Damned if you do, damned if you don't

[patrickcaturday]

There are lots of things in this world that I have a hard time understanding, but I have to admit that this really baffeles me. Israel insists that it be called a Jewish State, and yet when Sen. Hagel comes out and sayes " the Jewish Lobby " when talking about groups that support Israel, all of a sudden there are all sorts of Jewish people and pro Jewish people who are accusing him of being an anti-Semite. Seems as if the Jewish People want their cake and want to eat it also, can someone please explain this to me. Are the Jewish people so special that they get to change the flavor of a word repeatly in order to suit their every whim.

 

[uscitizen]

Yes.

Antisemite used to include other Semitic people besides Jews.

 

[Roudy]

There are lots of things in this world that I have a hard time understanding, but I have to admit that this really baffeles me. Israel insists that it be called a Jewish State, and yet when Sen. Hagel comes out and sayes " the Jewish Lobby " when talking about groups that support Israel, all of a sudden there are all sorts of Jewish people and pro Jewish people who are accusing him of being an anti-Semite. Seems as if the Jewish People want their cake and want to eat it also, can someone please explain this to me. Are the Jewish people so special that they get to change the flavor of a word repeatly in order to suit their every whim.

“When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You’re talking anti-Semitism!”
—Martin Luther King, Jr.


King’s words were first reported by Seymour Martin Lipset, at that time the George D. Markham Professor of Government and Sociology at Harvard, in an article he published in the magazine Encounter in December 1969—that is, in the year following King’s assassination. Lipset:

Shortly before he was assassinated, Martin Luther King, Jr. was in Boston on a fund-raising mission, and I had the good fortune to attend a dinner which was given for him in Cambridge. This was an experience which was at once fascinating and moving: one witnessed Dr. King in action in a way one never got to see in public. He wanted to find what the Negro students at Harvard and other parts of the Boston area were thinking about various issues, and he very subtly cross-examined them for well over an hour and a half. He asked questions, and said very little himself. One of the young men present happened to make some remark against the Zionists. Dr. King snapped at him and said, “Don’t talk like that! When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You’re talking anti-Semitism!”

 

[irosie91]

Yes.

Antisemite used to include other Semitic people besides Jews.

When was that? I do not recall ever encountering a standard usage
other than in reference to jews what difference does it make to you?

 

[MJB12741]

LMAO! You have a very fine brain Patrick. Hegel is an American patriot who condemns John McCain for not being American enough, hates our allies, especially Israel, supports Iran's nuclear ambitions, denies that Hamas is anti American & refuses to allow gays to help fight for our country. Yes sir, an American patriot of moral concience.

There are lots of things in this world that I have a hard time understanding, but I have to admit that this really baffeles me. Israel insists that it be called a Jewish State, and yet when Sen. Hagel comes out and sayes " the Jewish Lobby " when talking about groups that support Israel, all of a sudden there are all sorts of Jewish people and pro Jewish people who are accusing him of being an anti-Semite. Seems as if the Jewish People want their cake and want to eat it also, can someone please explain this to me. Are the Jewish people so special that they get to change the flavor of a word repeatly in order to suit their every whim.

 

[pbel]

There are lots of things in this world that I have a hard time understanding, but I have to admit that this really baffeles me. Israel insists that it be called a Jewish State, and yet when Sen. Hagel comes out and sayes " the Jewish Lobby " when talking about groups that support Israel, all of a sudden there are all sorts of Jewish people and pro Jewish people who are accusing him of being an anti-Semite. Seems as if the Jewish People want their cake and want to eat it also, can someone please explain this to me. Are the Jewish people so special that they get to change the flavor of a word repeatly in order to suit their every whim.

Patrick, double talk has been brought up to an art form by the right wing ZioNuts on these boards...When they call you an anti-Semite let it roll off your back because that means they are at a loss in responding...Even the double talk can't help them twist the truth.

 

[RoccoR]

patrickcaturday, et al,

Just as there are a number of different Americans with divergent ideas, so there are a number of different Israelis with varying concepts.

There are lots of things in this world that I have a hard time understanding, but I have to admit that this really baffeles me. Israel insists that it be called a Jewish State, and yet when Sen. Hagel comes out and sayes " the Jewish Lobby " when talking about groups that support Israel, all of a sudden there are all sorts of Jewish people and pro Jewish people who are accusing him of being an anti-Semite. Seems as if the Jewish People want their cake and want to eat it also, can someone please explain this to me. Are the Jewish people so special that they get to change the flavor of a word repeatly in order to suit their every whim.

