Defending Obama - The Increasingly Difficult Task

It is obvious that George W. Bush lied about the non-existent WMD so he could have his war with Iraq. The purpose was to try a new method of getting rid of problem anti-American dictators.
First, Saddam Hussein was an effective ally of the U.S. in our mutual hostility with Iran during the hostage crisis. Our aggression against Iraq came about by deliberately double-crossing him when he notifed us of his intention to (justifiably) attack Kuwait and asked if we had any objection. We said we didn't, then turned on him and destroyed his army, thus removing him as a threat to Saudi Arabia -- a close and intimate friend of the bush dynasty.

That the Saudis had the Bushes in their pockets can hardly be denied, but you've got the wrong war up there. You are referring to Desert Storm by Geo. H.W. Bush to protect Kuwait (and yes, Saudi Arabia) whereas I was talking about the second Iraq War with the mythical WMD. You make an interesting post about your idea that the female ambassador who gave Saddam bad info was actually a doublecross.......getting Iraq to aggress so we could more easily go in there to protect our oil supply. I don't know that I believe it, but it's a creative and interesting idea. Certainly a better excuse for war than the "WMD" that essentially NO one believed in except those kind of people who believe everything the government tells them.


And you approve of a policy which has incrementally destroyed our reputation and transformed the United States into the most hated nation in the world? While I will agree that our government got over on us with the phony attacks on the Maine and the Tonkin Gulf (while ignoring Israel's very real attack on the USS Liberty) there was too much evidence in advance of the WMD deception to not know it was a lie. How long do you think the U.S. can survive conducting this kind of menacing foreign policy? If WW-III doesn't destroy our Nation it will turn it into something beyond Orwell's Nineteen Eighty Four.


Did I say I approve of starting wars with lies? I don't, but I don't approve of lots of things, like genocide or biowarfare or nuclear bombs or illegal immigration invasions, but it all happens anyway. I think we should look at the world as it is and not get too hung up on useless "oughta be's." Your last sentence is not useful because who knows how our nation will change? Split up into various territories is my best guess. No one can say it "will" do this or that. Reality does its own thing and is not constrained by the limited patterns of our minds.

You ask, "How long do you think the U.S. can survive conducting this kind of menacing foreign policy?" and IMO that's a good question and relates to a lot of strange stuff going on today. During the century of world wars just past Germany started aggressive wars twice with the explicit goal of ruling all Europe, including England. Japan started its world war after taking over much of China with extreme brutality. The whole developed world combined against these powers, as they would against rabid dogs or a wolf pack. And we learned from that right away: get allies in on wars so the world doesn't gang up against us and put us down. Even the Korean War was a "UN effort," ha-ha. Vietnam faked up a few allies, Australia notably. Serbia was "NATO" and so is Afghanistan, supposedly, and of course since the UN wouldn't do Iraq, we had the "Coalition of the Willing," which was quite large at first. All the allies there just for show train their troops for awhile and then drop out, of course.

However, while none of our larger wars have worked and all have been lost after long periods of debt and deficit (Korea, Vietnam, Iraq II, Afghanistan), the coalitions strategy has worked pretty well to keep the world from treating us like a Germany. I'm not worried about our survival vis-a-vis the rest of the world as much as our survival given the terrible cost and debt and deficit of such wars; that debt and expense is always, always what brings down governments and states century after century: see the French Revolution, which started because the French crown had completely bankrupted itself with futile and pointless long losing wars.


The first and critically important fact you are ignoring is our destruction of Japan and Germany were justified actions. They had attacked us and threatened to destroy us. Iraq did nothing to us. What we did to Iraq is clearly a war crime and the world clearly perceives and understands the implications of that.

All war is justified if you WIN. Be sure, if Germany had won either war, I or II, we would all agree that Germany was totally justified in taking its rightful place in control of Europe and much of the rest of the world. Serbia did nothing to us, either, but since Clinton won in ten and a half weeks, hands down, with a remarkable technology show, no one ever complains that this war was a "war crime."

Our problem is that we keep losing, and losing for a long, long time, lately at least ten years. The world will never excuse losing a war; it will always excuse and celebrate winning a war. Any war.

Don't consider how you want the world to be; consider how it IS. That's hard enough for anyone, since no one involved tells the truth about it. You don't have a long lever or a fulcrum and you cannot move the world. May as well just try to understand it.
 
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It's dishonest because you are framing this as though Obama knew about this Monsanto provision and signed it anyway. It turns out that very few people knew about it, and the Senator who slipped it in did it anonymously, which for some reason they are allowed to do.

If you were honest (or, perhaps just informed) you would have started this thread against the anonymous Senator and the Senate rules that allowed this to happen. But then you wouldn't be able to take another swipe at the President Of The United States, would you?

So, you are excusing him because he didn’t read the bill he signed.

Really?

I do have to agree with the anonymous thing though. Everything in the congress should be recorded, from all votes to all objections/riders/bills introduced.

Most Senators and Congressmen do not read the bills that they vote on. They have a staff that does that for them, who present their analysis to their boss for consideration.

