Death to the Middle Class

[rightwinger]

The problem is this is such an amorphous, vague concept. They want to afford a basic standard of living on what they make? How much do they make? How much should be 'enough' to do that? (What a ridiculously arbitrary concept that is). For how many people should it provide for? This is what happens when you define societal roles incorrectly. You end of ridiculous paradoxes where busienss is now suppossed to pay people based on an employee's family size or mortgage payment as oppossed to their value to the company.

Those of you arguing that the middle class is not making enough for a basic standard of living are making the argument, whether you realize it or not that it is the role of business to provide you a standard of living. That is NOT the role of business. Their role is to make money, period. You're role is to use your god given brain to provide for yourself to whatever extent you desire. Making money, enough to become financially independant, is not about working hard. It's about working smart. We complain and complain yet we also are told we only use 10% of our brains and for many that may be generous.

Fact is that the middle class works more hours and is more productive than at any time in history. By claiming hard times,Businesses have intimidated workers to work more hours for less pay and fewer benefits. In these same hard times, executive pay has skyrocketed.

Dude, you're not listening. It isn't about how many hours you work. That isn't the only way to make money. You sir indeed are using less than 10% of your brain if that is the limit of your imagination and how to make money. People work extra hours to maintain the same cash flow not because the system is trying to screw them, but because they refuse to push themselves to their potential. If you dont like that your boss got a raise and you didn't, either justify why you deserve one too or vote with your feet and work for a company that treats people with the fairness you think it should.

First off...people using 10% of their brains is a myth

Your "push yourself to your potential" is nonsense. The fact remains that standards of living have steadilly declined. Couples have to rely on two incomes, forego healthcare, work uncompensated hours all for less pay. Meanwhile executive pay has gone through the roof without a corresponding increase in productivity

 

[Truthmatters]

They will do anything to avoid the facts

 

[Againsheila]

It sure seemed to be the goal of the republican party over the last couple of decades.

Yeah, right, the democrats had nothing to do with it...

Face it, the dems and reps are the two most corrupt parties in the history of our nation, until we come up with a 3rd party, nothing is going to change, the rich will continue to get richer at the expense of the working party.

 

[Bern80]

If you dont like that your boss got a raise and you didn't, either justify why you deserve one too or vote with your feet and work for a company that treats people with the fairness you think it should.

Are you insane? Do you have eyes and ears? Wages are being driven lower and lower right now because there are so many people out of work and desperate for a job - ANY JOB, that it's hard to find anything that pays more than $10 per hour... no matter what it is? You are an idiot. Wages are stagnant and have been for two decades. Are you really saying that American workers are not worth what they used to be even though production is higher than ever? And even though they have more of a workload and responsiblility than ever due to bare bones hiring practices and outsourcing? Are you REALLY saying that CEO's and other executives now are magically worth 400x that of their employees on the front lines who are busting their asses to MAKE THEM THAT MONEY even though those employees get stiffed on bonuses and cost of living raises? Really? Are you really defending that?

Why the fuck can't you stupid libs stop playing the victim for two fucking seconds? You piss an moan about your situation all the while steadfastly refusing to take ANY accountability for your situation or do anything about it. NO ONE OWES YOU A FUCKING JOB.

You're spouting all this crap about higher production and and greater workload. I have to call bullshit. Back it up with some evidence because that is pretty counter intuitive for a down economy. For people to work more people need to consume more and in a down economy people are consuming less.

Morons like yourself only look at the headlines about companies like AIG and think that's how most businesses operate. If that were true far, far more business should have failed. Yes I too took a brief pay cut, but the executives at my company took a bigger one to get us through a tough stretch. THAT is how the bulk of successful businesses are operated.

 

[Againsheila]

If you dont like that your boss got a raise and you didn't, either justify why you deserve one too or vote with your feet and work for a company that treats people with the fairness you think it should.