(COMMENT)

When Senator Chuck Hagel (R-NE) was referenced in this accusation, it wasn't about using the term "Jewish Lobby." It was about the expression of the character of the "Jewish Lobby." The accusation was made by an aid and it is concerning how Senator Hagel perceives the influence the "Jewish Lobby" has over US Foreign Policy:

"Send us Hagel and we will make sure every American knows he is an anti-Semite." When asked to elaborate, the aide writes, "Hagel has made clear he believes in the existence of a nefarious Jewish lobby that secretly controls U.S. foreign policy. This is the worst kind of anti-Semitism there is."

The top aide Republican Senate aide passes along this quotation from Hagel: “The political reality is that … the Jewish lobby intimidates a lot of people up here.”

SOUrCE: Republican Senate Aide Calls Hagel Anti-Semitic - The Daily Beast
REFERENCES:
Senate Aide: 'Send Us Hagel and We Will Make Sure Every American Knows He Is an Anti-Semite' | The Weekly Standard
Ted Cruz Opposes Hagel Nomination | Washington Free Beacon
The Hagel litmus test

This is a question and a impression that any number of people have expressed over the last 30 years. Senator Hagel is not the first to suggest that the power and influence of the Jewish Lobby is very strong.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[patrickcaturday]

There are lots of things in this world that I have a hard time understanding, but I have to admit that this really baffeles me. Israel insists that it be called a Jewish State, and yet when Sen. Hagel comes out and sayes " the Jewish Lobby " when talking about groups that support Israel, all of a sudden there are all sorts of Jewish people and pro Jewish people who are accusing him of being an anti-Semite. Seems as if the Jewish People want their cake and want to eat it also, can someone please explain this to me. Are the Jewish people so special that they get to change the flavor of a word repeatly in order to suit their every whim.

“When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You’re talking anti-Semitism!”
—Martin Luther King, Jr.


King’s words were first reported by Seymour Martin Lipset, at that time the George D. Markham Professor of Government and Sociology at Harvard, in an article he published in the magazine Encounter in December 1969—that is, in the year following King’s assassination. Lipset:

Shortly before he was assassinated, Martin Luther King, Jr. was in Boston on a fund-raising mission, and I had the good fortune to attend a dinner which was given for him in Cambridge. This was an experience which was at once fascinating and moving: one witnessed Dr. King in action in a way one never got to see in public. He wanted to find what the Negro students at Harvard and other parts of the Boston area were thinking about various issues, and he very subtly cross-examined them for well over an hour and a half. He asked questions, and said very little himself. One of the young men present happened to make some remark against the Zionists. Dr. King snapped at him and said, “Don’t talk like that! When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You’re talking anti-Semitism!”

As usual Roudy your post has nothing to do with the OP if you wish to engage in discussion please adress the points raised therein.
Also I would be a little more circumspect in your use of Lipset as a reliable source because in one of his supposed historical documents ( turned out to be pure fiction ) " Letter to an anti-zionist friend " was a complete fabrication of supposed quotes from MLK.

 

[patrickcaturday]

;6614101][C

LMAO! You have a very fine brain Patrick. Hegel is an American patriot who condemns John McCain for not being American enough, hates our allies, especially Israel, supports Iran's nuclear ambitions, denies that Hamas is anti American & refuses to allow gays to help fight for our country. Yes sir, an American patriot of moral concience.

There are lots of things in this world that I have a hard time understanding, but I have to admit that this really baffeles me. Israel insists that it be called a Jewish State, and yet when Sen. Hagel comes out and sayes " the Jewish Lobby " when talking about groups that support Israel, all of a sudden there are all sorts of Jewish people and pro Jewish people who are accusing him of being an anti-Semite. Seems as if the Jewish People want their cake and want to eat it also, can someone please explain this to me. Are the Jewish people so special that they get to change the flavor of a word repeatly in order to suit their every whim.[/COLOR]

MJB Please supply some sort of verification for ALL of your slanders ( lies ) .

 

[patrickcaturday]

patrickcaturday, et al,

Just as there are a number of different Americans with divergent ideas, so there are a number of different Israelis with varying concepts.

There are lots of things in this world that I have a hard time understanding, but I have to admit that this really baffeles me. Israel insists that it be called a Jewish State, and yet when Sen. Hagel comes out and sayes " the Jewish Lobby " when talking about groups that support Israel, all of a sudden there are all sorts of Jewish people and pro Jewish people who are accusing him of being an anti-Semite. Seems as if the Jewish People want their cake and want to eat it also, can someone please explain this to me. Are the Jewish people so special that they get to change the flavor of a word repeatly in order to suit their every whim.

