and love of freedom. Those who love values and freedom on one side. And those who think we are two stupid to govern ourselves and should follow the world by tossing our freedom to the UN on the other.

 

[ReillyT]

I think the question for that is how many were voting for Kerry and not against Bush.

Second, I think maybe John Edwards was right about there being two Americans. There are two americas. A conservative America and a liberal America. This isnt based on some communist rich v poor struggle like Edwards tried to claim. This is based mostly on values and love of freedom. Those who love values and freedom on one side. And those who think we are two stupid to govern ourselves and should follow the world by tossing our freedom to the UN on the other.

The same question applies the other way. How many were voting for Bush and not against Kerry? This sort of speculation doesn't get anyone anywhere.

You epitomize in this post the problem that I feel confronts both Democrats and Republicans. You feel that the "other America" has no values and has no love of freedom and just think you "are two stupid to govern ourselves and should follow the world by tossing our freedom to the UN." Some Democrats feel that Republicans want to throw away our freedoms and are pushing for a Christian theocracy based upon their values. Both sides are wrong. Nobody has a monopoly on patriotism or a love of freedom.

Democrats and Republicans in the U.S. both apprciate our freedoms and have different ideas about how and from whom they should be protected. Both have values, most of which are the same. If you (and some on the other side) would stop thinking the absolute worst of those that disagree with you, and if you would listen to their concerns and try to understand them, you would have a better understanding of why they feel the way the feel and who they are.

 

[ReillyT]

Good God. I sound like Dr. Phil.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Do you realize that you sound just as crazy as Democrats who talk about a Republican party of zealots that wants to establish a theocracy?

The Democrats that I was speaking of are not Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman. While I respect Joe Lieberman, Democrats for years have primarily looked to the lights of Daniel Patrick Moynihan and Ted Kennedy. (I have never considered Zell Miller a Democrat in anything but name only). I know that you hate Ted Kennedy, but many Democrats consider him an effective politician who espouses much of what we believe.

I am religious, I respect religion, I want everyone to be able to practice their religion, I think everyone should be allowed in the public square to proselytize their religious beliefs, and I am against posting the Ten Commandments at the courthouse steps. These things are not mutually exclusive, and this is where many religious democrats stand.

Look at your party, reillyt. The ugly secret is that it's a party in crisis. The Leadership of the party knows that the liberal ideas they've carefully enculturated into the american left are completely untenable and unworkable in the real world. thus the rheotic they feed to their sheeple during the primaries varies more and more greatly with actually implementable policy. Thus the great party schism apparent over at democraticunderground.com. Their goos is cooked. It's over, commies.

 

[Bonnie]

What is main-stream America? Kerry was touted as being the most liberal member of the Senate in the lead-up to the election, but he only lost the election by a relatively few number of votes in Ohio. He garnered something like 47% of the popular vote. If he is the most liberal in the Senate, then are Democrats really that out of touch with the mainstream? Maybe they are just out of touch with certain parts of the country. Maybe they are just lousy at politics.

I also don't like the terms "grassroots America" or "Middle America." The way those phrases are thrown around, you would think that Kansas and Missouri should be more important than New York and New Jersey. When I try to think of one city that I consider emblematic of what America is, I always think of New York. It is a large city, with a very diverse racial and socio-economic population, in which the residents are generally accepting and get along tolerably well. It also draws people from the rest of the country and the world who want to be a part of it. That is what I think America is and should be.

I would say mainstream America are the many who are tired of hearing how stupid, religious fanatical, moralistic, and backward they are for not wanting government telling them they must just sit down and shut up and keep their morality, ideas, and concerns to themsleves, while they watch their parental authority taken away by the government, their freedom of religious expression being taken away by the ACLU who CLAIMS they wish to "protect individual freedoms", have their hard earned money taxed away by Libs in Government such as Ted Kennedy and other elitist liberals who have never had to worry about money or taxes a day in their lives, then proceed to call those who oppose socialistic taxation (redistribution of money form those who do work to those who live off everyone else) selfish and greedy, mainstream America are those who can't stand to be preached to by immoral celebrities who can't keep their own families together, but tell everyone else the real meaning or morality is abortion on demand, endlessly taxing those who earn money, using tax dollars to fund art that many would find offensive, that Fidel Castro is a hero, the UN is great even though everyone now knows they are corrupt and useless, that kids should be sexually promiscious, that homosexuals should have extra rights and priviledges, that it's perfectly okay to go overseas and denounce America on foreign soil, and yes it's perfectly okay for Ted Kennedy to stand before the Senate and call make a ridiculous and irresponsible comparison between Hitler and President Bush. Shall I go on?

