Decline ........

[Meister]

I don't think we're in decline. We are still, by far, the wealthiest nation on earth. Our rate of growth has slowed, but we still consume about 25% of the world's energy and we have the strongest military on earth, by a factor of about 13.

Our ideas and culture dominates the globe, and American-designed products represent wealth and luxury. Wealthy people in China don't want Chinese-designed items, they want American products, such as the I-phone or a Michael Kors purse. When that changes, we might actually be in decline.

A lot of economists believe that China will overtake our economy by 2050.

 

[Trajan]

Slavery in New York After the 1827 end of slavery in New York, abolitionists turned to liberating the enslaved in the American South. Years of sectional dispute split the nation into a ...

Slavery after the Civl War was replaced with class agrarian struggle based on race in the South and enforced with segregation and Jim Crow. The unions were crushed by the 1st Great Depression (1893-1897) and child labor was rampant. It required federal Progressivism under TR to end some of the brutal capitalist oppression.

You said that already........ repeating it doesn't lend it any more verisimilitude then it did first time round.

 

[elvis]

Slavery in New York After the 1827 end of slavery in New York, abolitionists turned to liberating the enslaved in the American South. Years of sectional dispute split the nation into a ...

Slavery after the Civl War was replaced with class agrarian struggle based on race in the South and enforced with segregation and Jim Crow. The unions were crushed by the 1st Great Depression (1893-1897) and child labor was rampant. It required federal Progressivism under TR to end some of the brutal capitalist oppression.

You said that already........ repeating it doesn't lend it any more verisimilitude then it did first time round.

what about the third time?

 

[Missourian]

Perhaps but people have only recently realized or admitted that we are in decline.

Much of the decline over the last decade has been covered up with govt spending and low interest rates.
but we have pretty much spent all we can and interest rates have been around nothing for around a decade.

It took the experts how long to admit that this recession was not just an 6 month adjustment?

Folks don't want to believe.

It's easy to convince people all is well when they're predisposed to accept that paradigm.

 

[westwall]

I think uscitizen is right in that we need to learn to live with less. The extent to which that will be necessary depends on how well effective and efficient we can be in using the resources/money we've got. To date we have been exceedingly wasteful; that's going to have to change but frankly I see no signs of that happening any time soon.

As far as decline goes, yeah maybe. But nothing says we can't make changes. Might have to go through a bad time first to re-orient ourselves, but maybe another Lincoln will come along when we need him/her most.

Why do we have to learn to live with less? The rich get ever richer and the tax policies are designed to keep them that way and prevent others from joining their ranks. The collectivists in this government are trying to create a class based society in this country. We rejected that system over 200 years ago.

You should ask yourself why are they doing that...

 

[Trajan]

I don't think we're in decline. We are still, by far, the wealthiest nation on earth. Our rate of growth has slowed, but we still consume about 25% of the world's energy and we have the strongest military on earth, by a factor of about 13.

Our ideas and culture dominates the globe, and American-designed products represent wealth and luxury. Wealthy people in China don't want Chinese-designed items, they want American products, such as the I-phone or a Michael Kors purse. When that changes, we might actually be in decline.

Decline is relative to what you envisioned, what you have, had and where you are going.

As I said in the OP, our decline is part of the arc of every single nation state that has existed.

And let me add as a general note, we are not special in that/this context either, it is what it is, in that this is not some phenomenon, some may argue no, we are not there yet, I just happen to disagree. The road signs are all around us if one looks at the past, the past of those nations states before us. The economy for example, is just a symptom, it always starts with the degradation of identity and society.

And, we are not the only ones, Europe has been beating us to the punch by a decade or 2. This isn't a woe is me thing, its the historical cycle of life *shrugs*

 

[Wiseacre]

I think uscitizen is right in that we need to learn to live with less. The extent to which that will be necessary depends on how well effective and efficient we can be in using the resources/money we've got. To date we have been exceedingly wasteful; that's going to have to change but frankly I see no signs of that happening any time soon.

As far as decline goes, yeah maybe. But nothing says we can't make changes. Might have to go through a bad time first to re-orient ourselves, but maybe another Lincoln will come along when we need him/her most.

Why do we have to learn to live with less? The rich get ever richer and the tax policies are designed to keep them that way and prevent others from joining their ranks. The collectivists in this government are trying to create a class based society in this country. We rejected that system over 200 years ago.

You should ask yourself why are they doing that...

The party is over. For the past 30 years or so America has been going into debt individually and collectively, spending money we don't have. If we want to provide the social programs we have now, we're going to have to find ways to do it more effectively and cheaper. We don't have the money to fund the pensions, the health care, and everything else.