Are you insane? Do you have eyes and ears? Wages are being driven lower and lower right now because there are so many people out of work and desperate for a job - ANY JOB, that it's hard to find anything that pays more than $10 per hour... no matter what it is? You are an idiot. Wages are stagnant and have been for two decades. Are you really saying that American workers are not worth what they used to be even though production is higher than ever? And even though they have more of a workload and responsiblility than ever due to bare bones hiring practices and outsourcing? Are you REALLY saying that CEO's and other executives now are magically worth 400x that of their employees on the front lines who are busting their asses to MAKE THEM THAT MONEY even though those employees get stiffed on bonuses and cost of living raises? Really? Are you really defending that?

Why the fuck can't you stupid libs stop playing the victim for two fucking seconds? You piss an moan about your situation all the while steadfastly refusing to take ANY accountability for your situation or do anything about it. NO ONE OWES YOU A FUCKING JOB.

You're spouting all this crap about higher production and and greater workload. I have to call bullshit. Back it up with some evidence because that is pretty counter intuitive for a down economy. For people to work more people need to consume more and in a down economy people are consuming less.

Morons like yourself only look at the headlines about companies like AIG and think that's how most businesses operate. If that were true far, far more business should have failed. Yes I too took a brief pay cut, but the executives at my company took a bigger one to get us through a tough stretch. THAT is how the bulk of successful businesses are operated.

You know, it's that time of year, read A Christmas Carol...it's a shame things are still so bad so many years later and that mankind hasn't learned a thing.

 

[rightwinger]

You're spouting all this crap about higher production and and greater workload. I have to call bullshit. Back it up with some evidence because that is pretty counter intuitive for a down economy. For people to work more people need to consume more and in a down economy people are consuming less.

JFK once said "A rising tide lifts all boats" when referring to the economy

In this case a falling tide lowers the workers boat while the executive feels no effect

 

[Againsheila]

then become an executive......make hard choices.....not everyone gets to live where they would like to and do what they would like to....life is hard...it is unfair....if you don't like it do something to change it....

you are where you are through your own choices....

Ah, so the truth finally comes out. Only executives / rich people should be allowed to make ends meet and actually save some of their money and maybe amass a little wealth. Got it. Cause we can ALL be executives. Good lord, you people really are itching to turn this country into the third world. Congrats. By the looks of things we're half way there. Are you really saying that to be able to make ends meet, send your kids to college (any college) and be able to afford health care, it's ok that one would have to work 80 hours a week and three jobs? Who wants to live like that? I don't care how ambitious you are... That is not a life.

well i went from 8 dollars an hour as a carpenter...to paying for college myself...buying a house myself... obtaining health care for my family and saving for college for my two kids...and starting my own business....my point is...stop complaing about what others have and go get what you want....

fucking hell if you all put as much effort into life as you do bitching about it you would be what you want.....

ya i know it is someone elses fault you can't get there....

You know, when you did that minimum wage had a lot more spending power than it does now....and the middleclass was a lot bigger, proportionally than it is now. Plus jobs were a lot more plentiful and paid better and a person just starting out could get a job that was fulltime instead of part time. I know people working 3 parttime jobs and they still can't afford their own apartment. They aren't lazy. Plus, the cost of college has risen dramatically, when you went to school a working person could afford college and an apartment, today they can't. It's either or.......and since people don't want to hire the homeless, it's usually the education that goes by the wayside.

BTW, a college education doesn't mean what it used to, I know several recent college graduates that can't get jobs.

 

[Againsheila]

You're spouting all this crap about higher production and and greater workload. I have to call bullshit. Back it up with some evidence because that is pretty counter intuitive for a down economy. For people to work more people need to consume more and in a down economy people are consuming less.

JFK once said "A rising tide lifts all boats" when referring to the economy

In this case a falling tide lowers the workers boat while the executive feels no effect

Yes, and when he put in a tax cut, his was aimed at the middle class, not the wealthy. HIS actually worked.

