Darwin vs DNA

[InDoctriNation]

Here is your quote: "They are not perfectly symmetric, so you can rule out God crafting each individual snowflake. If He was crafting each one, they would be perfect."

This statement of yours implies that I can rule out god having crafted anything that isn't perfect. So God crafts imperfect humans, but if he was to try his hand at crafting snowflakes they would all be perfect? You're not making a lot of sense here...

But that is beside the point. Your argument boils down to one big argument from ignorance. You can't think of any way that DNA could have arisen through natural processes and declare it impossible (with no evidence to make such a declaration), therefore God did it. If we were having this debate 1,000 years ago, you would be arguing that it's impossible for snowflakes to form such complex, intricate structures without the hand of god being directly involved. Natural explanations have always supplanted supernatural explanations throughout history, and it has never come to pass that a supernatural explanations has either been upheld or supplanted the natural explanation. You are on the losing side of history here, not that you would accept the natural explanation in this case if it slapped you in the face, anyways.

Geez, you're just being obstinate.
God does not create each snowflake. He created the environment that produces them, and his system works perfectly in creating snowflakes. Each flake takes the perfect form for maximum efficiency and effectiveness for its particular journey. At any given time it is perfectly formed for its environment, ie, a wind gust, or drop in temperature. Before they hit earth they may bump into each other, attach to each other, float for awhile in a breeze, nevertheless, they capitulate to gravity and do their job perfectly.
There is no rule that insists that snowflakes be perfectly symmetrical, just as there is no rule that oysters have to produce a perfectly symmetric pearl to accomplish it's goal.

As a fan of quantum physics, I can think of all kinds of ways for things to happen. As a fan of logic, there is no way that you can convince me that DNA became complex through billions of years of evolving, when I know and science knows that complex encoding existed from the beginning.

Your statements imply that DNA required evolution to become complex. It simply did not.
After billions of years of evolving, you still can't produce what God started out with.

Throughout history man has continually adjusted his explanation of the natural, to conform to the latest information available.

The supernatural told us the earth was round. How long was it before man supplanted his flat earth explanation for the horizon, to accommodate the supernatural fact that it wasn't?

You are still not providing any justification for your claim that DNA could not have had simple beginnings. Can you please provide a scienctific source that argues that "complex coding existed from the beginning." You say that science knows this, but you provide no sources that scientific consensus has reached this position.

I love how you say that as a fan of logic, there is no way I could convince you that DNA became complex through billions of years of evolution. That's about the most contradictory statement anyone could make.

One giant "god of the gaps" argument from ignorance. If that's all you've got, I'm done wasting my time here.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The problem is this: TIR does not know the other diminesions, much less to be able to explain intelligently the one we inhabit now.

Leave it to God, TIR, and you worry about your own salvation.

 

[The Irish Ram]

You've got nothing and you know it. You've googled your brains out trying to find some thing to refute what I've said and you can't.

You are still not providing any justification for your claim that DNA could not have had simple beginnings.

Yes indeed I have. I used your own chain of evidence to prove it. Again, amoeba. What your big fat evolved brain thought was a simple beginning, is none other than a complex digitally encoded living thing. Nothing simple about amoeba DNA.
You on the other hand have provided no justification for your claim that DNA DID have a simple beginning. You keep pretending that your little amoeba was simple in the beginning, even though we know that not to be the case. Prove your simpleness.
So,
Go find me an amoeba that had no digital code. Find a simple one for me and then explain how long it took for that one to become the one you put at the beginning of your origin of life chain LOL.

As far as what I know about dimensions? More than you.
Tell me about this new theory of "curled up" dimensions, that your esteemed scientific minds of the day, have deduced. Did YOU know they were curled up?? Can dimensions be curled?

 

[The Irish Ram]

What's a matter Jake? Have you reached the end of your "scientific knowledge" of dimensions?
Are ya stumped? Tell me about these "curled up" dimensions.
You seem to think that you know more than I do. Enlighten me about the curls.

 

[Hollie]

Geez, you're just being obstinate.
God does not create each snowflake. He created the environment that produces them, and his system works perfectly in creating snowflakes. Each flake takes the perfect form for maximum efficiency and effectiveness for its particular journey. At any given time it is perfectly formed for its environment, ie, a wind gust, or drop in temperature. Before they hit earth they may bump into each other, attach to each other, float for awhile in a breeze, nevertheless, they capitulate to gravity and do their job perfectly.
There is no rule that insists that snowflakes be perfectly symmetrical, just as there is no rule that oysters have to produce a perfectly symmetric pearl to accomplish it's goal.

As a fan of quantum physics, I can think of all kinds of ways for things to happen. As a fan of logic, there is no way that you can convince me that DNA became complex through billions of years of evolving, when I know and science knows that complex encoding existed from the beginning.

Your statements imply that DNA required evolution to become complex. It simply did not.
After billions of years of evolving, you still can't produce what God started out with.