There are no policies I know of that prevent anybody from getting rich, that is nonsense. And I got news for ya, the tax policies in this country are designed to help people get rich if they want to do what is necessary. BTW, are you aware that there is a high turnover in the top 2%, after about 5 years approx 40% have been replaced.

 

[westwall]

I think uscitizen is right in that we need to learn to live with less. The extent to which that will be necessary depends on how well effective and efficient we can be in using the resources/money we've got. To date we have been exceedingly wasteful; that's going to have to change but frankly I see no signs of that happening any time soon.

As far as decline goes, yeah maybe. But nothing says we can't make changes. Might have to go through a bad time first to re-orient ourselves, but maybe another Lincoln will come along when we need him/her most.

Why do we have to learn to live with less? The rich get ever richer and the tax policies are designed to keep them that way and prevent others from joining their ranks. The collectivists in this government are trying to create a class based society in this country. We rejected that system over 200 years ago.

You should ask yourself why are they doing that...

The party is over. For the past 30 years or so America has been going into debt individually and collectively, spending money we don't have. If we want to provide the social programs we have now, we're going to have to find ways to do it more effectively and cheaper. We don't have the money to fund the pensions, the health care, and everything else.

There are no policies I know of that prevent anybody from getting rich, that is nonsense. And I got news for ya, the tax policies in this country are designed to help people get rich if they want to do what is necessary. BTW, are you aware that there is a high turnover in the top 2%, after about 5 years approx 40% have been replaced.

Yes, the GOVERNMENT has been a spendthrift. Socialism doesn't work, that much should be plain to see. Take the country back to a individualist model and make those who can, work. We as a people have an obligation to help those who need it. We do not have an obligation to feed the lazy.

 

[Trajan]

Why do we have to learn to live with less? The rich get ever richer and the tax policies are designed to keep them that way and prevent others from joining their ranks. The collectivists in this government are trying to create a class based society in this country. We rejected that system over 200 years ago.

You should ask yourself why are they doing that...

The party is over. For the past 30 years or so America has been going into debt individually and collectively, spending money we don't have. If we want to provide the social programs we have now, we're going to have to find ways to do it more effectively and cheaper. We don't have the money to fund the pensions, the health care, and everything else.

There are no policies I know of that prevent anybody from getting rich, that is nonsense. And I got news for ya, the tax policies in this country are designed to help people get rich if they want to do what is necessary. BTW, are you aware that there is a high turnover in the top 2%, after about 5 years approx 40% have been replaced.

Yes, the GOVERNMENT has been a spendthrift. Socialism doesn't work, that much should be plain to see. Take the country back to a individualist model and make those who can, work. We as a people have an obligation to help those who need it. We do not have an obligation to feed the lazy.

that paradigm has changed and forever WW. those like us who advocate such are now classified as people who want people to 'go it alone and be left to die' etc etc...

Neither Roosevelt or Truman would recognize today's society regarding what unalloyed entitlements have wrought to our psyche and mores. Roosevelt spoke of the dole as a powerful narcotic that we should be careful of administering.

They also spoke of and believed in the 'melting pot', that to has gone by the wayside.

 

[Avorysuds]

To me the major decline in America began during FDR. Under FDR America’s Government changed into a babysitter. Past the fact that almost all of FDR’s policies failed during his presidency, FDR’s policies laid the groundwork for the Government we have today, and that Government has changed from a babysitter to a parent and is now in transition from a Parent like Government to a Step Parents like Government.

Big board policies take years to fail, not just 2 or 3 years, like 50 years…. Today the debate is how to pay for the policies that were created long ago but we can no longer afford.

What’s interesting is we never get less Government, we always get more, massive amounts of more and yet the “plan” keeps failing. And what gets the blame, not enough Government. Look at all the HC Government does for people yet we needed the ACA? The ACA that is already failing to live up to a single benchmark Obama and Dems set. I don’t want to make this a Dem vs Reps, Reps had Medicare part D under Bush for instance. Reps and Dems have gone out of their way to create dependency that has caused a nationwide decline.

 

[westwall]

The party is over. For the past 30 years or so America has been going into debt individually and collectively, spending money we don't have. If we want to provide the social programs we have now, we're going to have to find ways to do it more effectively and cheaper. We don't have the money to fund the pensions, the health care, and everything else.

There are no policies I know of that prevent anybody from getting rich, that is nonsense. And I got news for ya, the tax policies in this country are designed to help people get rich if they want to do what is necessary. BTW, are you aware that there is a high turnover in the top 2%, after about 5 years approx 40% have been replaced.

