David Greggory thumbs his nose at the law, yet....

[Ravi]

It's funny that the OP and many of our other USMB nutters are more concerned over this than they are over where William Spengler got the guns that he used to kill the fire fighters.

I'm a poster not an investigative reporter. I read or hear the news and share an opinion. If you would like to discuss the firefighter story feel free to post in one of the threads addressing that story. Myself I haven't posted in those threads because I don't know the details of the story beyond the basics.

In short..... fuck you very much

Ravi's exactly right, so back atchya.

If you're "not an investigative reporter"... then how do you think you know what David Gregory "deserves" or that he "thumbed his nose at the law"?

Busted.

 

[bripat9643]

At the current rates, gun deaths should hit around 33,000 annually in 2015 while traffic fatalities should decrease to around 32,000, according to Bloomberg estimates.

2/3 of your "gun deaths" are the result of suicides. That has nothing to do with "gun violence." If someone wants to off himself with a gun, I don't have a problem with it. Probably more people use prescription drugs to kill themselves that use guns.

Furthermore, gun related homicides have been declining rapidly ever since the early 1990s. They are decreasing, not increasing.

 

[bripat9643]

If present trends continue, there will be more people killed by gun violence in the US in two years than by traffic accidents. Does that not define the sickness in our culture? And yet the gun nuts want even more guns out there.

More bullshit from Rocks in the Head. There were 33,000 traffic fatalities last year. There were only 9000 people killed by guns. The rate for traffic fatalities will probably never get as low as 9000 unless people quite driving cars.

There were over 30,000 gun related deaths last year.

2/3rds of them were suicides. There were less than 10,000 gun related homicides.

Suicides are of no interest in this debate.

 

[Pogo]

More bullshit from Rocks in the Head. There were 33,000 traffic fatalities last year. There were only 9000 people killed by guns. The rate for traffic fatalities will probably never get as low as 9000 unless people quite driving cars.

There were over 30,000 gun related deaths last year.

2/3rds of them were suicides. There were less than 10,000 gun related homicides.

Suicides are of no interest in this debate.

ooooh, less than 10,000! Ain't that progress.

In 2011, Canada had 144, even with our proximital influence. Australia had 59, Japan had 47. the UK had fourteen. New Zealand: ten. Morrocco: one.

We had Nine thousand three hundred sixty-nine (9,369) -- more than countries six through 46 combined.

"We're number four! We're number four!"

 

[bripat9643]

There were over 30,000 gun related deaths last year.

2/3rds of them were suicides. There were less than 10,000 gun related homicides.

Suicides are of no interest in this debate.

ooooh, less than 10,000! Ain't that progress.

In 2011, Canada had 144, even with our proximital influence. Australia had 59, Japan had 47. the UK had fourteen. New Zealand: ten. Morrocco: one.

We had Nine thousand three hundred sixty-nine (9,369) -- more than countries six through 46 combined.

"We're number four! We're number four!"

Our murder rate is higher than for most industrialized countries because of the children of unwed mothers and because we have large populations of immigrants who come from violent countries like Mexico. 75% of all the inmates in state penitentiaries are the children of unwed mothers. So you can blame welfare and illegitimacy for a big part of the problem.

Note that Mexico directly to our South has strict gun control laws, but it has a murder rate 5 times higher than ours. 25,000 people are murdered in Mexico every year.

So much for the idea of gun control reducing gun deaths.

I haven't notice any liberals on a crusade to do anything about the problem of illegitimacy in this country.

 

[Pogo]

2/3rds of them were suicides. There were less than 10,000 gun related homicides.

Suicides are of no interest in this debate.

ooooh, less than 10,000! Ain't that progress.

In 2011, Canada had 144, even with our proximital influence. Australia had 59, Japan had 47. the UK had fourteen. New Zealand: ten. Morrocco: one.

We had Nine thousand three hundred sixty-nine (9,369) -- more than countries six through 46 combined.

"We're number four! We're number four!"

Our murder rate is higher than for most industrialized countries because of the children of unwed mothers and because we have large populations of immigrants who come from violent countries like Mexico. 75% of all the inmates in state penitentiaries are the children of unwed mothers. So you can blame welfare and illegitimacy for a big part of the problem.

Note that Mexico directly to our South has strict gun control laws, but it has a murder rate 5 times higher than ours. 25,000 people are murdered in Mexico every year.

So much for the idea of gun control reducing gun deaths.

I haven't notice any liberals on a crusade to do anything about the problem of illegitimacy in this country.

::guffaw:: seriously?? And this is based on.... what? some flamer talk show hustler?
Desperation stretch #156. Seems the barrel is bottomless.

In the U.S., nearly 40 percent of births were to unmarried women in 2007

US gun homicides, 2011: 9,369

46 percent in Denmark...