 

[Bern80]

Your "push yourself to your potential" is nonsense. The fact remains that standards of living have steadilly declined. Couples have to rely on two incomes, forego healthcare, work uncompensated hours all for less pay. Meanwhile executive pay has gone through the roof without a corresponding increase in productivity

Why is it nonsense (truly brilliant argument by the way)? Are you implying that one should not have to challenge themselves to maintain a standard of living?

It is frustrating as hell to watch our society become so loaded with entitlement mentality pussies like you and Peepers. There are only so many things you in life you have control over. One would think an individual would use the things they CAN control to their fullest potential, but you fucking whiners won't even do that. We have become a society so adverse to actual challenge that we have wooses like you and peepers who curl up in a fetal position and actually play the victim for OTHER people. At some point in your miserable life you are going to have to own up the FACT that the single best way to change your outcomes is for YOU to take take action. Instead the only action you know how to take is fucking finger pointing.

 

[Bern80]

You're spouting all this crap about higher production and and greater workload. I have to call bullshit. Back it up with some evidence because that is pretty counter intuitive for a down economy. For people to work more people need to consume more and in a down economy people are consuming less.

JFK once said "A rising tide lifts all boats" when referring to the economy

In this case a falling tide lowers the workers boat while the executive feels no effect

translation: I am diverting the conversation because I can't back up my bullshit.

 

[rightwinger]

Ah, so the truth finally comes out. Only executives / rich people should be allowed to make ends meet and actually save some of their money and maybe amass a little wealth. Got it. Cause we can ALL be executives. Good lord, you people really are itching to turn this country into the third world. Congrats. By the looks of things we're half way there. Are you really saying that to be able to make ends meet, send your kids to college (any college) and be able to afford health care, it's ok that one would have to work 80 hours a week and three jobs? Who wants to live like that? I don't care how ambitious you are... That is not a life.

well i went from 8 dollars an hour as a carpenter...to paying for college myself...buying a house myself... obtaining health care for my family and saving for college for my two kids...and starting my own business....my point is...stop complaing about what others have and go get what you want....

fucking hell if you all put as much effort into life as you do bitching about it you would be what you want.....

ya i know it is someone elses fault you can't get there....

You know, when you did that minimum wage had a lot more spending power than it does now....and the middleclass was a lot bigger, proportionally than it is now. Plus jobs were a lot more plentiful and paid better and a person just starting out could get a job that was fulltime instead of part time. I know people working 3 parttime jobs and they still can't afford their own apartment. They aren't lazy. Plus, the cost of college has risen dramatically, when you went to school a working person could afford college and an apartment, today they can't. It's either or.......and since people don't want to hire the homeless, it's usually the education that goes by the wayside.

BTW, a college education doesn't mean what it used to, I know several recent college graduates that can't get jobs.

I was able to pay for 4 years of college working minimum wage jobs. $2 an hour part time paid for my tuition, room and board. I came out of college debt free and immediately started saving for a house.
Kids today don't have a chance. After paying off $70-80K in student loans they need to save another $80K to buy a house. With available jobs for graduates being temp or part time, its hard to get on a good financial footing

 

[Bern80]

well i went from 8 dollars an hour as a carpenter...to paying for college myself...buying a house myself... obtaining health care for my family and saving for college for my two kids...and starting my own business....my point is...stop complaing about what others have and go get what you want....

fucking hell if you all put as much effort into life as you do bitching about it you would be what you want.....

ya i know it is someone elses fault you can't get there....

You know, when you did that minimum wage had a lot more spending power than it does now....and the middleclass was a lot bigger, proportionally than it is now. Plus jobs were a lot more plentiful and paid better and a person just starting out could get a job that was fulltime instead of part time. I know people working 3 parttime jobs and they still can't afford their own apartment. They aren't lazy. Plus, the cost of college has risen dramatically, when you went to school a working person could afford college and an apartment, today they can't. It's either or.......and since people don't want to hire the homeless, it's usually the education that goes by the wayside.

