Democracy or Capitalism

[Rat in the Hat]

 

[Wry Catcher]

Both.

Good. We are a Constituional Republc but so is The People's Republic of China. Why do we differ? (hint. the answer was in the earlier questions).

So, their constitution says the same thing as our constitution? Shit....

"Shit"? lol, okay I'll dumb it down for you.

China has but one political party, the Communist Party, codified in their constitution. Our Constitution mentions not rights, obligations or prohibitions on politcal parties. So to infer we are a democratic republic with a constitution is the answer.

The OP asks to choose between Capitalism and Democracy; the proper question to ask is between Capitalism and another economic theory, or between democracy and a monarchy, a plutocracy, an oligarchy or many other types of government in theory and in practice.

See:
Political Parties | Udfl

 

[midcan5]

"Moreover, if we give the matter a moment's thought, we can see that the 20th century morality tale of 'socialism vs. freedom' or 'communism vs. capitalism' is misleading. Capitalism is not a political system; it is a form of economic life, compatible in practice with right wing dictatorships (Chile under Pinochet), left-wing dictatorships (contemporary China), social-democratic monarchies (Sweden), and plutocratic republics (the United States), whether capitalist economies thrive best under conditions of freedom is perhaps more of an open question than we like to think." Tony Judt 'Ill fares the Land'

While I have read the arguments that we are this weird thing some label a 'republic' the fact is we vote in the buffoons who manage to pad their pockets through our democratically elected plutocracy - well that's what it has become since Reagan started the destruction of the working class. Bushs and Clinton helped in that destruction too. We should get rid of the electoral college as that is one useless institution today. Capitalism is another label and excuse for free market stupidity. Of course capitalism keeps failing in America because like all fantasyland ideas people get involved and bingo or is that crasho.

"Libertarian solutions favored by the political right have contributed even more directly to the erosion of social responsibilities and valued forms of communal life, particularly in the UK and the US. Far from producing beneficial communal consequences, the invisible hand of unregulated free-market capitalism undermines the family (e.g., few corporations provide enough leave to parents of newborn children), disrupts local communities (e.g., following plant closings or the shifting of corporate headquarters), and corrupts the political process (e.g., US politicians are often dependent on economic interest groups for their political survival, with the consequence that they no longer represent the community at large). Moreover, the valorization of greed in the Thatcher/Reagan era justified the extension of instrumental considerations governing relationships in the marketplace into spheres previously informed by a sense of uncalculated reciprocity and civil obligation. This trend has been reinforced by increasing globalization, which pressures states into conforming to the dictates of the international marketplace." Daniel Bell in Communitarianism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

or this:

"...In his classic study of mid 19th century American labor, Norman Ware observes that the imposition of industrial capitalism and its values 'was repugnant to an astonishingly large section of the earlier American community'. The primary reason was 'the decline of the industrial worker as a person', the 'degradation' and 'psychological change' that followed from the 'loss of dignity and independence' and of democratic rights and freedoms. These reactions were vividly expressed in the working class literature, often by women, who played a prominent role despite their subordination in the general society." Introduction Alex Carey 'Taking The Risk Out Of Democracy'

 

[Avorysuds]

"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams

And yet you fully support Obama, the most owned man in the history of the world by big corporations and the rich. The biggest war president in US history and still hold the title of Bush's Evil Policies repealed = zero.

Wait, your cock hungry for Obamabunz… No amount of reality and FACTS will ever sway your blind obedient and servitude to your master. Hell, we live in a Democracy because we all voted on Obamacare and to start a war with Libya and Pakistan... to expand Afghanistan and to still be in Iraq... to expand homeland security and torture people. All voted on in our Democracy.

 

[Avorysuds]

Good. We are a Constituional Republc but so is The People's Republic of China. Why do we differ? (hint. the answer was in the earlier questions).

So, their constitution says the same thing as our constitution? Shit....

"Shit"? lol, okay I'll dumb it down for you.

China has but one political party, the Communist Party, codified in their constitution. Our Constitution mentions not rights, obligations or prohibitions on politcal parties. So to infer we are a democratic republic with a constitution is the answer.

The OP asks to choose between Capitalism and Democracy; the proper question to ask is between Capitalism and another economic theory, or between democracy and a monarchy, a plutocracy, an oligarchy or many other types of government in theory and in practice.

See:
Political Parties | Udfl

Believe me I understand, and agree with you... However as you said, "the proper question" would have been. TM implies we are a Democracy, we are not, it's *part* of who we are as a nation as it's built in and used somewhere in the mix but we are not a "democracy." Capitalism is built into the mix as well yet we are not a "capitalism country." So the questions were fucking retarded, asked by a retarded posters on these boards who hate blinds them.

 

[Truthmatters]

We are a democracy.

Its the defintion of the word.

Quit trying to redefine words for your poltical point system

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams

That quote was aimed towards people in the colonies who wanted nothing to do with the revolution, not to do with capitalism or democracy or whatever else you're trying to make it.

