Democrats suggest driving off the cliff

[lukelk]

right wingers are slow

 

[konradv]

what kind of dope is Beck?

The biggest kind.

 

[freedombecki]

For those unfamiliar with the term "Fiscal Cliff," money.CNN has given an explanation here: What's In the Fiscal Cliff?

They're saying:

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- The fiscal cliff is a man-made disaster waiting to happen.It starts to take effect in January and includes $7 trillion worth of tax increases and spending cuts over a decade. While that might seem like a deficit hawk's dream come true, it's anything but. "It's too big, too quick, and focuses on the wrong parts of the budget," said Maya MacGuineas, who is spearheading the nonpartisan Campaign to Fix the Debt.



Among the policies at issue: reductions in both defense and non-defense spending; the expiration of the Bush tax cuts; the end of a payroll tax holiday and extended unemployment benefits; and the onset of reimbursement cuts to Medicare doctors. In addition, the debt ceiling -- the legal limit on federal borrowing -- will need to be raised by early next year from its current level of $16.394 trillion. If left in place, the fiscal cliff would lead to the biggest single-year drop in the annual deficit as a percent of the economy since 1969. Because it would be so abrupt and arbitrary, it also could throw the United States back into a recession next year, when more than $500 billion will be taken out of the economy.

Here are some issues of concern:

• $55 billion cut from military discretionary defense spending.
• $55 billion cut from domestic spending in education, food inspections and air travel safety.
• When tax cuts end Dec. 31, income tax will rise to 15%, 28%, 31%, 36% and 39.6%, up from 10%, 15%, 25%, 28%, 33% and 35%.
• Capital gains rates rise to 20% from 15% for most filers
• Qualified dividend rises to one's top income tax rate, up from 15% for most filers.
• RPEP/Pease limitations Restored. High-income households may not be able to take some itemized deductions and personal exemptions in full.
• Child tax credit falls to $500 per child from $1,000. The refundable portion is also reduced.
• American Opportunity Tax Credit expires. The lesser value tax credit for college tuition is reinstated. Several smaller education tax benefits expire as well.
• Earned Income Tax Credit's expansion of eligibility expires.
  
  
• Marriage penalty relief expires causing low and middle income couples owing more to the IRS than if they were single at same income.
• Estate tax reverts to its pre-2--1 levels. Exemption level falls to $1,000,000 from $5,000,000, and top rate on taxable estates rises to 55% from 35%.
• Alternative Minimum Tax patch:
  Expired already for 2012. Income exempt from the Alternative Minimum Tax in 2012 -- for which taxpayers will file returns next year -- falls to $33,750 for individuals and $45,000 for married couples. That's down from $50,600 and $78,750, respectively, if the exemption amounts had been adjusted for inflation. As a consequence, more than 30 million people will be hit by the so-called "wealth" tax, up from 4 million to date.

More is at the link: What's in the Fiscal Cliff. It's interesting.

 

[skye]

Dunno... hope not ... but all the freebies that come from this Administration have to be paid .... they did voted for a nanny President after all!

 

[occupied]

what kind of dope is Beck?

The biggest kind.

The kind that makes you lose all touch with reality, some of these people make being a smartass much too easy.

 

[kiwiman127]

So let the political games begin. Party over country. Get the American public really scare and fuck with them.
We see it from both parties and I'm really sick of the bullshit.
If the US does go over the fiscal cliff, people lose jobs, businesses fail, we go into another recession and the politicians in Washington fiddle.
I'm telling you folks, it's time to get a serious centralist third party going that is focused on issues/stances that put all of America first.

 

[oldfart]

Two weeksago I would have said no. But the post-election bitching and whining of the conservatives convinces me that they will somehow find an incredibly stupid way to blow it and we will have sequestration and reversion of the tax code to thaqt of 2000.

 

[william the wie]

Going over the cliff is a great idea for the cutting the budget before we become the next Greece.

 

[Sallow]

Cliff baby!

Go go go.

 

[KissMy]

I would prefer they use a planned strategy of raising taxes slowly; however, if Republicans stick to their guns of no tax increases at all, then so be it; we'll take the jump. I imagine there is a good chance the Bush tax cuts expire, and then there are new negotiations on future tax cuts that can be made retroactive. Basically, the wealthy will see there taxes go up one way or another.

That will be bad for the economy. Adam Smith & many other economist warn against shocks to the tax, interest rates or financial system. Predictable tax rates not necessarily low tax rates is what prevents economic shocks that increase unemployment rates & destroy the wealth of nations. The shock in 2008 exploded the unemployment rate. Going past the deadline only to reverse a predicted tax change retroactively is just unnecessarily throwing jobs out the window. These idiots had better do something smart soon or just let the cliff pass & move on. Whipsawing the economy is retarded just like failing to raise the debt ceiling in time earned US a credit downgrade. We will get another downgrade for being stupid.