BTW, a college education doesn't mean what it used to, I know several recent college graduates that can't get jobs.

I was able to pay for 4 years of college working minimum wage jobs. $2 an hour part time paid for my tuition, room and board. I came out of college debt free and immediately started saving for a house.
Kids today don't have a chance. After paying off $70-80K in student loans they need to save another $80K to buy a house. With available jobs for graduates being temp or part time, its hard to get on a good financial footing

Thank you for illustrating my point so well right.

The only reason those fresh out of college adults are going to be fucked is if they adopt your defeatist attittude as oppossed to using that well molded brain they now have. First of all why does someone have to pay off a loan before they buy a house? Second, why would someone have to save 80k to buy said house?

 

[Big Black Dog]

We in this country have screwed ourselves. Please let me explain. There was a time in this country when Mama stayed home and looked after the kids and did the household things that were necessary for harmony within the family. Dad was the one who went to work and earned the living that supported his family. There were no credit cards. If there was something that you wanted, you saved up the money for it and when you had the money saved, you bought whatever it was that you wanted. There was peace and harmony within the American family. Somewhere along the way, that picture changed. All of a sudden, Mom entered the work force and both parents were working. Nobody home watching the kids. They were either old enough to tend to themselves or somebody else watched them while Mom went to work. Suddenly the family had two incomes and twice the spending power. Along came credit cards and people began to live outside of their means. With the advent of credit cards, a person could live a higher lifestyle and have more "toys" and not have to save up to make the purchases that supported the new lifestyle. All was well because Mom was working, there was two incomes and more cash flow. Then people began to live outside of their means. Bigger fancier houses were purchased. Much finer cars. Fantasy vacations. You name it. The middle class American began to live the high life and in doing so, eventually was not easily able to make ends meet any longer. Where there was once peace and harmony within the family unit, now there was financial conflict. Bigger salaries were demanded from employers. Unions fought for bigger and bigger benefits and salaries for their members until things like the collapse of the car industry came about because of greed. We destroyed ourselves financially. It isn't that companies don't pay a fair wage for the work that is produced. It is because people demand to live on a lifestyle plateau that is far about their ability to earn the income to support it and we blame other people for not living within our means. In my humble opinion, this is one of the biggest problems in America today. It's called greed.

 

[Political Junky]

Two incomes became essential in the "80s after Reagan gave to the rich and screwed the unions.

 

[sealybobo]

We in this country have screwed ourselves. Please let me explain. There was a time in this country when Mama stayed home and looked after the kids and did the household things that were necessary for harmony within the family. Dad was the one who went to work and earned the living that supported his family. There were no credit cards. If there was something that you wanted, you saved up the money for it and when you had the money saved, you bought whatever it was that you wanted. There was peace and harmony within the American family. Somewhere along the way, that picture changed. All of a sudden, Mom entered the work force and both parents were working. Nobody home watching the kids. They were either old enough to tend to themselves or somebody else watched them while Mom went to work. Suddenly the family had two incomes and twice the spending power. Along came credit cards and people began to live outside of their means. With the advent of credit cards, a person could live a higher lifestyle and have more "toys" and not have to save up to make the purchases that supported the new lifestyle. All was well because Mom was working, there was two incomes and more cash flow. Then people began to live outside of their means. Bigger fancier houses were purchased. Much finer cars. Fantasy vacations. You name it. The middle class American began to live the high life and in doing so, eventually was not easily able to make ends meet any longer. Where there was once peace and harmony within the family unit, now there was financial conflict. Bigger salaries were demanded from employers. Unions fought for bigger and bigger benefits and salaries for their members until things like the collapse of the car industry came about because of greed. We destroyed ourselves financially. It isn't that companies don't pay a fair wage for the work that is produced. It is because people demand to live on a lifestyle plateau that is far about their ability to earn the income to support it and we blame other people for not living within our means. In my humble opinion, this is one of the biggest problems in America today. It's called greed.

Nice distraction from the issue at hand. Some of what you say is very true and some isn't, but none of it addresses the issue of fixing the middle class.

That means at least 90% of us employed and wages up.

That means back like it was in the 90's.

And no breaking unions. Labor needs a seat at the table. Union numbers are dismal.

Fix the illegal employer problem, because if there aren't enough jobs for us Americans, then wages won't go up.

And fix our trade agreements. We sent too many jobs overseas. Some of those jobs may never come back. But lets stem the tide. Every other country does protectionism of their domestic industries. Only the US doesn't. And we are the only country that doesn't give national healthcare and/or a public option.

We sent too many jobs and companies overseas. We need to re regulate all this. If they don't operate in America, no tax breaks. We all know these things are going on.

Non union corporations aren't sharing with their staff like they should. The people at the top are getting all the profits. Hell, they don't even care if there are profits, they still get theirs. Being paid millions for leaving after only working for 5 years. The rich think we aren't worth what we are paid but they want to get paid millions for failure.

Give everyone a break on their mortgages and tax breaks on our 401k's.

And the GOP will fight every one of these solutions.

 

[sealybobo]

Two incomes became essential in the "80s after Reagan gave to the rich and screwed the unions.

I heard the rich used feminism to screw the masses. They basically got double the work out of us now for basically the same pay. Because what you and your spouse produce is basically what your dad produced by himself in the 70's and early 80's.

 

[rightwinger]

Two incomes became essential in the "80s after Reagan gave to the rich and screwed the unions.

I heard the rich used feminism to screw the masses. They basically got double the work out of us now for basically the same pay. Because what you and your spouse produce is basically what your dad produced by himself in the 70's and early 80's.

Its not what he produced but his buying power. In the 70s you could buy a house, car, healthcare, kids education....all on one salary

 

[JW Frogen]

See, I make this argument all the time. (No one listens because I am a bigger asshole in real life than on forums.)

How are we wealthier now?

For fuck sake my wife's grandmother talks about the houses she bought for cash!!!!!!!!!!

I am on a fucking 30 year mortgage for a shack in the Deadwood of Western Australia.

And they were just working class stiffs.

She is even stiffer now.

 

[rightwinger]

You know, when you did that minimum wage had a lot more spending power than it does now....and the middleclass was a lot bigger, proportionally than it is now. Plus jobs were a lot more plentiful and paid better and a person just starting out could get a job that was fulltime instead of part time. I know people working 3 parttime jobs and they still can't afford their own apartment. They aren't lazy. Plus, the cost of college has risen dramatically, when you went to school a working person could afford college and an apartment, today they can't. It's either or.......and since people don't want to hire the homeless, it's usually the education that goes by the wayside.

BTW, a college education doesn't mean what it used to, I know several recent college graduates that can't get jobs.

I was able to pay for 4 years of college working minimum wage jobs. $2 an hour part time paid for my tuition, room and board. I came out of college debt free and immediately started saving for a house.
Kids today don't have a chance. After paying off $70-80K in student loans they need to save another $80K to buy a house. With available jobs for graduates being temp or part time, its hard to get on a good financial footing

Thank you for illustrating my point so well right.

The only reason those fresh out of college adults are going to be fucked is if they adopt your defeatist attittude as oppossed to using that well molded brain they now have. First of all why does someone have to pay off a loan before they buy a house? Second, why would someone have to save 80k to buy said house?

You have to pay off your loan because lenders look at your debt burden before giving you a mortgage. If you make $40,000 and have a $700 a month student loan to pay, its hard to qualify for more debt.
If you have to have 25% down payment you need about $80K for downpayment and closing costs

 

[Toro]

The "death" of the middle class is vastly over-rated.

The difference between those defined by income as middle class and those who are not has changed something like -2% over the past 30 years, meaning that the proportion of those defined as middle class has decreased by ~2%.