 

[dblack]

Freedom and Democracy are dependent on each other. If you abolish economic freedom, political expression and free thought fall as well.

 

[Robert]

"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams

Funny how we see that today where some have traded their freedom for supposed safety at the hands of the Brown shirts.

 

[Robert]

We are a democracy.

Its the defintion of the word.

Quit trying to redefine words for your poltical point system

Representative Republic we are not a Democracy.

Granted, the Founders all recognized “the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances,” but they did so from the vantage point of a republican form of government rather than a democratic one. In fact, the fear of “democracy” was foremost in the minds of many of our Founders as this nation was birthed.

One of the reasons our Founders opposed democracy was because of its short life expectancy. Said John Adams, the second president of the United States: “Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” And because they feared the violence (think Wisconsin’s teachers’ unions) that usually accompanies a democracy’s suicide, Benjamin Rush warned: “A simple democracy is one of the greatest of evils.”

Predominantly, the Founders viewed democracy as “mob rule.” A form of government in which a mere a minority of the population could manipulate a majority of voters into supporting their cause, therefore giving the few control over the purses, the land, and the lives of the many. (Case in point: the 10% of the employees in this country who are unionized and who, through the partnership unions share with the Democrat Party, have been able to live off the monies confiscated from taxes on the 90% of non-unionized employees.)

On the other hand, our Founders adhered to a republican form of government because of its stability over the long haul. It wasn’t given to “change,” thus even the most charismatic of leaders, or politicians, would always be constrained by the limitations placed upon him (or her) by the Constitution and the laws of nature.

In this we are reminded of another reason our Founders preferred a republican form of government: namely, because it is rational rather than emotional.

It is democracy that provides an emotional base sufficient to allow a union boss to take to the airwaves (or the streets of Wisconsin) and defend the belief that their members ought to receive healthcare and pension benefits at the expense of someone else. Moreover, the emotionalism of a perceived democracy not only allows them to do this, but apparently also keeps them from feeling shame for having done it.

Clearly, one of the greatest lessons from Wisconsin is a reminder of why our Founding Fathers despised democracy.

» Lessons From Wisconsin: No Wonder the Founding Fathers Equated Democracy with Mob Rule - Big Government

 

[Robert]

And if that doesn't work for you try this.... Spoiler its the same thing.

The Electoral College vs. Mob Rule

by Rep. Ron Paul, MD
by Rep. Ron Paul, MD

Today's presidential election is likely to be relatively close, at least in terms of popular vote totals. Should either candidate win the election but lose the overall popular vote, we will be bombarded with calls to abolish the Electoral College, just as we were after the contested 2000 presidential election. After all, the pundits will argue, it would be “undemocratic” to deny the presidency to the man who received the most votes.

This argument is hostile to the Constitution, however, which expressly established the United States as a constitutionally limited republic and not a direct democracy. The Founding Fathers sought to protect certain fundamental freedoms, such as freedom of speech, against the changing whims of popular opinion. Similarly, they created the Electoral College to guard against majority tyranny in federal elections. The president was to be elected by the 50 states rather than the American people directly, to ensure that less populated states had a voice in national elections. This is why they blended Electoral College votes between U.S. House seats, which are based on population, and U.S. Senate seats, which are accorded equally to each state. The goal was to balance the inherent tension between majority will and majority tyranny. Those who wish to abolish the Electoral College because it's not purely democratic should also argue that less populated states like Rhode Island or Wyoming don't deserve two senators.

A presidential campaign in a purely democratic system would look very strange indeed, as any rational candidate would focus only on a few big population centers. A candidate receiving a large percentage of the popular vote in California, Texas, Florida, and New York, for example, could win the presidency with very little support in dozens of other states. Moreover, a popular vote system would only intensify political pandering, as national candidates would face even greater pressure than today to take empty, middle-of-the-road, poll-tested, mainstream positions. Direct democracy in national politics would further dilute regional differences of opinion on issues, further narrow voter choices, and further emasculate political courage.

Those who call for the abolition of the Electoral College are hostile to liberty. Not surprisingly, most advocates of abolition are statist elites concentrated largely on the east and west coasts. These political, economic, academic, media, and legal elites overwhelmingly favor a strong centralized federal government, and express contempt for the federalist concept of states' rights. They believe in omnipotent federal power, with states acting as mere glorified federal counties carrying out commands from Washington.

The Electoral College threatens the imperial aims of these elites because it allows the individual states to elect the president, and in many states the majority of voters still believe in limited government and the Constitution. Voters in southern, midwestern, and western states — derided as “flyover” country — tend to value family, religion, individual liberty, property rights, and gun rights. Washington elites abhor these values, and they hate that middle and rural America hold any political power whatsoever. Their efforts to discredit the Electoral College system are an open attack on the voting power of the pro-liberty states.