Throughout history man has continually adjusted his explanation of the natural, to conform to the latest information available.

The above is so silly. You're assigning some rather strange attributes to snowflakes.

What exactly is the "perfect form for maximum efficiency and effectiveness for its particular journey". That's poetic but nonsensical.

What exactly is meant by "At any given time it is perfectly formed for its environment"?

Perfectly formed for what?



"Before they hit earth they may bump into each other, attach to each other, float for awhile in a breeze, nevertheless, they capitulate to gravity and do their job perfectly."

What job are they doing?




"God does not create each snowflake. He created the environment that produces them..."

I can assume you will also agree that the gods created the environment that produces tornadoes and earthquakes.

Things are the way they are because God wants them precisely this way and this includes a nasty and capricious nature which will kill people via floods and tornadoes and fires and earthquakes etc., none of which are essential to a world created by the Gods. Theye could have just as easily made it otherwise, they just didn't.

And so the next argument is, "Well, this is the way existence is!" Except that argument has no reply against: "Yes, but why did the gods create it "the way it is" when they just as easily could create it differently?" The answer: Evil exists to make us good-- a wonder to behold!

Or-- existence is natural and things happen that are good to our perspective, or bad to our perspective, and each day we choose a path unfettered by anything but the laws of nature.

There is really no such a things as a "natural consequence" because the root of all is the supernatural law-defining abilities of the gods that cobbled it together. Gods don't cause an earthquake? Yes, they establishe the laws of plate tectonics which describe the physical characteristics of portions of the earth’s crust which shifts and adjusts, and those elements together create shifting of landmasses we call earthquakes.

Gods don't cause a tornado? Yes, they establishs the laws of convection and rotation of planets, and those two elements together create swirling whirlwinds we call twisters. As the Author of All, they could have created a completely different existence-- but didn't.

Again, the paradox is solved by simply conceding that existence is precisely the way the gods wants it to be, good and bad alike, and go from there.

The supernatural told us the earth was round. How long was it before man supplanted his flat earth explanation for the horizon, to accommodate the supernatural fact that it wasn't?

The Greeks in fact were the first to measure the circumference of the Earth (and they knew it was a globe as well). As far as I know, the Greeks were not supernatural.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I know that you have, as others have shown, that you have failed here.

You truly do not know about what you pretend to master. That DNA can only require a Master Engineer is not even an interesting concept.

What's a matter Jake? Have you reached the end of your "scientific knowledge" of dimensions?
Are ya stumped? Tell me about these "curled up" dimensions.
You seem to think that you know more than I do. Enlighten me about the curls.

 

[ima]

Geez, this thread is stupid. You want to know how life and DNA probably got started? Read this:

Evolution 101: From Soup to Cells - the Origin of Life

 

[editec]

Since I don't have enough faith to be an evolutionist, would those of you who believe in evolution explain how a random bang created an extremely complex DNA language with 3 billion genetic letters that actually store information in the form of a four-character digital code?

I can explain it so pretty much anybody can understand it.

Magic.

For a better and fuller and scietific explaination you're going to have to read a book.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Hollie the Greeks weren't supernatural. God is. That is how Isaiah knew that the earth was an orb.

Ima, Seriously? Soup created a 40 billion letter code in 4 characters? Was it vegetable soup?

I know that you have, as others have shown, that you have failed here.

You truly do not know about what you pretend to master. That DNA can only require a Master Engineer is not even an interesting concept.

What's a matter Jake? Have you reached the end of your "scientific knowledge" of dimensions?
Are ya stumped? Tell me about these "curled up" dimensions.
You seem to think that you know more than I do. Enlighten me about the curls.

And yet here you are, not knowing anything at all since you contribute nothing.
In other words, you know nothing of curled dimensions. That's understandable. It's new to some.
Unless you read the Bible.
Here is a list of the people that knew the Heavens absolutely can be curled up, or as they put it, "rolled up like a scroll".
Isaiah
Paul
John
Christ.
We are just catching up to God.



editec, I hope that book is the Bible. It turns magic into the 6th dimension.
John 20:19

 

[Hollie]

Hollie the Greeks weren't supernatural. God is. That is how Isaiah knew that the earth was an orb.

You may wish to save "because I say so " as a Microsoft word template to end your posts.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I didn't say so. lol. That would be Isaiah. Is.40:22
because God says so.........

 

[JakeStarkey]

Ram, here you are offering philosophy in place of emprical data, which you can't offer. We understand that.

So, while I appreciate the attempt, truly do, your efforts are mental masturbation (feels real good) but is sterile.

Hollie the Greeks weren't supernatural. God is. That is how Isaiah knew that the earth was an orb.

Ima, Seriously? Soup created a 40 billion letter code in 4 characters? Was it vegetable soup?

I know that you have, as others have shown, that you have failed here.

You truly do not know about what you pretend to master. That DNA can only require a Master Engineer is not even an interesting concept.