Yes, the GOVERNMENT has been a spendthrift. Socialism doesn't work, that much should be plain to see. Take the country back to a individualist model and make those who can, work. We as a people have an obligation to help those who need it. We do not have an obligation to feed the lazy.

that paradigm has changed and forever WW. those like us who advocate such are now classified as people who want people to 'go it alone and be left to die' etc etc...

Neither Roosevelt or Truman would recognize today's society regarding what unalloyed entitlements have wrought to our psyche and mores. Roosevelt spoke of the dole as a powerful narcotic that we should be careful of administering.

They also spoke of and believed in the 'melting pot', that to has gone by the wayside.

Sadly what you say is true.

 

[freedombecki]

And so many have agreed that we are in a decline...we just differ in our understanding as to the reasons why.

Globalization and free trade made it inevitable.
Ther rest of the poor world comes up and we go down.

I saw this coming in the 80's.

The last attempt at globalization led to the fall of the tower of Babel and ultimately resulted in people going back home and speaking languages other nations could not understand.

If history ever repeated itself, those who lose in the globalization game will huff away and make themselves obscure once again. The infrastructure, having lost its foundation of freebies could likely fall flat also, its loser/workers out of the game, and nobody else willing to be so crudely used. The press could declare the world flat again, with no communications crossing the ponds anymore, just hocus-pocus "legends."

Too much unification could lead to permanent divisions.

 

[sparky]

A pity all this Globaloney isn't sold by the pound but...

It basically means we all get to partake in whatever change comes 'round, instead of the pasts demographic pockets of isolated kaos

In the past, our welfare was intricately tied to the market(s) local politicians could manipulate, now they bow down to no local entity, in fact any of them that stumps against the concept is basically condemming his/her constituency to market isolationism

If we are to imply any parallels from the Roman experience , it was that they could not keep a lid on their own globaloney microcosm as it grew

Anyone else think Bernake should wear a toga....?

~CS~

 

[PaulS1950]

We, in the USA, have the power to change what is happening. It is called the initiative process. We can call for change so long as there are the votes to support it. The saddest thing is that americans (small A purposely used) would rather keep what the government gives them instead of standing up and taking their control back. It is easier for them to sit and complain than it is to stand up and take the responsibility for what they do.
You can see it very plainly on these forums. A lot of people complain and argue but rarely do you see an attempt at a solution. When someone does raise a possible solution it is ridiculed and down-played as some form of left/right wing political leveraging.
If you want to complain then bring up a corrective action to go with it. Then discuss the corrective action in a reasonable fashion with logic and facts rather than a flood of emotion. Try to discover what is good and shed the bad of the solution and maybe, just maybe we can actually build something rather than just sit, complain and tear it all down.

 

[SayMyName]

True. It does seem that it is so, with both sides of the political spectrum, or both parties that control the spectrum, bearing equal blame.

I am reminded, thinking of America, of the movie, "Idiocracy."

 

[Foxfyre]

I don't think we're in decline. We are still, by far, the wealthiest nation on earth. Our rate of growth has slowed, but we still consume about 25% of the world's energy and we have the strongest military on earth, by a factor of about 13.

Our ideas and culture dominates the globe, and American-designed products represent wealth and luxury. Wealthy people in China don't want Chinese-designed items, they want American products, such as the I-phone or a Michael Kors purse. When that changes, we might actually be in decline.

Decline is relative to what you envisioned, what you have, had and where you are going.

As I said in the OP, our decline is part of the arc of every single nation state that has existed.

And let me add as a general note, we are not special in that/this context either, it is what it is, in that this is not some phenomenon, some may argue no, we are not there yet, I just happen to disagree. The road signs are all around us if one looks at the past, the past of those nations states before us. The economy for example, is just a symptom, it always starts with the degradation of identity and society.

And, we are not the only ones, Europe has been beating us to the punch by a decade or 2. This isn't a woe is me thing, its the historical cycle of life *shrugs*

Building on your excellent OP, there is one additional factor to consider however.

There has never been a nation in the whole history of the world that was founded for the reasons and on the principles that apply to the USA. We were totally unique, a grand experiment, of a nation in which the government was charged to secure the natural unalienable rights of the people and then the people would be left alone in complete freedom to govern themselves and form whatever sort of society they wished to have.

That concept produced the most free, most innovative, most creative, most prosperous, most generous, most successful nation the world has ever known. And there is no reason to believe that could not continue if the original concept is respected and protected. The USA was not intended to be like any other nation or follow the rules or trends of any other nation.

It has only been the efforts of the greedy and opportunistic to shift more and more power to the government, and wrest more and more power from the people, to make us more and more like other nations, that we have become a nation in decline.

Can we reverse the current trend? I believe we can. But I also believe we are the last generation with the ability to do so.