Dems stood by during shivo case

[manu1959]

"Dean said Republicans should not have interfered in the Terri Schiavo right-to-life case."

never lifted a finger huh?

 

[Bullypulpit]

"Dean said Republicans should not have interfered in the Terri Schiavo right-to-life case."

never lifted a finger huh?

And, he was correct. The autopsy bore out what her physicians and husband had said all along...She was in a persistent vegetative state as a result of massive and irreversible brain damage. It was found that she was also blind. - <a href=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8225637/>MSNBC</a>

 

[no1tovote4]

A sad case indeed. Her family wanted her to live regardless of that fact for their own religious reasons. I would not want to live under such circumstance and I am glad that my wife would be able to make those decisions for me at that time. Personally I think that personal and state rights were upheld in the end, but they were under seige. I cannot imagine if somebody had sued to keep my father's body alive after I had made the decision to shut off the machines. Dad wasn't there, he wouldn't want to be a burden financially or emotionally.

 

[Hobbit]

The point of the whole story was that a) Michael Shiavo seemed to want her to stay alive until he met a euthenasia activist lawyer and b) Michael Shiavo wouldn't let anybody but the physician he hired examine her.

If Michael Shiavo had let Terri's parents' doctor give a second opinion, on their dollar, and it came up that she was beyond help, I don't think it would've been as much of an issue. I also think it would have been better to actually go ahead with something less painful (in case he was, I dunno, WRONG about the state of the least understood organ of the body) than frickin' starvation. The Nazis used that for people who live incineration was too good for. I still think he's hinding something.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

The point of the whole story was that a) Michael Shiavo seemed to want her to stay alive until he met a euthenasia activist lawyer and b) Michael Shiavo wouldn't let anybody but the physician he hired examine her.

If Michael Shiavo had let Terri's parents' doctor give a second opinion, on their dollar, and it came up that she was beyond help, I don't think it would've been as much of an issue. I also think it would have been better to actually go ahead with something less painful (in case he was, I dunno, WRONG about the state of the least understood organ of the body) than frickin' starvation. The Nazis used that for people who live incineration was too good for. I still think he's hinding something.

She...couldn't....feel....pain......?

 

[Bullypulpit]

The point of the whole story was that a) Michael Shiavo seemed to want her to stay alive until he met a euthenasia activist lawyer and b) Michael Shiavo wouldn't let anybody but the physician he hired examine her.

If Michael Shiavo had let Terri's parents' doctor give a second opinion, on their dollar, and it came up that she was beyond help, I don't think it would've been as much of an issue. I also think it would have been better to actually go ahead with something less painful (in case he was, I dunno, WRONG about the state of the least understood organ of the body) than frickin' starvation. The Nazis used that for people who live incineration was too good for. I still think he's hinding something.

<a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hammesfahr#Terri_Schiavo>Dr. Willaim Hammesfahr</a>,The doctor Terri's parents had retained, had been reprimanded, several times, by Florida's state medical board for ethics complaints, and he is listed on <a href=http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/>qwackwatch.org</a> as "a promoter of questionable methods".

So, Terri was examined by outside physicians including Dr. William Cheshire, who examined her at the request of Florida's APS, who concluded she was not suffering from PVS. His conclusion, however was considered suspect by many. And, as we all know, his conclusions as to Terri's condition were shown to be utterly wrong by the autopsy. It should also be noted that Senator Bill "Video Diagnosis" Frist was also shown to be wrong.

And finally, Terri DID NOT "starve to death". Her body simply shut down once the feeding tube was finally, and mercifully, removed. She felt no pain...she did not suffer...she passed peacefully. The only pain and suffering was the result of unwarranted legislative interference on the part of both Florida's legislature and Congress.

And BTW, your Nazi reference is simply so much bullshit.

 

[Mr. P]

The point of the whole story was that a) Michael Shiavo seemed to want her to stay alive until he met a euthenasia activist lawyer...

What the hell is a "euthenasia lawyer"?

 

[Gunny]

And, he was correct. The autopsy bore out what her physicians and husband had said all along...She was in a persistent vegetative state as a result of massive and irreversible brain damage. It was found that she was also blind. - <a href=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8225637/>MSNBC</a>

Yeah, and all those old folks in NO were incapable of getting themselves out so f*ck 'em.

Just depends on where you want to draw the line on who is and is not allowed to live.

 

[Gunny]

What the hell is a "euthenasia lawyer"?

accessory to suicide?

 

[Mr. P]

accessory to suicide?

No, don't think so. Then again maybe the board is creating a new specialty in the Legal field.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Yeah, and all those old folks in NO were incapable of getting themselves out so f*ck 'em.

Just depends on where you want to draw the line on who is and is not allowed to live.

It's not about "allowing" anyone to live. It's about honoring the wishes of your loved ones. It's not a place for the state to get involved. When my dad had his third MI which left him with severe anoxic brain damage, we honored his wishes and pulled the plug. Had he lived, he would have been in the same position as Terri Schiavo...an empty shell. I loved my dad enought to let go...Tarri's parents could have done the same, but they chose not to, for whatever reason...But such desires are usually guilt based. Terri's father pulled the plug on his mother, so perhaps that unresolved issue had something to do with it.

