JimBowie1958
Old Fogey
- Sep 25, 2011
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Seems like a debate based on our ignorance. It may turn out that life can be found on billions of planets and every planet would be unique. If that is the case, each would be able to make the same argument that its existence is proof of a designer
Uh . . . sorry, but you don't understand the fine-tuning problem at all. We already know that our universe can support life. You need to reread the OP and get laced up.
The only "fine tuning" problem we have is the claim of "fine-tuning" coming from the religious zealot with events in the natural world contradicting the zealot's claim.
Au contraire, silly Hollie. Thank you for once again underscoring the scientific ignorance of the typical new atheist rube of slogan speak! The fine-tuned problem and the anthropic principle is widely recognised and discussed in the literature by dozens of atheist scientists. Here's just a small taste of the reality:
Most of the fundamental constants in our theories appear fine-tuned in the sense that if they were altered by only modest amounts, the universe would be qualitatively different, and in many cases unsuitable for the development of life. . . . The emergence of the complex structures capable of supporting intelligent observers seems to be very fragile. The laws of nature form a system that is extremely fine-tuned, and very little in physical law can be altered without destroying the possibility of the development of life as we know it. Were it not for a series of startling coincidences in the precise details of physical law, it seems, humans and similar life-forms would never have come into being. —Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow, The Grand DesignHoyle sums up his findings as follows:
There may be a cosmological constant in the field equations whose value just cancels the effects of the vacuum mass density produced by quantum fluctuations. But to avoid conflict with astronomical observation, this cancellation would have to be accurate to at least 120 decimal places. Why in the world should the cosmological constant be so precisely fine-tuned? —Steven Weinberg, The First Three Minutes: A Modern View of the Origin of the Universe
These six numbers constitute a “recipe” for a universe. Moreover, the outcome is sensitive to their values: if any one of them were to be “untuned,” there would be no stars and no life. Is this tuning just a brute fact, a coincidence? Or is it the providence of a benign Creator? I take the view that it is neither. An infinity of other universes may well exist where the numbers are different. Most would be stillborn or sterile. We could only have emerged (and therefore we naturally now find ourselves) in a universe with the “right” combination. This realization offers a radically new perspective on our universe, on our place in it, and on the nature of physical laws. . . . If you imagine setting up a universe by adjusting six dials, then the tuning must be precise in order to yield a universe that could harbour life. —Martin Rees, Just Six Numbers: The Deep Forces That Shape the Universe
Hoyle realized that this remarkable chain of coincidences—the unusual longevity of beryllium, the existence of an advantageous resonance level in C12 and the nonexistence of a disadvantageous level in O16— were necessary, and remarkably fine-tuned, conditions for our own existence and indeed the existence of any carbon-based life in the universe. These coincidences could, in principle, be traced back to their roots where they would reveal a meticulous fine-tuning between the strengths of the nuclear and electromagnetic interactions along with the relative masses of electrons and nucleons. —John D. Barrow and Frank J. Tipler, The Anthropic Cosmological Principle
Dr. David D. Deutch:
A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintendent has monkeyed with the physics, as well as chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. I do not believe that any physicist who examined the evidence could fail to draw the inference that the laws of nuclear physics have been deliberately designed with regard to the consequences they produce within stars.
Dr. Dennis Scania, the distinguished head of Cambridge University Observatories:
If we nudge one of these constants just a few percent in one direction, stars burn out within a million years of their formation, and there is no time for evolution. If we nudge it a few percent in the other direction, then no elements heavier than helium form. No carbon, no life. Not even any chemistry. No complexity at all.
[. . .]
If anyone claims not to be surprised by the special features that the universe has, he is hiding his head in the sand. These special features ARE surprising and unlikely.
If you change a little bit the laws of nature, or you change a little bit the constants of nature—like the charge on the electron—then the way the universe develops is so changed, it is very likely that intelligent life would not have been able to develop.
Dr. Paul Davies, noted author and professor of theoretical physics at Adelaide University:
The really amazing thing is not that life on Earth is balanced on a knife-edge, but that the entire universe is balanced on a knife-edge, and would be total chaos if any of the natural ‘constants’ were off even slightly. You see, even if you dismiss man as a chance happening, the fact remains that the universe seems unreasonably suited to the existence of life—almost contrived—you might say a ‘put-up job’.
On the other hand Mr. Angry Bible Beater, thank you once again for showing us the dangers of religious extremism and for identifying the hopelessness of fear and superstition.
The cosmos is fine-tuned to permit human life. If any of several fundamental constants were only slightly different, life would be impossible. (This claim is also known as the weak anthropic principle.)
Source:
Ross, Hugh. 1994. Astronomical evidences for a personal, transcendent God. In: The Creation Hypothesis, J. P. Moreland, ed., Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, pp. 141-172.
Response:
CI301: The Anthropic Principle
- The claim assumes life in its present form is a given; it applies not to life but to life only as we know it. The same outcome results if life is fine-tuned to the cosmos.
We do not know what fundamental conditions would rule out any possibility of any life. For all we know, there might be intelligent beings in another universe arguing that if fundamental constants were only slightly different, then the absence of free quarks and the extreme weakness of gravity would make life impossible.
Indeed, many examples of fine-tuning are evidence that life is fine-tuned to the cosmos, not vice versa. This is exactly what evolution proposes.
- If the universe is fine-tuned for life, why is life such an extremely rare part of it?
- Many fine-tuning claims are based on numbers being the "same order of magnitude," but this phrase gets stretched beyond its original meaning to buttress design arguments; sometimes numbers more than one-thousandfold different are called the same order of magnitude (Klee 2002).