Danish gun homicides, 2011: 14

55 percent in Sweden...

Swedish gun homicides, 2011: 58

In Iceland, for example, 66 percent of births were to unmarried women...

Icelandic gun homicides, 2011: Zero

So our unwed children rate is lower and our gun homicides higher. Maybe there's an inverse relationship? Let's go there.

Unlike countries like the U.S. and those in Europe, Japan has one of the lowest rates of non-marital births, at just 2 percent.

Japanese gun homicides, 2011: 47

(homicide data ibid; marriage data from here)
==================================================
Dog no hunt. Theory fail.
Thanks for playing and be sure to play the Rash Generalizations board game at home.

... Next?

 

[asterism]

ooooh, less than 10,000! Ain't that progress.

In 2011, Canada had 144, even with our proximital influence. Australia had 59, Japan had 47. the UK had fourteen. New Zealand: ten. Morrocco: one.

We had Nine thousand three hundred sixty-nine (9,369) -- more than countries six through 46 combined.

"We're number four! We're number four!"

Our murder rate is higher than for most industrialized countries because of the children of unwed mothers and because we have large populations of immigrants who come from violent countries like Mexico. 75% of all the inmates in state penitentiaries are the children of unwed mothers. So you can blame welfare and illegitimacy for a big part of the problem.

Note that Mexico directly to our South has strict gun control laws, but it has a murder rate 5 times higher than ours. 25,000 people are murdered in Mexico every year.

So much for the idea of gun control reducing gun deaths.

I haven't notice any liberals on a crusade to do anything about the problem of illegitimacy in this country.

::guffaw:: seriously?? And this is based on.... what? some flamer talk show hustler?
Desperation stretch #156. Seems the barrel is bottomless.


US gun homicides, 2011: 9,369


Danish gun homicides, 2011: 14


Swedish gun homicides, 2011: 58

In Iceland, for example, 66 percent of births were to unmarried women...

Icelandic gun homicides, 2011: Zero

So our unwed children rate is lower and our gun homicides higher. Maybe there's an inverse relationship? Let's go there.

Unlike countries like the U.S. and those in Europe, Japan has one of the lowest rates of non-marital births, at just 2 percent.

Japanese gun homicides, 2011: 47

(homicide data ibid; marriage data from here)
==================================================
Dog no hunt. Theory fail.
Thanks for playing and be sure to play the Rash Generalizations board game at home.

... Next?

Switzerland has a high rate of gun ownership and a very low crime rate.

Guns in Switzerland: Facts, Figures and Firearm Law

 

[Pogo]

Switzerland has a high rate of gun ownership and a very low crime rate.

Guns in Switzerland: Facts, Figures and Firearm Law

Right. So it's not the sheer number of firearms all by itself either.

It's a fallacious trap to imagine we can reduce a complex problem to a facile one-dimensional issue, whether it's sheer number of guns, or "unwed mothers" or what the laws are or aren't. That's why it's also delusional to attack it by throwing laws at it. This is a complex dynamic and needs to be grokked, not just appeased with window dressing.

 

[asterism]

Switzerland has a high rate of gun ownership and a very low crime rate.

Guns in Switzerland: Facts, Figures and Firearm Law

Right. So it's not the sheer number of firearms all by itself either.

It's a fallacious trap to imagine we can reduce a complex problem to a facile one-dimensional issue, whether it's sheer number of guns, or "unwed mothers" or what the laws are or aren't. That's why it's also delusional to attack it by throwing laws at it. This is a complex dynamic and needs to be grokked, not just appeased with window dressing.

I agree.

The calls for banning guns are silly and ineffective but it makes the advocates feel better.

 

[Pogo]

Switzerland has a high rate of gun ownership and a very low crime rate.

Guns in Switzerland: Facts, Figures and Firearm Law

Right. So it's not the sheer number of firearms all by itself either.

It's a fallacious trap to imagine we can reduce a complex problem to a facile one-dimensional issue, whether it's sheer number of guns, or "unwed mothers" or what the laws are or aren't. That's why it's also delusional to attack it by throwing laws at it. This is a complex dynamic and needs to be grokked, not just appeased with window dressing.

I agree.

The calls for banning guns are silly and ineffective but it makes the advocates feel better.

The laws themselves are harmless IMO but the danger is they take our eye off the ball of the real driver of the problem, which is our gun culture. Laws are like the padlock on your shed -- they keep out the honest people. Striking at symptoms while ignoring the disease. That carries the danger of a false sense of security - "Good, we passed these laws, we're safe now" .... while obliviously ignoring all the reasons we passed the laws in the first place. And we go on with our assault mentality and then wonder why we have assault.

We can't deal with a deep-set problem by just passing laws against it. We have to strike at the root. There's a vast difference between things that don't happen because they're illegal, and things that don't happen because people don't have the urge to do them. When we start addressing that we'll start making some progress.