As for the folks in NO, they were abandoned by those they trusted with their lives. The evidence is that they tried to keep the flood waters out. The nursing home operators have been charged with negligent homicide. They were derelict in their duty. And if you were, or are, a Marine Gunny, then you know about duty.

 

[Hobbit]

By euthenasia activist lawyer, I mean a person who is a euthenasia activist, fighting for a person's "right to die" who is also a lawyer and uses that profession to attempt to fight for his cause.

As far as the pain of starvation, until after the autopsy, there was acutally doubt in the minds of many qualified people about her condition. Since the conclusions and not the records were released, nobody was sure, and while she was starving to death, the moaned, a clear indication of pain. After the autopsy results were publicly released, it was concluded that this was probably just a reflexive reaction. However, our understanding of the brain is so limited, one can't be sure, and if you're not 100% sure, isn't it worth the extra effort to at least be 100% sure that the procedure was pain-free?

 

[Bullypulpit]

By euthenasia activist lawyer, I mean a person who is a euthenasia activist, fighting for a person's "right to die" who is also a lawyer and uses that profession to attempt to fight for his cause.

As far as the pain of starvation, until after the autopsy, there was acutally doubt in the minds of many qualified people about her condition. Since the conclusions and not the records were released, nobody was sure, and while she was starving to death, the moaned, a clear indication of pain. After the autopsy results were publicly released, it was concluded that this was probably just a reflexive reaction. However, our understanding of the brain is so limited, one can't be sure, and if you're not 100% sure, isn't it worth the extra effort to at least be 100% sure that the procedure was pain-free?

Her primary care physicians, who'd been with since the begining of the whole ordeal, didn't have any doubt. Every one else was, basically a diletante trying to get their 15 minutes of fame.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

By euthenasia activist lawyer, I mean a person who is a euthenasia activist, fighting for a person's "right to die" who is also a lawyer and uses that profession to attempt to fight for his cause.

As far as the pain of starvation, until after the autopsy, there was acutally doubt in the minds of many qualified people about her condition. Since the conclusions and not the records were released, nobody was sure, and while she was starving to death, the moaned, a clear indication of pain. After the autopsy results were publicly released, it was concluded that this was probably just a reflexive reaction. However, our understanding of the brain is so limited, one can't be sure, and if you're not 100% sure, isn't it worth the extra effort to at least be 100% sure that the procedure was pain-free?

You can't be 100% sure of anything. You certainly can't be more than 100% sure, so I don't know what you mean by "at least 100% sure." Nit-picking, sorry. If we took the extra effort to be 100% sure about everything, well... we wouldn't ever get anything done.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

By euthenasia activist lawyer, I mean a person who is a euthenasia activist, fighting for a person's "right to die" who is also a lawyer and uses that profession to attempt to fight for his cause.

As far as the pain of starvation, until after the autopsy, there was acutally doubt in the minds of many qualified people about her condition. Since the conclusions and not the records were released, nobody was sure, and while she was starving to death, the moaned, a clear indication of pain. After the autopsy results were publicly released, it was concluded that this was probably just a reflexive reaction. However, our understanding of the brain is so limited, one can't be sure, and if you're not 100% sure, isn't it worth the extra effort to at least be 100% sure that the procedure was pain-free?

And moaning is a clear indication of pain from someone without mental problems, not a woman who had been the mental equivalent of a carrot for 13 years.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

<a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hammesfahr#Terri_Schiavo>Dr. Willaim Hammesfahr</a>,The doctor Terri's parents had retained, had been reprimanded, several times, by Florida's state medical board for ethics complaints, and he is listed on <a href=http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/>qwackwatch.org</a> as "a promoter of questionable methods".

So, Terri was examined by outside physicians including Dr. William Cheshire, who examined her at the request of Florida's APS, who concluded she was not suffering from PVS. His conclusion, however was considered suspect by many. And, as we all know, his conclusions as to Terri's condition were shown to be utterly wrong by the autopsy. It should also be noted that Senator Bill "Video Diagnosis" Frist was also shown to be wrong.

And finally, Terri DID NOT "starve to death". Her body simply shut down once the feeding tube was finally, and mercifully, removed. She felt no pain...she did not suffer...she passed peacefully. The only pain and suffering was the result of unwarranted legislative interference on the part of both Florida's legislature and Congress.

And BTW, your Nazi reference is simply so much bullshit.

Dying of thirst is a great way to die. Is providing water and food a medical procedure?

 

[Bullypulpit]

Dying of thirst is a great way to die. Is providing water and food a medical procedure?

If it is provided via an NG, OG or PEG tube, it is a medical proceedure.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

If it is provided via an NG, OG or PEG tube, it is a medical proceedure.

Bullshit.

If a nurse ties my shoe, is that a medical procedure?

 

[The ClayTaurus]

Bullshit.

If a nurse ties my shoe, is that a medical procedure?

Is an IV a medical procedure?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Is an IV a medical procedure?

Yes. But she was capable of consuming liquids orally. Ice chips were denied to her, SO SHE WOULD DIE. You'd die too if doctors ordered you starved to death.