How fine is "fine" anyway? That question can only be answered by a human judgment call, which reduces or removes objective value from the anthropic principle argument.
- The fine-tuning claim is weakened by the fact that some physical constants are dependent on others, so the anthropic principle may rest on only a very few initial conditions that are really fundamental (Kane et al. 2000). It is further weakened by the fact that different initial conditions sometimes lead to essentially the same outcomes, as with the initial mass of stars and their formation of heavy metals (Nakamura et al. 1997), or that the tuning may not be very fine, as with the resonance window for helium fusion within the sun (Livio et al. 1989). For all we know, a universe substantially different from ours may be improbable or even impossible.
- If part of the universe were not suitable for life, we would not be here to think about it. There is nothing to rule out the possibility of multiple universes, most of which would be unsuitable for life. We happen to find ourselves in one where life is conveniently possible because we cannot very well be anywhere else.
- Intelligent design is not a logical conclusion of fine tuning. Fine tuning says nothing about motives or methods, which is how design is defined. (The scarcity of life and multi-billion-year delay in it appearing argue against life being a motive.) Fine-tuning, if it exists, may result from other causes, as yet unknown, or for no reason at all (Drange 2000).
- In fact, the anthropic principle is an argument against an omnipotent creator. If God can do anything, he could create life in a universe whose conditions do not allow for it.
You silly twit, you're still prattling the imbecilic misconception of the fine-tuned problem and the anthropic principle mindlessly spouted by new atheist rubes that litter the Internet!
They have absolutely nothing to do with the occurrence or evolution of life as we know it!
They have absolutely nothing to do with the occurrence or evolution of life as we know it!
They have absolutely nothing to do with the occurrence or evolution of life as we know it!
They have absolutely nothing to do with the occurrence or evolution of life as we know it!
They have absolutely nothing to do with the occurrence or evolution of life as we know it!
They have absolutely nothing to do with the occurrence or evolution of life as we know it!
They have absolutely nothing to do with the occurrence or evolution of life as we know it!
They have absolutely nothing to do with the occurrence or evolution of life as we know it!
They have absolutely nothing to do with the occurrence or evolution of life as we know it!
It has to do with the apparent fact that NO ADEQUATE STELLAR NUCLEOSYNTHESIS, HENCE, NO PLANETS, NO ASTRONOMICAL STRUCTURES, NO ELEMENTAL CHEMISTRY WOULD EXIST FOR LIFE IN THE FIRST PLACE WERE THE INITIAL CONDITIONS AND CONSTANTS SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT THEY ARE, YOU SILLY ASS OF AN OBTUSE PILE OF BRICKS.
It has to do with the apparent fact that NO ADEQUATE STELLAR NUCLEOSYNTHESIS, HENCE, NO PLANETS, NO ASTRONOMICAL STRUCTURES, NO ELEMENTAL CHEMISTRY WOULD EXIST FOR LIFE IN THE FIRST PLACE WERE THE INITIAL CONDITIONS AND CONSTANTS SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT THEY ARE, YOU SILLY ASS OF AN OBTUSE PILE OF BRICKS.
It has to do with the apparent fact that NO ADEQUATE STELLAR NUCLEOSYNTHESIS, HENCE, NO PLANETS, NO ASTRONOMICAL STRUCTURES, NO ELEMENTAL CHEMISTRY WOULD EXIST FOR LIFE IN THE FIRST PLACE WERE THE INITIAL CONDITIONS AND CONSTANTS SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT THEY ARE, YOU SILLY ASS OF AN OBTUSE PILE OF BRICKS.
It has to do with the apparent fact that NO ADEQUATE STELLAR NUCLEOSYNTHESIS, HENCE, NO PLANETS, NO ASTRONOMICAL STRUCTURES, NO ELEMENTAL CHEMISTRY WOULD EXIST FOR LIFE IN THE FIRST PLACE WERE THE INITIAL CONDITIONS AND CONSTANTS SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT THEY ARE, YOU SILLY ASS OF AN OBTUSE PILE OF BRICKS.
It has to do with the apparent fact that NO ADEQUATE STELLAR NUCLEOSYNTHESIS, HENCE, NO PLANETS, NO ASTRONOMICAL STRUCTURES, NO ELEMENTAL CHEMISTRY WOULD EXIST FOR LIFE IN THE FIRST PLACE WERE THE INITIAL CONDITIONS AND CONSTANTS SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT THEY ARE, YOU SILLY ASS OF AN OBTUSE PILE OF BRICKS.
It has to do with the apparent fact that NO ADEQUATE STELLAR NUCLEOSYNTHESIS, HENCE, NO PLANETS, NO ASTRONOMICAL STRUCTURES, NO ELEMENTAL CHEMISTRY WOULD EXIST FOR LIFE IN THE FIRST PLACE WERE THE INITIAL CONDITIONS AND CONSTANTS SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT THEY ARE, YOU SILLY ASS OF AN OBTUSE PILE OF BRICKS.
It has to do with the apparent fact that NO ADEQUATE STELLAR NUCLEOSYNTHESIS, HENCE, NO PLANETS, NO ASTRONOMICAL STRUCTURES, NO ELEMENTAL CHEMISTRY WOULD EXIST FOR LIFE IN THE FIRST PLACE WERE THE INITIAL CONDITIONS AND CONSTANTS SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT THEY ARE, YOU SILLY ASS OF AN OBTUSE PILE OF BRICKS.
Repeating this stuff is not going to get anywhere with nitwits that cannot grasp the fact that omnipotence does not mean a being can do anything at all that they want.
Sometimes you just have to scrape the dog shit off your shoe and move on.
