Democrats and Republicans are one

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Where does oligarchy fit into the US Republic/Democracy debate.

of course if there was an oligarachy you would be able to say exactly who the oligarchs are. Further, you would be able to say why when the very very wealthy run for office they mostly lose because people are able to decide whether the wealthy person is the prefered candidate or not.

 

[georgephillip]

Where does oligarchy fit into the US Republic/Democracy debate.

of course if there was an oligarachy you would be able to say exactly who the oligarchs are. Further, you would be able to say why when the very very wealthy run for office they mostly lose because people are able to decide whether the wealthy person is the prefered candidate or not.

Why do you think the Koch brothers want to run for office?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Where does oligarchy fit into the US Republic/Democracy debate.

of course if there was an oligarachy you would be able to say exactly who the oligarchs are. Further, you would be able to say why when the very very wealthy run for office they mostly lose because people are able to decide whether the wealthy person is the prefered candidate or not.

Why do you think the Koch brothers want to run for office?

of course if there was an oligarachy you would be able to say exactly who the oligarchs are. Further, you would be able to say why when the very very wealthy run for office they mostly lose because people are able to decide whether the wealthy person is the prefered candidate or not

 

[FA_Q2]

[snip]

We agree on most of this. The core problem is the two party system and they have kept that power by demonizing the other side. Politics today is not vote for me because I am great. Instead, its vote for me because the other guy wants to murder children in their sleep and serve them on the dinner table. We don’t want to bother with the fact that it is false, that is minor detail. We will just say it until its true.

We do have the power though. The people just need to wake up to it. As long as we vote for this guy out of fear for the other one, we are going to continue to end up serving the same masters.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

[snip]

We agree on most of this. The core problem is the two party system and they have kept that power by demonizing the other side. Politics today is not vote for me because I am great. Instead, its vote for me because the other guy wants to murder children in their sleep and serve them on the dinner table. We don’t want to bother with the fact that it is false, that is minor detail. We will just say it until its true.

We do have the power though. The people just need to wake up to it. As long as we vote for this guy out of fear for the other one, we are going to continue to end up serving the same masters.

But Republicans honestly believe we should fear Democrats. What matters is if they are right or wrong; so you should focus on that question alone- right?

 

[tipofthespear]

[snip]

We agree on most of this. The core problem is the two party system and they have kept that power by demonizing the other side. Politics today is not vote for me because I am great. Instead, its vote for me because the other guy wants to murder children in their sleep and serve them on the dinner table. We don’t want to bother with the fact that it is false, that is minor detail. We will just say it until its true.

We do have the power though. The people just need to wake up to it. As long as we vote for this guy out of fear for the other one, we are going to continue to end up serving the same masters.

But Republicans honestly believe we should fear Democrats. What matters is if they are right or wrong; so you should focus on that question alone- right?

As opposed to Democrats who have for over 50 years used "fear the Republicans" as their standard campaign message? Seriously? Whatever happened to "honesty?" I FEAR it died with the invention of political ideology.

QUOTE: We do have the power though. The people just need to wake up to it. As long as we vote for this guy out of fear for the other one, we are going to continue to end up serving the same masters. END QUOTE.



Sadly, the majority of voters vote based on one thing............"well, I ain't voting for that other guy........cuz he's a (insert party title).......The Two Party System is designed to keep the "In's " in, and everyone else out, and both Parties want to keep it just that way.

 

[georgephillip]

[snip]

We agree on most of this. The core problem is the two party system and they have kept that power by demonizing the other side. Politics today is not vote for me because I am great. Instead, its vote for me because the other guy wants to murder children in their sleep and serve them on the dinner table. We don’t want to bother with the fact that it is false, that is minor detail. We will just say it until its true.

We do have the power though. The people just need to wake up to it. As long as we vote for this guy out of fear for the other one, we are going to continue to end up serving the same masters.

Since the masters finance the same election campaigns and retirements of Republicans AND Democrats alike, waking up would seem to require choosing representatives and senators who don't serve the same corporate interests.

 

[dblack]

[snip]

We agree on most of this. The core problem is the two party system and they have kept that power by demonizing the other side. Politics today is not vote for me because I am great. Instead, its vote for me because the other guy wants to murder children in their sleep and serve them on the dinner table. We don’t want to bother with the fact that it is false, that is minor detail. We will just say it until its true.

We do have the power though. The people just need to wake up to it. As long as we vote for this guy out of fear for the other one, we are going to continue to end up serving the same masters.

Since the masters finance the same election campaigns and retirements of Republicans AND Democrats alike, waking up would seem to require choosing representatives and senators who don't serve the same corporate interests.

Which will be virtually impossible to do consistently, even if we want to. We can't see into the hearts of candidates and know how they will govern once elected. But what we can do consistently, if we make it a priority, is minimize their ability to serve those corporate interests in the first place.

I realize most liberals today aren't enthusiastic about the idea of limited government. They see it, usually, as an attempt to hamstring their agenda - and there's no denying it would put a damper much of it. But I have hope that they can come to realize that same broad powers we've allowed government in the name of social justice, are used to serve the interests of anyone who can manage to twist enough arms (or grease enough palms) on K street.

When we give up on equal protection and rule of law in the name of targeting minorities for special help, we open a pandora's box that can and will be used to "help" (and by omission, harm) any groups that our leaders designate. Simply put, once we start using government to grant special favors to anyone, no matter how much we might agree they deserve it, we open the door for politicians who will 'sell' such favors to the highest bidder. That door's been open a while now, and if we can't figure out a way to close it, the international corporations that we fostered will bleed us dry and move on to greener pastures.