 

[ReillyT]

I would say mainstream America are the many who are tired of hearing how stupid, religious fanatical, moralistic, and backward they are for not wanting government telling them they must just sit down and shut up and keep their morality, ideas, and concerns to themsleves, while they watch their parental authority taken away by the government, their freedom of religious expression being taken away by the ACLU who CLAIMS they wish to "protect individual freedoms", have their hard earned money taxed away by Libs in Government such as Ted Kennedy and other elitist liberals who have never had to worry about money or taxes a day in their lives, then proceed to call those who oppose socialistic taxation (redistribution of money form those who do work to those who live off everyone else) selfish and greedy, mainstream America are those who can't stand to be preached to by immoral celebrities who can't keep their own families together, but tell everyone else the real meaning or morality is abortion on demand, endlessly taxing those who earn money, using tax dollars to fund art that many would find offensive, that Fidel Castro is a hero, the UN is great even though everyone now knows they are corrupt and useless, that kids should be sexually promiscious, that homosexuals should have extra rights and priviledges, that it's perfectly okay to go overseas and denounce America on foreign soil, and yes it's perfectly okay for Ted Kennedy to stand before the Senate and call make a ridiculous and irresponsible comparison between Hitler and President Bush. Shall I go on?

I never had any aspirations about getting ManChild to open up his mind at all, and it appears that I have failed to convince you that there is little purpose served by demogoguery. Oh well. I have to go so I hope everyone has a good day.

For the record (and I don't have the time to answer your tirade comprehensively), I don't think Castro is a hero; I don't think kids should have sex; and I don't think homosexuals should have "extra" rights. I do think that, generally, Americans should have the right to denounce their government (as long as they do not pose a "clear and present danger"), although I think they should be allowed to do that here as opposed to overseas, per the First Amendment.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I never had any aspirations about getting ManChild to open up his mind at all, and it appears that I have failed to convince you that there is little purpose served by demogoguery. Oh well. I have to go so I hope everyone has a good day.

For the record (and I don't have the time to answer your tirade comprehensively), I don't think Castro is a hero; I don't think kids should have sex; and I don't think homosexuals should have "extra" rights. I do think that, generally, Americans should have the right to denounce their government (as long as they do not pose a "clear and present danger"), although I think they should be allowed to do that here as opposed to overseas, per the First Amendment.

Condescension doesn't become you, Reillytbag.

 

[Bonnie]

I never had any aspirations about getting ManChild to open up his mind at all, and it appears that I have failed to convince you that there is little purpose served by demogoguery. Oh well. I have to go so I hope everyone has a good day.

For the record (and I don't have the time to answer your tirade comprehensively), I don't think Castro is a hero; I don't think kids should have sex; and I don't think homosexuals should have "extra" rights. I do think that, generally, Americans should have the right to denounce their government (as long as they do not pose a "clear and present danger"), although I think they should be allowed to do that here as opposed to overseas, per the First Amendment.

I never said you did think Castro was a hero, and I don't presume to know much about you other than what you have posted here. My tirade or demogoguery as you call it, honest truth as I call it was not necessarily directed at you but was merely an answer to your query as to what "mainstream America really is as I know it from many I have talked to about it. Sure those opposed to government should have the right to do so, however those that don't agree with them also have the right to say so.

Im sure there are people like yourself who don't sit in lock step with the left fringe, but I think we can both agree there really is a palpable truth to what I've stated or so many wouldn't feel this way.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

I never had any aspirations about getting ManChild to open up his mind at all, and it appears that I have failed to convince you that there is little purpose served by demogoguery. Oh well. I have to go so I hope everyone has a good day.

For the record (and I don't have the time to answer your tirade comprehensively), I don't think Castro is a hero; I don't think kids should have sex; and I don't think homosexuals should have "extra" rights. I do think that, generally, Americans should have the right to denounce their government (as long as they do not pose a "clear and present danger"), although I think they should be allowed to do that here as opposed to overseas, per the First Amendment.

Wow, Bonnie just gave you a huge laundry list of what the Democratic Left is trying to foist upon us everyday Americans and you basically waltz off obviously still thinking the Democrats are "middle America" or whatever and the best party to belong to because 1) you don't agree with everything the Dems push 2) you think you should have the right to denouce the government. Man, that's lame.

My guess is that if you ever really thought about each issue, one by one, you would probably become a Republican supporter by and large because you seem like a decent sort but it'll probably never happen because you, like most liberals I've encountered 1) don't want to analyze anything - they'd rather just huff-n-puff-n-walk away 2) have too much pride to admit they might just be wrong. 3) they are still living in JFK yesteryear.

By the way, us on the Rep side do not always agree with everything the right does either. Also we think everyone has the right to denounce the government as we believe in the freedom of speech ("Baghdad Jim" was never arrested) ...the same freedom many of the lefty PCers seem to have forgotten. :bat:

ps: sorry Bonnie, couldn't rep you - again!