Sadly, we have forgotten that states created the federal government, not the other way around. The Electoral College system represents an attempt, however effective, to limit federal power and preserve states' rights. It is an essential part of our federalist balance. It also represents a reminder that pure democracy, mob rule, is incompatible with liberty.

November 2, 2004

Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.

The Electoral College vs. Mob Rule by Ron Paul

 

[Avorysuds]

We are a democracy.

Its the defintion of the word.

Quit trying to redefine words for your poltical point system

Fact: TM is wrong.

 

[Wry Catcher]

"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams

And yet you fully support Obama, the most owned man in the history of the world by big corporations and the rich. The biggest war president in US history and still hold the title of Bush's Evil Policies repealed = zero.

Wait, your cock hungry for Obamabunz… No amount of reality and FACTS will ever sway your blind obedient and servitude to your master. Hell, we live in a Democracy because we all voted on Obamacare and to start a war with Libya and Pakistan... to expand Afghanistan and to still be in Iraq... to expand homeland security and torture people. All voted on in our Democracy.

It's a bit early for you to be drunk so the profane and hatful comments in this post suggest a serious anger issue as well as historical ignorance. I suggest you listen to Mel Gibson's drunken rant and see how others might precieve your vile post.

 

[Truthmatters]

you dont get to redefine words for your political purposes.

 

[The T]

We are a democracy.

Its the defintion of the word.

Quit trying to redefine words for your poltical point system

Representative Republic we are not a Democracy.

Granted, the Founders all recognized “the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances,” but they did so from the vantage point of a republican form of government rather than a democratic one. In fact, the fear of “democracy” was foremost in the minds of many of our Founders as this nation was birthed.

One of the reasons our Founders opposed democracy was because of its short life expectancy. Said John Adams, the second president of the United States: “Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” And because they feared the violence (think Wisconsin’s teachers’ unions) that usually accompanies a democracy’s suicide, Benjamin Rush warned: “A simple democracy is one of the greatest of evils.”

Predominantly, the Founders viewed democracy as “mob rule.” A form of government in which a mere a minority of the population could manipulate a majority of voters into supporting their cause, therefore giving the few control over the purses, the land, and the lives of the many. (Case in point: the 10% of the employees in this country who are unionized and who, through the partnership unions share with the Democrat Party, have been able to live off the monies confiscated from taxes on the 90% of non-unionized employees.)

On the other hand, our Founders adhered to a republican form of government because of its stability over the long haul. It wasn’t given to “change,” thus even the most charismatic of leaders, or politicians, would always be constrained by the limitations placed upon him (or her) by the Constitution and the laws of nature.

In this we are reminded of another reason our Founders preferred a republican form of government: namely, because it is rational rather than emotional.

It is democracy that provides an emotional base sufficient to allow a union boss to take to the airwaves (or the streets of Wisconsin) and defend the belief that their members ought to receive healthcare and pension benefits at the expense of someone else. Moreover, the emotionalism of a perceived democracy not only allows them to do this, but apparently also keeps them from feeling shame for having done it.

Clearly, one of the greatest lessons from Wisconsin is a reminder of why our Founding Fathers despised democracy.

» Lessons From Wisconsin: No Wonder the Founding Fathers Equated Democracy with Mob Rule - Big Government

Perhaps TDM can show us in the Founding Documents where the word appears? And why The Constitution was pushed rather than stay with the Articles Of Confederation?

 

[Truthmatters]

Democracy | Define Democracy at Dictionary.com



de·moc·ra·cy   /dɪˈmɒkrəsi/ Show Spelled
[dih-mok-ruh-see] Show IPA

–noun, plural -cies.
1. government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.

 

[Avorysuds]

"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams

And yet you fully support Obama, the most owned man in the history of the world by big corporations and the rich. The biggest war president in US history and still hold the title of Bush's Evil Policies repealed = zero.

Wait, your cock hungry for Obamabunz… No amount of reality and FACTS will ever sway your blind obedient and servitude to your master. Hell, we live in a Democracy because we all voted on Obamacare and to start a war with Libya and Pakistan... to expand Afghanistan and to still be in Iraq... to expand homeland security and torture people. All voted on in our Democracy.

It's a bit early for you to be drunk so the profane and hatful comments in this post suggest a serious anger issue as well as historical ignorance. I suggest you listen to Mel Gibson's drunken rant and see how others might precieve your vile post.

Yes, others view me as Mel Gibson... Good call.

So, America is a Democracy WCer?

 

[DiamondDave]

Having SOME representative officials that are chosen by democratic election, limited and controlled by a constitution in a republican form of government does not equate to a democracy....

Sorry TM... you have been bitch slapped on this before, and you probably will be again.... because truth matters nothing to you... just your hyper-partisan warped propaganda

 

[Spoonman]

I just got here. Has anyone lol'd at truthmaters yet?

 

[Truthmatters]

Why do you people not know the differenace between pure or direct democracy and Democracy?


Who has been filling your heads with lies?