 

[American_Jihad]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4z88U915uq8]Thelma & Louise:Ending Scene - YouTube[/ame]

 

[freedombecki]

right wingers are slow

As in slow hand... Well, we do have very, very sexy men.

 

[Truthmatters]

Rivals dig in as "fiscal cliff" drama debuts

Source: Rivals dig in as 'fiscal cliff' drama debuts

WASHINGTON - Both sides in the "fiscal cliff" debate stood their ground on Tuesday as they gathered in Washington for the first time since the elections, with a fundamental tax dispute preventing a broader compromise on deficit reduction. The White House made clear it was ready to negotiate with Republicans on taxes and spending, but a spokesman for Democratic President Barack Obama said he will not budge on insisting that the wealthy's tax rates must rise in 2013.

The president wants to extend low individual income tax rates beyond year's end for 98 percent of Americans, but he will not agree to extending them for the top 2 percent of earners, said White House spokesman Jay Carney at a news conference. On the Senate floor, Republican Leader Mitch McConnell said his party was open to discussing new government revenues, but not raising tax rates. "We're ... not about to further weaken the economy by raising tax rates and hurting jobs," he said. The defiant remarks came as Congress returned from a post-election break with seven weeks left to deal with the "fiscal cliff," a convergence of urgent tax and spending issues that, if mishandled, could plunge the economy into another recession according to the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office.

What say you?

which party got the country downgraded by the finacial sector so they could stomp their feet and throw a tantrum?


which party have the American people already desided they will blame if we do go off this cliff?


both have one answer.

the republican party

 

[Katzndogz]

We have reached a point in the nation where compromise is no longer possible. Republicans were not sent to Congress to agree. They were sent to obstruct.

 

[Rshermr]

In order to attempt to force the hand of the GOP, the democrat party would risk scuttling the economy and sending us into deep recession by suggesting the government deliberately drive the economy off the fiscal cliff.
These are such good Americans. They risk the very well being of the people they claim to want to help for political gain.
Some Dems see gains in driving off ‘fiscal cliff’ | | The Bulletin

We have a choice either let sequestration take place on January 1st 2013--resulting in the expiration of the Bush tax cuts--and massive budget cuts--or you can choose the austerity measures put in place by Greece.

Yes--it's going to be painful to everyone--but it needs to be done.

Maybe you should do a little research before you post. Austerity programs have been going on in a number of european countries for about 3 years. Most agree that austerity is making things worse. Much worse. That includes economists worldwide. But it is not universal. Conservatives love austerity. But you only get a good idea of what austerity is accomplishing if you do some research.
So, for now, the choice is allow the bush tax cuts to expire, or go along with letting only the bush tax cuts for the wealthy expire. That and a few other changes, would make austerity a non issue.
As for what the repubs will do, there is a lot of reason to believe that they will go along with the dem plan for the bush tax cuts, and only allow those on over $250k earners to expire.

 

[oldfart]

I would prefer they use a planned strategy of raising taxes slowly; however, if Republicans stick to their guns of no tax increases at all, then so be it; we'll take the jump. I imagine there is a good chance the Bush tax cuts expire, and then there are new negotiations on future tax cuts that can be made retroactive. Basically, the wealthy will see there taxes go up one way or another.

That will be bad for the economy. Adam Smith & many other economist warn against shocks to the tax, interest rates or financial system.

I think you may be getting carried away here. Adam Smith's most referenced work, "Wealth of Nations" was published in 1776. I've read a good portion of it including his "Three Canons of Taxation". He had no grasp of what we now call economic shocks, no theory of interest rates of note, nor any comments on a financial system that had not emerged yet. I'd suggest turning to more modern economists of any ilk for views on contemporary policy; it's a different world from Adam Smith's.

Predictable tax rates not necessarily low tax rates is what prevents economic shocks that increase unemployment rates & destroy the wealth of nations. The shock in 2008 exploded the unemployment rate. Going past the deadline only to reverse a predicted tax change retroactively is just unnecessarily throwing jobs out the window.

There is a big debate about what business leaders expect in terms of predictability. A lot of the literature slops over into concepts of "confidence". I would agree that predictability of tax structure is a good idea, which makes the Bush pattern of extending tax breaks a year or two at a time a really bad idea. If any changes are planned (for example a lowering of the marginal corporate income tax rate which I support) they work better if announced and implemented either immediately or on a phase-in schedule.

These idiots had better do something smart soon or just let the cliff pass & move on. Whipsawing the economy is retarded just like failing to raise the debt ceiling in time earned US a credit downgrade. We will get another downgrade for being stupid.