Yet, you expect that the President Of The United States should ignore hi staff and personally pour over every bill before signing it.

One of the most ridiculous thing that you have posted.’

You are damn right I think that the president – as well as any congressman – should be reading what they vote for. It is absolutely nuts, and an indication of how far the public has slid – when people are willing to defend a politicians vote or support based on ‘they didn’t read it’

The presidents NUMBER ONE JOB is signing legislation right next to running the military. I realize that so much time needs to be taken out making speeches and raising money now but that is not going to convince me that I should give him a pass on actually doing his job.

I can’t fathom how you are able to give your representatives a pass because they hired dumb aids that do not give them all the information to do their job for them but I, for one, am not going to do such a thing. His signature is there. He passed the law when he had the chance of veto. HE IS RESPONSIBLE.
 
So, you are excusing him because he didn’t read the bill he signed.

Really?

I do have to agree with the anonymous thing though. Everything in the congress should be recorded, from all votes to all objections/riders/bills introduced.

Most Senators and Congressmen do not read the bills that they vote on. They have a staff that does that for them, who present their analysis to their boss for consideration.

Yet, you expect that the President Of The United States should ignore hi staff and personally pour over every bill before signing it.

One of the most ridiculous thing that you have posted.’

You are damn right I think that the president – as well as any congressman – should be reading what they vote for. It is absolutely nuts, and an indication of how far the public has slid – when people are willing to defend a politicians vote or support based on ‘they didn’t read it’

The presidents NUMBER ONE JOB is signing legislation right next to running the military. I realize that so much time needs to be taken out making speeches and raising money now but that is not going to convince me that I should give him a pass on actually doing his job.

I can’t fathom how you are able to give your representatives a pass because they hired dumb aids that do not give them all the information to do their job for them but I, for one, am not going to do such a thing. His signature is there. He passed the law when he had the chance of veto. HE IS RESPONSIBLE.


Do you think that Lloyd Blankfein reads the details of every Goldman-Sachs transaction?

You're not this stupid, are you?
 
Do you think that Lloyd Blankfein reads the details of every Goldman-Sachs transaction?

You're not this stupid, are you?

Hey Synth how come you didn't address the question I asked you earlier?

I'll summarize:

1.) You said that the President didn't know about the rider and if he did you would hold him accountable, ect.

2.) I said well, how is it possible that 250 thousand private individuals knew about the rider (ie the petition) while the President of the United States did not? I asked that isn't it pretty likely that the President (in light of this) probably had some knowledge of the Monsanto protection provision?

3.) Your response?


.
 
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It is obvious that George W. Bush lied about the non-existent WMD so he could have his war with Iraq. The purpose was to try a new method of getting rid of problem anti-American dictators.
First, Saddam Hussein was an effective ally of the U.S. in our mutual hostility with Iran during the hostage crisis. Our aggression against Iraq came about by deliberately double-crossing him when he notifed us of his intention to (justifiably) attack Kuwait and asked if we had any objection. We said we didn't, then turned on him and destroyed his army, thus removing him as a threat to Saudi Arabia -- a close and intimate friend of the bush dynasty.

That the Saudis had the Bushes in their pockets can hardly be denied, but you've got the wrong war up there. You are referring to Desert Storm by Geo. H.W. Bush to protect Kuwait (and yes, Saudi Arabia) whereas I was talking about the second Iraq War with the mythical WMD. You make an interesting post about your idea that the female ambassador who gave Saddam bad info was actually a doublecross.......getting Iraq to aggress so we could more easily go in there to protect our oil supply. I don't know that I believe it, but it's a creative and interesting idea. Certainly a better excuse for war than the "WMD" that essentially NO one believed in except those kind of people who believe everything the government tells them.


And you approve of a policy which has incrementally destroyed our reputation and transformed the United States into the most hated nation in the world? While I will agree that our government got over on us with the phony attacks on the Maine and the Tonkin Gulf (while ignoring Israel's very real attack on the USS Liberty) there was too much evidence in advance of the WMD deception to not know it was a lie. How long do you think the U.S. can survive conducting this kind of menacing foreign policy? If WW-III doesn't destroy our Nation it will turn it into something beyond Orwell's Nineteen Eighty Four.


Did I say I approve of starting wars with lies? I don't, but I don't approve of lots of things, like genocide or biowarfare or nuclear bombs or illegal immigration invasions, but it all happens anyway. I think we should look at the world as it is and not get too hung up on useless "oughta be's." Your last sentence is not useful because who knows how our nation will change? Split up into various territories is my best guess. No one can say it "will" do this or that. Reality does its own thing and is not constrained by the limited patterns of our minds.

You ask, "How long do you think the U.S. can survive conducting this kind of menacing foreign policy?" and IMO that's a good question and relates to a lot of strange stuff going on today. During the century of world wars just past Germany started aggressive wars twice with the explicit goal of ruling all Europe, including England. Japan started its world war after taking over much of China with extreme brutality. The whole developed world combined against these powers, as they would against rabid dogs or a wolf pack. And we learned from that right away: get allies in on wars so the world doesn't gang up against us and put us down. Even the Korean War was a "UN effort," ha-ha. Vietnam faked up a few allies, Australia notably. Serbia was "NATO" and so is Afghanistan, supposedly, and of course since the UN wouldn't do Iraq, we had the "Coalition of the Willing," which was quite large at first. All the allies there just for show train their troops for awhile and then drop out, of course.