 

[bripat9643]

::guffaw:: seriously?? And this is based on.... what? some flamer talk show hustler?
Desperation stretch #156. Seems the barrel is bottomless.


US gun homicides, 2011: 9,369


Danish gun homicides, 2011: 14


Swedish gun homicides, 2011: 58

In Iceland, for example, 66 percent of births were to unmarried women...

Icelandic gun homicides, 2011: Zero

So our unwed children rate is lower and our gun homicides higher. Maybe there's an inverse relationship? Let's go there.

Unlike countries like the U.S. and those in Europe, Japan has one of the lowest rates of non-marital births, at just 2 percent.

Japanese gun homicides, 2011: 47

(homicide data ibid; marriage data from here)
==================================================
Dog no hunt. Theory fail.
Thanks for playing and be sure to play the Rash Generalizations board game at home.

... Next?

You're comparing the number of homicides, not the homicide rate, numskull. You also failed to address the fact that 75% of inmates in state penitentiaries are illegitimate children. That means most of them grew up in families where the mother was on welfare and there was never a father to be seen.

You gave the illegitimacy rate of only one other country, Iceland. How is the homicide rate in countries where you haven't stated the illegitimacy rate relevant? You also gave one example that contradicts your point: Japan. It has low homicide rate and a low illegitimacy rate. The illegitimacy rate in Mexico is 38 %, and their homicide rate is 5 times higher than ours.

Dominican Republic:

Homicide rate: 25/100,000 - six times higher than ours
Illegitimacy rate - 63%​

El Salvador

Homicide rate: 69/100,000 - Fifteen times higher than ours
Illegitimacy rate - 73 %​

Jamaica:

Homicide rate: 52.2/100,000 - Eleven times higher than ours
Illegitimacy rate - 86 %​

Note: none of these countries have high rates of gun ownership. Most of the population is too poor to purchase a firearm. Also, Mexico has strict gun control laws. Your proposed solution seems to be utterly ineffective there.

 

[Pogo]

You gave the illegitimacy rate of only one other country, Iceland. How is the homicide rate in countries where you haven't stated the illegitimacy rate relevant?

What the hell is wrong with you? Every one of those countries' out-of-wedlock rate is listed, in line. That's why there's a link to where I got them.
Stripping them out of the quote doesn't mean they never existed
Is reading like cancer in your bubble? Something you go to a clinic to get rid of??
Ai-yi-yi...

 

[uscitizen]

Kinda reminds me of pill poppin Limbaugh and his doctors Viagra.

In america you get as much justice as you can afford.

 

[asterism]

Right. So it's not the sheer number of firearms all by itself either.

It's a fallacious trap to imagine we can reduce a complex problem to a facile one-dimensional issue, whether it's sheer number of guns, or "unwed mothers" or what the laws are or aren't. That's why it's also delusional to attack it by throwing laws at it. This is a complex dynamic and needs to be grokked, not just appeased with window dressing.

I agree.

The calls for banning guns are silly and ineffective but it makes the advocates feel better.

The laws themselves are harmless IMO but the danger is they take our eye off the ball of the real driver of the problem, which is our gun culture. Laws are like the padlock on your shed -- they keep out the honest people. Striking at symptoms while ignoring the disease. That carries the danger of a false sense of security - "Good, we passed these laws, we're safe now" .... while obliviously ignoring all the reasons we passed the laws in the first place. And we go on with our assault mentality and then wonder why we have assault.

We can't deal with a deep-set problem by just passing laws against it. We have to strike at the root. There's a vast difference between things that don't happen because they're illegal, and things that don't happen because people don't have the urge to do them. When we start addressing that we'll start making some progress.

What do you think is "the root" and how do you propose changing things?

 

[bripat9643]

You gave the illegitimacy rate of only one other country, Iceland. How is the homicide rate in countries where you haven't stated the illegitimacy rate relevant?

What the hell is wrong with you? Every one of those countries' out-of-wedlock rate is listed, in line. That's why there's a link to where I got them.
Stripping them out of the quote doesn't mean they never existed
Is reading like cancer in your bubble? Something you go to a clinic to get rid of??
Ai-yi-yi...

I see, it was in the link you included. I hardly noticed it.

Here's your explanation from your link:

Sociologists say that the rising rate of unwed mothers reflects a lackadaisical attitude toward the tradition of marriage in Europe and in the U.S. The report didn't look at cohabitation rates, so it's impossible to tell how many of these unwed mothers in 2007 were actually living with the fathers of their children.