I agree. The debt ceiling is a strange thing to begin with. We could abolish it and everything would work just fine. Congress can limit spending through the normal budget process if it wants to; so why do we need a debt ceiling? It's the equivalent of a business approving a budget, placing the orders, and then refusing to issue checks in payment when the invoices come in.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Rivals dig in as "fiscal cliff" drama debuts

Source: Rivals dig in as 'fiscal cliff' drama debuts

WASHINGTON - Both sides in the "fiscal cliff" debate stood their ground on Tuesday as they gathered in Washington for the first time since the elections, with a fundamental tax dispute preventing a broader compromise on deficit reduction. The White House made clear it was ready to negotiate with Republicans on taxes and spending, but a spokesman for Democratic President Barack Obama said he will not budge on insisting that the wealthy's tax rates must rise in 2013.

The president wants to extend low individual income tax rates beyond year's end for 98 percent of Americans, but he will not agree to extending them for the top 2 percent of earners, said White House spokesman Jay Carney at a news conference. On the Senate floor, Republican Leader Mitch McConnell said his party was open to discussing new government revenues, but not raising tax rates. "We're ... not about to further weaken the economy by raising tax rates and hurting jobs," he said. The defiant remarks came as Congress returned from a post-election break with seven weeks left to deal with the "fiscal cliff," a convergence of urgent tax and spending issues that, if mishandled, could plunge the economy into another recession according to the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office.

What say you?

It's not a cliff. it's a pothole.

According to the nonpartisan CBO (cue angelic choir)

For fiscal year 2012 (which ends on September 30), the federal budget deficit will total $1.1 trillion, CBO estimates, marking the fourth year in a row with a deficit of more than $1 trillion. That projection is down slightly from the $1.2 trillion deficit that CBO projected in March. At 7.3 percent of gross domestic product (GDP), this year’s deficit will be three-quarters as large as the deficit in 2009 when measured relative to the size of the economy. Federal debt held by the public will reach 73 percent of GDP by the end of this fiscal year—the highest level since 1950 and about twice the share that it measured at the end of 2007, before the financial crisis and recent recession.

CBO expects the economic recovery to continue at a modest pace for the remainder of calendar year 2012, with real (inflation-adjusted) GDP growing at an annual rate of about 2¼ percent in the second half of the year, compared with a rate of about 1¾ percent in the first half. The unemployment rate will stay above 8 percent for the rest of the year, CBO estimates, and the rate of inflation in consumer prices will remain low.

CBO has prepared—as it does under its routine procedures—baseline projections that incorporate the assumption that current laws generally remain in place; those projections are designed to serve as a benchmark that policymakers can use when considering possible changes to those laws. However, the outlook for the budget deficit, federal debt, and the economy are especially uncertain now because substantial changes to tax and spending policies are scheduled to take effect in January 2013. Therefore, CBO has also prepared projections under an alternative fiscal scenario, which embodies the assumption that many policies that have recently been in effect will be continued.

Key aspects of our projections are illustrated in the figures below.
What Policy Changes Are Scheduled to Take Effect in January 2013?

Among the policy changes that are due to occur in January under current law, the following will have the largest impact on the budget and the economy:

A host of significant provisions of the Tax Relief, Unemployment Insurance Reauthorization, and Job Creation Act of 2010 (Public Law 111-312) are set to expire, including provisions that extended reductions in tax rates and expansions of tax credits and deductions originally enacted in 2001, 2003, or 2009. (Provisions designed to limit the reach of the alternative minimum tax, or AMT, expired on December 31, 2011.)
Sharp reductions in Medicare’s payment rates for physicians’ services are scheduled to take effect.
Automatic enforcement procedures established by the Budget Control Act of 2011 (P.L. 112-25) to restrain discretionary and mandatory spending are set to go into effect.
Extensions of emergency unemployment benefits and a reduction of 2 percentage points in the payroll tax for Social Security are scheduled to expire.

What Is the Budget and Economic Outlook for 2013?

CBO’s Baseline: Taking into account the policy changes listed above and others contained in current law, under CBO’s baseline projections:

The deficit will shrink to an estimated $641 billion in fiscal year 2013 (or 4.0 percent of GDP), almost $500 billion less than the shortfall in 2012.

Such fiscal tightening will lead to economic conditions in 2013 that will probably be considered a recession, with real GDP declining by 0.5 percent between the fourth quarter of 2012 and the fourth quarter of 2013 and the unemployment rate rising to about 9 percent in the second half of calendar year 2013.

Because of the large amount of unused resources in the economy and other factors, the rate of inflation (as measured by the personal consumption expenditures, or PCE, price index) will remain low in 2013. In addition, interest rates on Treasury securities are expected to be very low next year.