However, while none of our larger wars have worked and all have been lost after long periods of debt and deficit (Korea, Vietnam, Iraq II, Afghanistan), the coalitions strategy has worked pretty well to keep the world from treating us like a Germany. I'm not worried about our survival vis-a-vis the rest of the world as much as our survival given the terrible cost and debt and deficit of such wars; that debt and expense is always, always what brings down governments and states century after century: see the French Revolution, which started because the French crown had completely bankrupted itself with futile and pointless long losing wars.


The first and critically important fact you are ignoring is our destruction of Japan and Germany were justified actions. They had attacked us and threatened to destroy us. Iraq did nothing to us. What we did to Iraq is clearly a war crime and the world clearly perceives and understands the implications of that.

All war is justified if you WIN. Be sure, if Germany had won either war, I or II, we would all agree that Germany was totally justified in taking its rightful place in control of Europe and much of the rest of the world. Serbia did nothing to us, either, but since Clinton won in ten and a half weeks, hands down, with a remarkable technology show, no one ever complains that this war was a "war crime."

Our problem is that we keep losing, and losing for a long, long time, lately at least ten years. The world will never excuse losing a war; it will always excuse and celebrate winning a war. Any war.

Don't consider how you want the world to be; consider how it IS. That's hard enough for anyone, since no one involved tells the truth about it. You don't have a long lever or a fulcrum and you cannot move the world. May as well just try to understand it.

I believe I do understand the world quite clearly. And I think what you mean is I should accept the world the way it is, which I certainly do not, nor will I. Because to do so will require that I learn to comfortably ignore the difference between right and wrong, such as would be required to agree with your rather callous observation that, "All war is justified if you WIN."

All wars consist of mass carnage, rape, wanton destruction, and immeasurable misery. Therefore the only winners in a war are those who instigate it, direct it from a distance, and profit from it. Everyone else loses.
 
I believe I do understand the world quite clearly. And I think what you mean is I should accept the world the way it is, which I certainly do not, nor will I. Because to do so will require that I learn to comfortably ignore the difference between right and wrong, such as would be required to agree with your rather callous observation that, "All war is justified if you WIN."

Oh, no, whatever you do, never accept reality.

"Man's reach should exceed his grasp,
Or what's a heaven for?"


Sounds exhausting, all that never accepting what is, but you may be good for another 15-20 years of it; you sound young. After that, remember this rule: if you aren't cynical, you just haven't been paying attention.


All wars consist of mass carnage, rape, wanton destruction, and immeasurable misery. Therefore the only winners in a war are those who instigate it, direct it from a distance, and profit from it. Everyone else loses.

Very true. If you carefully stay in a state of unrelieved indignation, you can probably put an end to all wars. They haven't been going on too long --- no more than 8000 years that we have records about, anyway. I myself have decided to try to figure out what it's all about (it's about intraspecific evolution, just so you know), but I think if you try real, real hard you can keep there from being any more wars. Wouldn't that be nice? I can remember when I used to sing songs about no more war and play the guitar. Maybe you'll have better luck than I did.

I wish you'd work on the Korean penninsula first, if you would be so kind.
 
I believe I do understand the world quite clearly. And I think what you mean is I should accept the world the way it is, which I certainly do not, nor will I. Because to do so will require that I learn to comfortably ignore the difference between right and wrong, such as would be required to agree with your rather callous observation that, "All war is justified if you WIN."
Oh, no, whatever you do, never accept reality.
Says she who wants to ban assault rifles
:lol:
 
Most Senators and Congressmen do not read the bills that they vote on. They have a staff that does that for them, who present their analysis to their boss for consideration.

Yet, you expect that the President Of The United States should ignore hi staff and personally pour over every bill before signing it.

One of the most ridiculous thing that you have posted.’

You are damn right I think that the president – as well as any congressman – should be reading what they vote for. It is absolutely nuts, and an indication of how far the public has slid – when people are willing to defend a politicians vote or support based on ‘they didn’t read it’

The presidents NUMBER ONE JOB is signing legislation right next to running the military. I realize that so much time needs to be taken out making speeches and raising money now but that is not going to convince me that I should give him a pass on actually doing his job.

I can’t fathom how you are able to give your representatives a pass because they hired dumb aids that do not give them all the information to do their job for them but I, for one, am not going to do such a thing. His signature is there. He passed the law when he had the chance of veto. HE IS RESPONSIBLE.


Do you think that Lloyd Blankfein reads the details of every Goldman-Sachs transaction?

You're not this stupid, are you?

Still defending Obama because you don’t think he actually needs to read law that he passes and affects us all and giving him a free pass and then calling ME stupid?

Epic fail.
 

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