(COMMENT)

When Senator Chuck Hagel (R-NE) was referenced in this accusation, it wasn't about using the term "Jewish Lobby." It was about the expression of the character of the "Jewish Lobby." The accusation was made by an aid and it is concerning how Senator Hagel perceives the influence the "Jewish Lobby" has over US Foreign Policy:

"Send us Hagel and we will make sure every American knows he is an anti-Semite." When asked to elaborate, the aide writes, "Hagel has made clear he believes in the existence of a nefarious Jewish lobby that secretly controls U.S. foreign policy. This is the worst kind of anti-Semitism there is."

The top aide Republican Senate aide passes along this quotation from Hagel: “The political reality is that … the Jewish lobby intimidates a lot of people up here.”

SOUrCE: Republican Senate Aide Calls Hagel Anti-Semitic - The Daily Beast
REFERENCES:
Senate Aide: 'Send Us Hagel and We Will Make Sure Every American Knows He Is an Anti-Semite' | The Weekly Standard
Ted Cruz Opposes Hagel Nomination | Washington Free Beacon
The Hagel litmus test

This is a question and a impression that any number of people have expressed over the last 30 years. Senator Hagel is not the first to suggest that the power and influence of the Jewish Lobby is very strong.

Most Respectfully,
R

This is the first time I have responded to you , so please forgive me if I am honestly blunt. Your post is at best inane and at worst disengenous ( sp ). You are taking a quote from an unnamed source ( always a questionable tactic ) and attributing by inferance to Hagel !!!

 

[RoccoR]

patrickcaturday, et al,

Actually, if you read the source I attached, you will note that "The quotation attributed to Hagel appeared in Aaron David Miller's 2008 book The Too Much Promised Land." and is republished in several MSM outlets. It is not an "unnamed" source.

patrickcaturday, et al,

Just as there are a number of different Americans with divergent ideas, so there are a number of different Israelis with varying concepts.


(COMMENT)

When Senator Chuck Hagel (R-NE) was referenced in this accusation, it wasn't about using the term "Jewish Lobby." It was about the expression of the character of the "Jewish Lobby." The accusation was made by an aid and it is concerning how Senator Hagel perceives the influence the "Jewish Lobby" has over US Foreign Policy:


This is a question and a impression that any number of people have expressed over the last 30 years. Senator Hagel is not the first to suggest that the power and influence of the Jewish Lobby is very strong.

Most Respectfully,
R

This is the first time I have responded to you , so please forgive me if I am honestly blunt. Your post is at best inane and at worst disengenous ( sp ). You are taking a quote from an unnamed source ( always a questionable tactic ) and attributing by inferance to Hagel !!!

(COMMENT)

I did not say that Senator Hagel said anything anti-Semitic. In fact, I said that many Americans have expressed a similar concern that the Israelis have about the Jewish Lobby (Selected Impression: Israel lobby in the United States Israel lobby in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), including the members of the Lobby itself.

AIPAC’s mission is to strengthen the ties between the United States and its ally Israel. As America’s leading pro-Israel lobby, AIPAC works with Democrats, Republicans and Independents to enact public policy that enhances the U.S.-Israel relationship.
SOURCE: Our Mission

Lobby Examples:

• American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC)
• American Jewish Congress (AJC)
• Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations
• Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA)
• Zionist Organization Of America (ZOA)

I fail to see --- that what I said is offensive in any way in any way to either the various lobby members or Senator Hagel. It is the lobby's stated objective. In fact, if you look at the Wiki link, it jumps out at you.

BTW: I generally give a source or a reference for people to digest and analyze. I try not to use questionable tactics. If I'm wrong, I will admit it an apologize, but in this case, I don't think so.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[patrickcaturday]

patrickcaturday, et al,

Actually, if you read the source I attached, you will note that "The quotation attributed to Hagel appeared in Aaron David Miller's 2008 book The Too Much Promised Land." and is republished in several MSM outlets. It is not an "unnamed" source.

This is the first time I have responded to you , so please forgive me if I am honestly blunt. Your post is at best inane and at worst disengenous ( sp ). You are taking a quote from an unnamed source ( always a questionable tactic ) and attributing by inferance to Hagel !!!

(COMMENT)

I did not say that Senator Hagel said anything anti-Semitic. In fact, I said that many Americans have expressed a similar concern that the Israelis have about the Jewish Lobby (Selected Impression: Israel lobby in the United States Israel lobby in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), including the members of the Lobby itself.

AIPAC’s mission is to strengthen the ties between the United States and its ally Israel. As America’s leading pro-Israel lobby, AIPAC works with Democrats, Republicans and Independents to enact public policy that enhances the U.S.-Israel relationship.
SOURCE: Our Mission

Lobby Examples:

• American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC)
• American Jewish Congress (AJC)
• Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations
• Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA)
• Zionist Organization Of America (ZOA)

I fail to see --- that what I said is offensive in any way in any way to either the various lobby members or Senator Hagel. It is the lobby's stated objective. In fact, if you look at the Wiki link, it jumps out at you.

BTW: I generally give a source or a reference for people to digest and analyze. I try not to use questionable tactics. If I'm wrong, I will admit it an apologize, but in this case, I don't think so.

Most Respectfully,
R

So you are saying that the source of the Quote was Aron David Miller. Can you tell me when he was a Senate Aide and which Senator he worked for.

 

[Roudy]

“When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You’re talking anti-Semitism!”
—Martin Luther King, Jr.


King’s words were first reported by Seymour Martin Lipset, at that time the George D. Markham Professor of Government and Sociology at Harvard, in an article he published in the magazine Encounter in December 1969—that is, in the year following King’s assassination. Lipset:

Shortly before he was assassinated, Martin Luther King, Jr. was in Boston on a fund-raising mission, and I had the good fortune to attend a dinner which was given for him in Cambridge. This was an experience which was at once fascinating and moving: one witnessed Dr. King in action in a way one never got to see in public. He wanted to find what the Negro students at Harvard and other parts of the Boston area were thinking about various issues, and he very subtly cross-examined them for well over an hour and a half. He asked questions, and said very little himself. One of the young men present happened to make some remark against the Zionists. Dr. King snapped at him and said, “Don’t talk like that! When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You’re talking anti-Semitism!”

As usual Roudy your post has nothing to do with the OP if you wish to engage in discussion please adress the points raised therein.
Also I would be a little more circumspect in your use of Lipset as a reliable source because in one of his supposed historical documents ( turned out to be pure fiction ) " Letter to an anti-zionist friend " was a complete fabrication of supposed quotes from MLK.

This particular quote regarding anti Zionism being the same as anti Semitism, was true and verified, sorry to say. Keep in mind this is 1969 after Israel had fought it's two major wars and won the West Bank and Gaza. "Letter to Zionist friend" could not be verified, however it does not make it untrue though.

Based on the true quote though, and Martin Luther King's religiosity, it is more likely that the letter was also true. As far as it's relevance, you seem to have a dilemma understanding that your and Hagel are different, in that your views are more in line with the type of anti Semites that disguise their Jew hate as "anti Zionism" that Martin Luther King was talking about.

Chuck Hagel has simply been proven wrong on almost every single major foreign policy issue in the last decade. He was wrong on the Iraq surge, wrong on not issuing sanctions on Iran, wrong on not going into Afghanistan, wrong on not labeling Hezbollah and Hamas terrorist groups, etc. It appears that he has tried to apply his sour experience during Vietnam with a one size fits all solution to almost every international conflict.

However, as I mentioned in another post, his stance on Israel is irrelevant and all smoke and mirrors. The concerns about him would be better suited if he were chosen as Secretary of State. The main reason Obama chose him is that he will follow through and bless the massive defense cuts being proposed by Obama. The same cuts that his predecessor / current secretary of defense Leon Panetta called "shooting yourself in the head".

 

[Roudy]

“When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You’re talking anti-Semitism!”
—Martin Luther King, Jr.


King’s words were first reported by Seymour Martin Lipset, at that time the George D. Markham Professor of Government and Sociology at Harvard, in an article he published in the magazine Encounter in December 1969—that is, in the year following King’s assassination. Lipset:

Shortly before he was assassinated, Martin Luther King, Jr. was in Boston on a fund-raising mission, and I had the good fortune to attend a dinner which was given for him in Cambridge. This was an experience which was at once fascinating and moving: one witnessed Dr. King in action in a way one never got to see in public. He wanted to find what the Negro students at Harvard and other parts of the Boston area were thinking about various issues, and he very subtly cross-examined them for well over an hour and a half. He asked questions, and said very little himself. One of the young men present happened to make some remark against the Zionists. Dr. King snapped at him and said, “Don’t talk like that! When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You’re talking anti-Semitism!”

As usual Roudy your post has nothing to do with the OP if you wish to engage in discussion please adress the points raised therein.
Also I would be a little more circumspect in your use of Lipset as a reliable source because in one of his supposed historical documents ( turned out to be pure fiction ) " Letter to an anti-zionist friend " was a complete fabrication of supposed quotes from MLK.

I suggest you remove the Martin Luther King quote from your signature. The quote is 100% true. Hate to be you. from the same source as my previous response:


King’s words were first reported by Seymour Martin Lipset, at that time the George D. Markham Professor of Government and Sociology at Harvard, in an article he published in the magazine Encounter in December 1969—that is, in the year following King’s assassination. Lipset:

Shortly before he was assassinated, Martin Luther King, Jr. was in Boston on a fund-raising mission, and I had the good fortune to attend a dinner which was given for him in Cambridge. This was an experience which was at once fascinating and moving: one witnessed Dr. King in action in a way one never got to see in public. He wanted to find what the Negro students at Harvard and other parts of the Boston area were thinking about various issues, and he very subtly cross-examined them for well over an hour and a half. He asked questions, and said very little himself. One of the young men present happened to make some remark against the Zionists. Dr. King snapped at him and said, “Don’t talk like that! When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You’re talking anti-Semitism!”

 

[PredFan]

There are lots of things in this world that I have a hard time understanding, but I have to admit that this really baffeles me. Israel insists that it be called a Jewish State, and yet when Sen. Hagel comes out and sayes " the Jewish Lobby " when talking about groups that support Israel, all of a sudden there are all sorts of Jewish people and pro Jewish people who are accusing him of being an anti-Semite. Seems as if the Jewish People want their cake and want to eat it also, can someone please explain this to me. Are the Jewish people so special that they get to change the flavor of a word repeatly in order to suit their every whim.

Lobby = State?

Get a clue.

 

[MHunterB]

Yes.

Antisemite used to include other Semitic people besides Jews.

You've got that backwards.

 

[pbel]

Yes.

Antisemite used to include other Semitic people besides Jews.

You've got that backwards.

Ze anal retentive Large Marg(e) flies in in her prissy pissey broom handle to give advice...It must be hell to be so tight!

 

[ForeverYoung436]

There are lots of things in this world that I have a hard time understanding, but I have to admit that this really baffeles me. Israel insists that it be called a Jewish State, and yet when Sen. Hagel comes out and sayes " the Jewish Lobby " when talking about groups that support Israel, all of a sudden there are all sorts of Jewish people and pro Jewish people who are accusing him of being an anti-Semite. Seems as if the Jewish People want their cake and want to eat it also, can someone please explain this to me. Are the Jewish people so special that they get to change the flavor of a word repeatly in order to suit their every whim.

Netanyahu wants Israel to be recognized as a Jewish state, since the PA wants to swamp her with Palestinian "refugees", thereby destroying her Jewish character. However, within the United States, it's not only Jews that support Israel but many Evangelical and other Christians as well. "Jewish lobby" gives the connotation that American Jews have a dual loyalty. "Pro-Israel lobby" is a more correct term. Furthermore, "Jewish lobby" might mean lobbyists petitioning Washington for Sabbath-observance or Kosher laws, which is not the case.

 

[pbel]

There are lots of things in this world that I have a hard time understanding, but I have to admit that this really baffeles me. Israel insists that it be called a Jewish State, and yet when Sen. Hagel comes out and sayes " the Jewish Lobby " when talking about groups that support Israel, all of a sudden there are all sorts of Jewish people and pro Jewish people who are accusing him of being an anti-Semite. Seems as if the Jewish People want their cake and want to eat it also, can someone please explain this to me. Are the Jewish people so special that they get to change the flavor of a word repeatly in order to suit their every whim.

Netanyahu wants Israel to be recognized as a Jewish state, since the PA wants to swamp her with Palestinian "refugees", thereby destroying her Jewish character. However, within the United States, it's not only Jews that support Israel but many Evangelical and other Christians as well. "Jewish lobby" gives the connotation that American Jews have a dual loyalty.

Frankly, I want a two-state solution that works for both peoples. I hope Israel if acceptable to the Palestinians land swap each others heavy population concentrations to to retain their-own idenities...and share Jerusalem...there is no other way for a lasting peace.

 

[MHunterB]

Philsy, what makes you imagine that the Pals are going to be any more willing to 'share' Jerusalem with the Israelis than their Jordanian brethren were in '49 when they conducted ethnic cleansing of Jewish neighborhoods in East Jerusalem?

Were it not for that well-documented war crime/violation of human rights, your idea might seem reasonable. But as along as group like HAMAS and PFLP keep insisting that ANY land Israel exists on is 'occupied Palestine' - its not the Israelis who are posing a block to that 'two-state' solution.