So you see the term "what will probably be considered a recession" is not the same as the hyperbole you used.

Now think about this for a minute.

If GDP declines by half a percent and unemployment rises 1% , are we really any worse off than we have been the past 4 years?

 

[KissMy]

Volatility kills markets & jobs. Investment outflows have been breaking records since 2008.

 

[Skull Pilot]

So does uncertainty and this administration specializes in uncertainty

 

[freedombecki]

Rivals dig in as "fiscal cliff" drama debuts

Source: Rivals dig in as 'fiscal cliff' drama debuts

WASHINGTON - Both sides in the "fiscal cliff" debate stood their ground on Tuesday as they gathered in Washington for the first time since the elections, with a fundamental tax dispute preventing a broader compromise on deficit reduction. The White House made clear it was ready to negotiate with Republicans on taxes and spending, but a spokesman for Democratic President Barack Obama said he will not budge on insisting that the wealthy's tax rates must rise in 2013.

The president wants to extend low individual income tax rates beyond year's end for 98 percent of Americans, but he will not agree to extending them for the top 2 percent of earners, said White House spokesman Jay Carney at a news conference. On the Senate floor, Republican Leader Mitch McConnell said his party was open to discussing new government revenues, but not raising tax rates. "We're ... not about to further weaken the economy by raising tax rates and hurting jobs," he said. The defiant remarks came as Congress returned from a post-election break with seven weeks left to deal with the "fiscal cliff," a convergence of urgent tax and spending issues that, if mishandled, could plunge the economy into another recession according to the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office.

What say you?

which party got the country downgraded by the finacial sector so they could stomp their feet and throw a tantrum?


which party have the American people already desided they will blame if we do go off this cliff?


both have one answer.

the republican party

The reason that is not the truth, truthmatters, is because of three things:

(1) The Executive Branch is in charge of the Bully Pulpit it did not use because Obama knew he spent a lot of money, and Rahm Emanuel from the days of being in the Clinton White House wanted to keep their financial shenanigans swept under the carpet, so there they stayed. They demanded money spending hand over fist and they got it, in front of God and everybody.

(2) The First two years of Obama's Make-a-Wish and Spend-a-Thon Government, the Democrats held power in both houses. That was a disaster that even scared the least smart bright people, so after two years of non-stop spending and companies going bankrupt that just received half a billion dollars and more of 100% taxpayer-backed loans paid to them in full, the Republicans saved the day by insisting that law needed to be rescinded that gave the right for Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid's In Laws and children to grab root and growl at the United States Treasury. The American people didn't like it either and voted in Republicans into power in the House and the Senate, except the next day, a precinct chairman in Minnesota "found" a box full of votes claimed to be all Democrat votes, so Democrat talking points online from coast to coast had all of you squealing at the top of your lungs "voter disenfranchisement" which was a lie and everybody knew it except the precinct chairpersons with their fingerprints all over the raw deal and egg smeared on their ear-to-ear grinning mushes as the Democrat overseer declared winner Ken Coleman the loser and gave the votes to Hollyweird's very own failed and unpopular hate-conservatives PBS announcer who was out of a job for low ratings and liberals decided he would punish Republicans harder than ever considering his history. That put Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid right back in the job that would prevent Republicans from turning the economy around, and he has been most uncooperative ever since by pidgeon-holing Republican measures that would get the economy back on track and people employed.

His noncooperation caused Obama's White House to publish yet more misinformation on the dire unemployment situation by using part-time jobs counted as full-time jobs, which made his statistics one big fat-ass lie.

Don't you ever tell me to believe your hubris of lying and parroting Obama's snarky little obfuscations of how bad things really are for the 15% of Americans that have been out of work for a long time.

The only person who is throwing a tantrum is Obama, who is desperate to raise taxes, and he keeps beating the drum "get the wealthy" when what he means to say is "don't look at how the middle class is just about to get stuck with the highest tax hike in history in January from my 'Affordable Care Act'."

Here's just a couple of ways Obama throws tantrums when he isn't locked away from the public with a "do not disturb" sign posted on his door alternatively with "out on the links" sign when he really doesn't want to be bothered with your issues, America.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVOQSSGNn7s]Obama Kicks Door And Knocks Over Podium (DOPEMAN REMIX) - YouTube[/ame]

People like you who blindly believe Obama really cares about anything except himself are why he will keep on not paying attention to America's fiscal peril his overspending has brought about.
​

The Republicans are just doing what civil people do--not cooperating with Obama's refusal to budget America's money and spend it on the most important things of government--protection of our borders, protection of our troops, and protection of the American people since he's such a braying, kicking, pushing donkey.