"The Scandinavian countries have long had a tradition of living together outside of marriage," said Andrew Cherlin, a professor of public policy at Johns Hopkins University and the author of "The Marriage-Go-Round: The State of Marriage and the Family in America Today."

so illegitimacy in Scandinavian doesn't mean nearly the same thing as it does in the U.S. where it means a child growing up without a father and with a mother on welfare. In Scandinavian, the parents are still living together. They just haven't bothered to make it official.

No comparison. You FAIL.

 

[GHook93]

This poor kid sat in jail for a week with a bail of 50000 over a FAKE ammo belt.
Bail Lowered For Former Fitchburg Student Who Wore Fake Ammo Belt On Campus « CBS Boston

Then we had the marine in Mexican prison for bullshit and several on the left said he "got what he deserved for being stupid"

When will Greggory "get what he deserves?"

Justice and law my ass

And this guy sends his kid to a school where they have eleven (11) armed guards!!! So he is for protecting his PRIVILEGED kids with armed guards but the kids of working class losers shouldn't be afforded the same protections or even a lesser extent protection!

 

[Pogo]

You gave the illegitimacy rate of only one other country, Iceland. How is the homicide rate in countries where you haven't stated the illegitimacy rate relevant?

What the hell is wrong with you? Every one of those countries' out-of-wedlock rate is listed, in line. That's why there's a link to where I got them.
Stripping them out of the quote doesn't mean they never existed
Is reading like cancer in your bubble? Something you go to a clinic to get rid of??
Ai-yi-yi...

Nope. I don't see an illegitimacy rate for Sweden or Denmark.

Congratulations. You are officially so dense as to be the first poster on my Ignore list. Piss off.

 

[bripat9643]

Congratulations. You are officially so dense as to be the first poster on my Ignore list. Piss off.

Wow, I'm so disappointed!

Note: I read your post more closely and revised my response, not that I give a flying fuck.

 

[Pogo]

This poor kid sat in jail for a week with a bail of 50000 over a FAKE ammo belt.
Bail Lowered For Former Fitchburg Student Who Wore Fake Ammo Belt On Campus « CBS Boston

Then we had the marine in Mexican prison for bullshit and several on the left said he "got what he deserved for being stupid"

When will Greggory "get what he deserves?"

Justice and law my ass

And this guy sends his kid to a school where they have eleven (11) armed guards!!! So he is for protecting his PRIVILEGED kids with armed guards but the kids of working class losers shouldn't be afforded the same protections or even a lesser extent protection!

I see where you're going with the hypocrisy issue but it really doesn't apply. A TV news talking head isn't (or shouldn't be) voicing his own personal view, but the view of some constituency of the public. In this case Gregory may advocate for the side of the gun control constituency. Obviously those people can't be there in the studio to ask those questions, so in that role he questions on their behalf.

So to establish this hypocrisy you'd have to show that everyone in the public who holds that position, also sends their kids to schools with armed guards. Which is not that rare anyway unfortunately, but I'm afraid you've drawn a false equivalency.

 

[Pogo]

I agree.

The calls for banning guns are silly and ineffective but it makes the advocates feel better.

The laws themselves are harmless IMO but the danger is they take our eye off the ball of the real driver of the problem, which is our gun culture. Laws are like the padlock on your shed -- they keep out the honest people. Striking at symptoms while ignoring the disease. That carries the danger of a false sense of security - "Good, we passed these laws, we're safe now" .... while obliviously ignoring all the reasons we passed the laws in the first place. And we go on with our assault mentality and then wonder why we have assault.

We can't deal with a deep-set problem by just passing laws against it. We have to strike at the root. There's a vast difference between things that don't happen because they're illegal, and things that don't happen because people don't have the urge to do them. When we start addressing that we'll start making some progress.

What do you think is "the root" and how do you propose changing things?

Yeah, that's the million dollar question, isn't it? I touched on it with the phrase "gun culture" and Bob Costas did too at the beginning of this month, and he was immediately pounced on by gun nuts trying to redefine his commentary into a rant on "gun control", which it never was. And I get the same thing here; a lot of voices try to distract away from the examination nobody wants to have, about motivations. And then trolls like Finger-boy bring in irrelevant crap. I fear it's all intended to break down the dialogue drown it in rhetorical noise.

I sure don't have the answers but I think I do have the questions. I've peppered some observations from others and ruminations of my own around the board... here's one. Here's another. And somewhere I noted I'm sympathetic to Wayne LaPierre's point about violence in movies and games and desensitization, yet that doesn't hold up as a correlation in, say, Japan, where they have the same media, and yet I still can't believe it's a healthy thing for the psyche.

I dunno. It's the tip of the iceberg but we have to start somewhere.

On top of that, a couple of other posters have made strong points about Big Pharma and antidepressants, and that seems another ingredient that can't be ignored. I'll have to look those up when I have more time but I've got to go places and I see trolls waking up.

Maybe that's a start. Thanks for the reasoned and rational responses. That's what we need.

(/offtopic)