 

[editec]

I realize most liberals today aren't enthusiastic about the idea of limited government

I think most liberals are fearful that a weak government creates a power vacuum whereby the CORPORATIONS gain even more power than they currently have.

Apparently most "liberals" fail to realize that the corporations that currently control government do so because by controlling that franchise, they have an ally that can put people in prison, take their stuff, choose winners and losers etc.

What RATIONAL people want, I suspect is JUST ENOUGH GOVERNMENT to make sure things are fair, but not so much government that the governement becomes a handmaiden for the rich.

Of course in that case, then both LIBERTARIANS AND LIBERALS are bound to be disappointed.

Once power is vested in government it takes enormous power to divest that government of its powers.

The REAL difference between a social democrat or an authentic republican, or even most Libertarians isn't nearly SO VAST as the Kleptocracy's propagandists keep telling us it is.

 

[georgephillip]

We agree on most of this. The core problem is the two party system and they have kept that power by demonizing the other side. Politics today is not vote for me because I am great. Instead, its vote for me because the other guy wants to murder children in their sleep and serve them on the dinner table. We don’t want to bother with the fact that it is false, that is minor detail. We will just say it until its true.

We do have the power though. The people just need to wake up to it. As long as we vote for this guy out of fear for the other one, we are going to continue to end up serving the same masters.

Since the masters finance the same election campaigns and retirements of Republicans AND Democrats alike, waking up would seem to require choosing representatives and senators who don't serve the same corporate interests.

Which will be virtually impossible to do consistently, even if we want to. We can't see into the hearts of candidates and know how they will govern once elected. But what we can do consistently, if we make it a priority, is minimize their ability to serve those corporate interests in the first place.

I realize most liberals today aren't enthusiastic about the idea of limited government. They see it, usually, as an attempt to hamstring their agenda - and there's no denying it would put a damper much of it. But I have hope that they can come to realize that same broad powers we've allowed government in the name of social justice, are used to serve the interests of anyone who can manage to twist enough arms (or grease enough palms) on K street.

When we give up on equal protection and rule of law in the name of targeting minorities for special help, we open a pandora's box that can and will be used to "help" (and by omission, harm) any groups that our leaders designate. Simply put, once we start using government to grant special favors to anyone, no matter how much we might agree they deserve it, we open the door for politicians who will 'sell' such favors to the highest bidder. That door's been open a while now, and if we can't figure out a way to close it, the international corporations that we fostered will bleed us dry and move on to greener pastures.

Db...we've had four decades at least of Republicans AND Democrats moving in lockstep with whatever the corporate oligarchs who fund their election campaigns and retirements desire. We can send those oligarchs a message they've never heard before because this tool we're communicating with right now makes it possible to FLUSH hundreds of incumbents from DC in a single new cycle.

How the newly enfranchised Greens, Libertarians, Independents would govern once in office is impossible to know. I think they wouldn't have the same corporate pressure to conform to the eternal war and endless debt state-of-mind that all Democrats and Republicans can't get elected without.

Next November might be a good time to try...

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Db...we've had four decades at least of Republicans AND Democrats moving in lockstep with whatever the corporate oligarchs who fund their election campaigns and retirements desire. .

That may be mistaken given that out corporate tax rates are the highest in the world and just today Apple and many others are in DC begging Democrats to reduce them to no avail. Sorry

 

[FA_Q2]

Db...we've had four decades at least of Republicans AND Democrats moving in lockstep with whatever the corporate oligarchs who fund their election campaigns and retirements desire. .

That may be mistaken given that out corporate tax rates are the highest in the world and just today Apple and many others are in DC begging Democrats to reduce them to no avail. Sorry

And you are allowing the wool to be pulled over your eyes if you truly think that. Reality is that larger corporations rarely pay a high tax rate. The high taxes actually HELP them because it stifles early startups.

That is the rub with larger business, increased regulation and tax is good for those companies. It locks in their virtual monopolies in their respective markets. You can’t start a small company anymore in a wide array or businesses because the cost to do so is astronomical. That gives those older and larger companies a HUGE advantage.
As one of the posters avatars reads: ‘If libertarians would be good for big business, why do big businesses not support libertarians?’

The reality is that big business does not want a free market with low regulatory structure. If that were the case, they would have to bother with competition.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Reality is that larger corporations rarely pay a high tax rate.

all agree, but the point is that GE, for example, has 1000 full time tax professionals, produces a 2 foot thick return, restructures their corporation all over the world, and moves much of it offshore; all in order to avoid the highest taxes in the world! It is hugely wasteful and inefficient and very bad for the domestic economy.

high taxes actually HELP them because it stifles early startups.
That is the rub with larger business, increased regulation and tax is good for those companies. It locks in their virtual monopolies in their respective markets.

why not name some actual virtual monopolies, and then explain how high tax rates and regulation lock in their "monopolies"

As one of the posters avatars reads: ‘If libertarians would be good for big business, why do big businesses not support libertarians?’

actually no one supports libertarians. They get 3% or so. Sorry

The reality is that big business does not want a free market with low regulatory structure. If that were the case, they would have to bother with competition.

yes of course they want to avoid the rigors of competition by buying liberal government. Obamacare is the picture perfect example! Crony liberalism or socialism is the term of art. Crony capitalism makes no sense since under capitalism business and government are separate while under liberalism or socialism they are combined, like in Obamacare.