What's a matter Jake? Have you reached the end of your "scientific knowledge" of dimensions?
Are ya stumped? Tell me about these "curled up" dimensions.
You seem to think that you know more than I do. Enlighten me about the curls.

And yet here you are, not knowing anything at all since you contribute nothing.
In other words, you know nothing of curled dimensions. That's understandable. It's new to some.
Unless you read the Bible.
Here is a list of the people that knew the Heavens absolutely can be curled up, or as they put it, "rolled up like a scroll".
Isaiah
Paul
John
Christ.
We are just catching up to God.



editec, I hope that book is the Bible. It turns magic into the 6th dimension.
John 20:19

 

[Hollie]

I didn't say so. lol. That would be Isaiah. Is.40:22
because God says so.........

Isaiah learned from the Greeks. That's not surprising.

 

[InDoctriNation]

You've got nothing and you know it. You've googled your brains out trying to find some thing to refute what I've said and you can't.

You are still not providing any justification for your claim that DNA could not have had simple beginnings.

Yes indeed I have. I used your own chain of evidence to prove it. Again, amoeba. What your big fat evolved brain thought was a simple beginning, is none other than a complex digitally encoded living thing. Nothing simple about amoeba DNA.
You on the other hand have provided no justification for your claim that DNA DID have a simple beginning. You keep pretending that your little amoeba was simple in the beginning, even though we know that not to be the case. Prove your simpleness.
So,
Go find me an amoeba that had no digital code. Find a simple one for me and then explain how long it took for that one to become the one you put at the beginning of your origin of life chain LOL.

As far as what I know about dimensions? More than you.
Tell me about this new theory of "curled up" dimensions, that your esteemed scientific minds of the day, have deduced. Did YOU know they were curled up?? Can dimensions be curled?

Modern day amoeba are not equivalent to the single celled organisms that lived billions of years ago, so I don't see why you keep trying to make this equivalence. They evolved as well, and are immensely more complex that the earliest cells. And the way you are talking about other dimensions betrays your ignorance of any real scientific knowledge about the subject. You clearly don't know a damn thing about other dimensions, since the only way to know anything at all about such dimensions is to have an expert understanding of the mind boggling mathematics that explains them. You seem to have an understanding of quantum physics on par with that of Deepak Chopra's understanding.

Plus, I see you have begun to result to throwing insults my way as well, how very Christian of you. I am done with you on this thread, it is a pointless task to argue with the willfully and dutifully ignorant.

 

[JakeStarkey]

TIR is trying to evolve from a single-cell organism, is all.

Give him a billion years.

 

[Gadawg73]

Those of us with a strong Christian faith have no problem with natural selection and evolution.

 

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,

Those of us with a strong Christian faith have no problem with natural selection and evolution.

1. Sorry but do you speak for *ALL* Christians with strong Faith?
2. Evolutions is for fools.
3. And anyone who says we evolved is a fool.
4. Its the truth.
5. Evolution is impossible.
6. Creation was just that, created, it didn't start out simple then grow complex.
7. Its started complex and stayed complex.
8. We didn't evolve from sea creatures, or monkeys, or some form of monkey, impossible.
9. I naturally selected my wife, and she accepted me when I found her, which she indeed naturally selected me.
10. That in itself is what people do.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

 

[ima]

Sorry bout that,

Those of us with a strong Christian faith have no problem with natural selection and evolution.

1. Sorry but do you speak for *ALL* Christians with strong Faith?
2. Evolutions is for fools.
3. And anyone who says we evolved is a fool.
4. Its the truth.
5. Evolution is impossible.
6. Creation was just that, created, it didn't start out simple then grow complex.
7. Its started complex and stayed complex.
8. We didn't evolve from sea creatures, or monkeys, or some form of monkey, impossible.
9. I naturally selected my wife, and she accepted me when I found her, which she indeed naturally selected me.
10. That in itself is what people do.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

What proof do you have that we were created complex by a god, as you would say? Anything?

 

[ima]

Those of us with a strong Christian faith have no problem with natural selection and evolution.

So you believe that Noah was 600 years old?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Gadawag speaks for the majority and for all of thinking Christianity.

Thinking Christians have no problem with evolution.

Thinking Christians know evolution is not a salvation issue.

Thinking Christians have the duty taking the far-right ID Christians in hand and educating them appropriately.

Thinking Christians are quite happy to do that.

Sorry bout that,

Those of us with a strong Christian faith have no problem with natural selection and evolution.

1. Sorry but do you speak for *ALL* Christians with strong Faith?
2. Evolutions is for fools.
3. And anyone who says we evolved is a fool.
4. Its the truth.
5. Evolution is impossible.
6. Creation was just that, created, it didn't start out simple then grow complex.
7. Its started complex and stayed complex.
8. We didn't evolve from sea creatures, or monkeys, or some form of monkey, impossible.
9. I naturally selected my wife, and she accepted me when I found her, which she indeed naturally selected me.
10. That in itself is what people do.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas