curious what ya'll think of this

[KLSuddeth]

Non-violence means dialogue, using our language, the human language. Dialogue means compromise; respecting each other’s rights; in the spirit of reconciliation there is a real solution to conflict and disagreement. There is no hundred percent winner, no hundred percent loser—not that way but half-and-half. That is the practical way, the only way.

-His Holiness the Dalai Lama

 

[Hobbit]

Comprimise, however, implies that both sides agree to it, which is not always the case. Thought I can't remember the source of the quote, here's another one.

Those who think there is nothing worth fighting for are only afforded the freedom to say so by better men than they are.

Or something like that. I'll come back when I get the exact quote and the source.

 

[NewGuy]

I would agree.

Throw out the whole "compromise" thing. The idea needs to be a neutral look at both sides dissected on a table in front of both parties.

When conclusive proof shows which is the better option, a session opens for tweaking said option according to the same criteria. When all is said and done, the proper solution emerges fully agreed upon and will most likeley be the best solution with no compromise needed. -Yet all walk away having LEARNED something.

 

[Moi]

Originally posted by KLSuddeth
Non-violence means dialogue, using our language, the human language. Dialogue means compromise; respecting each other’s rights; in the spirit of reconciliation there is a real solution to conflict and disagreement. There is no hundred percent winner, no hundred percent loser—not that way but half-and-half. That is the practical way, the only way.

-His Holiness the Dalai Lama

I cannot see how the Dalai Lama believes compromise can be achieved when the goal of one side is the obliteration of the other. The fact is, that he (DL) believes in something I don't. That there is another force out there we should be heeding- great for him and other religious believers. I happen to believe there is only here and now so I'm not going to subjugate myself and my rights & happiness for some distant reward.

 

[Hobbit]

I believe in a divine being, a divine being who destroyed the Earth in a flood, destroyed two cities in a firestorm, drowned an entire army in an ocean, killed the firstborn of an entire nation, struck two people dead for lying to him, and even, while in human form, trashed the courtyard around a temple to him for being corrupt. God is quite benevolant and has a long fuse, but even Jesus had to get rowdy once.

 

[Dan]

God is quite benevolant and has a long fuse, but even Jesus had to get rowdy once.

Jesus was human. Most people don't think about it, but Jesus dealt with the same stresses of the world as the rest of us. I'd go so far as to say that the constant struggle of being a divine being (or at least thinking you are; I don't want to steer this off-course) while trying to survive as a human being may have made Jesus a more edgy person than others, maybe not on the outside, or to others, but the guy had to have flipped out at least a couple times, no?

 

[_dmp_]

this sums it up nicely...

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Dan
Jesus was human. Most people don't think about it, but Jesus dealt with the same stresses of the world as the rest of us. I'd go so far as to say that the constant struggle of being a divine being (or at least thinking you are; I don't want to steer this off-course) while trying to survive as a human being may have made Jesus a more edgy person than others, maybe not on the outside, or to others, but the guy had to have flipped out at least a couple times, no?

For the record, He had a whip in His hand. He used necessary force overturning tables and scattering the components and money from the illegal activity -in a place of worship.

He didn't fight anyone, he didn't use the whip, and was directing all dialog to the actions. Immediately He then had kind dialog with someone who was asking questions.

He didn't flip out or react emotionally. He took necessary disciplinary action against those who were ignoring law, His will, and mocked the worship of God, especially in HIs presence.

 

[Hobbit]

Originally posted by Dan
Jesus was human. Most people don't think about it, but Jesus dealt with the same stresses of the world as the rest of us. I'd go so far as to say that the constant struggle of being a divine being (or at least thinking you are; I don't want to steer this off-course) while trying to survive as a human being may have made Jesus a more edgy person than others, maybe not on the outside, or to others, but the guy had to have flipped out at least a couple times, no?

Nope, his apostles were with him 24/7, and he never flipped out. In what I was mentioning above, Jesus made a controlled, measured response. After seeing the temple turned into a marketplace, he left and made a whip. When he came back, he trashed the place pretty thoroughly, but was sure to do as little harm as possible to the people and animals. He was angry, but he was angry in a calm, controlled way. That's the difference between anger and rage.

 

[Dan]

Well, I wasn't actually talking about any one incident. All I'm saying is the Bible puts a lot of emphasis on the nature of Christ, how he's human, and also the son of God. Obviously, if he were human, would he not have to deal with the same emotions and problems that are inherent to human nature? I always saw him as a man, but it looks like a lot of people (not referring to you two, I'm talking people I've met and stuff) think of him simply as a mindless drone, nothing more than a vessel through which God could carry out his wills, and I don't agree with that. But, then again, I'm not really sold on Christianity anyhow, so my argument is kinda pointless, I suppose.

 

[5stringJeff]

Dan, you make an excellent point. Yes, Christ was fully human, meaning that He had emotions, feelings, and temptations just like we do. But He was, at the same time, fully God, with the ability to use His divine power according to His will. He willingly subordinated His own will, though, to the will of the Father (God) - as seen in His prayer in Gethsemane, where He prayed that, "If it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet, let Your will be done, not Mine." (This is the scene in the Passion where the snake slithers from underneath Satan's robe.)
But the important thing is that, while he had all these temptations and emotions, He never once acted in sin. That is what makes Jesus the only appropriate sin offering - He had no sin of His own to pay for, so He could pay for everyone else's.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Dan
Well, I wasn't actually talking about any one incident. All I'm saying is the Bible puts a lot of emphasis on the nature of Christ, how he's human, and also the son of God. Obviously, if he were human, would he not have to deal with the same emotions and problems that are inherent to human nature? I always saw him as a man, but it looks like a lot of people (not referring to you two, I'm talking people I've met and stuff) think of him simply as a mindless drone, nothing more than a vessel through which God could carry out his wills, and I don't agree with that. But, then again, I'm not really sold on Christianity anyhow, so my argument is kinda pointless, I suppose.

No, you are right. He DID have to deal with this stuff. The point that many people in both circles miss is that Jesus was God in flesh. This means He had some of the capacities of God in limited form. He could walk on water for example, or heal. The other thing about the emotions, is that He had all the same emotions, but He was also in constant prayer for anything he needed. We humans don't pray nearly enough. The most prayerful person, doesn't ask God for help in every single decision or circumstance as Jesus would. We also turn God away constantly by doing our own thing by way of pride. Jesus didn't have the emotional weaknesses because he used the safety net we all like to cut.

 

[Phoenix]

This is a good thread. On the issue of emotions, it is helpful to seperate them into categories such as this:

Holy Emotions- those contributed to God, such as compassion, joy and Holy indignation and those that accompany life in the Spirit such as praise, worship and adoration. These emotions are believed to be derived from the kingdom of light and the Spirit...as per: Eph. 5:18-21, Col.3:16-27,Gal. 5:22,23, and are in agreement with true wisdom.

Human Emotions-based on our human situation and the created order and shared by Jesus...grief, pain, fear, abandomnent, sadness and sorrow, anxiety, stress anguish and vulnerability.....these shall pass away in eternity.

Fleshly Emotions- are poisonous and destructive and include toxic emotions such as malice, envy, selfish ambition, bitterness, overpowering lusts and murderous hatred. Their outcome is spiritual death. They were not part of mankind at creation and not "natural".



Jesus suffered as a man, without sin....the ONLY man, without sin.


Phoenix

 

[Dan]

Human Emotions-based on our human situation and the created order and shared by Jesus...grief, pain, fear, abandomnent, sadness and sorrow, anxiety, stress anguish and vulnerability.....these shall pass away in eternity.

See, this kinda disturbs me a little. Obviously, eternity can't really be compared to this life and if it does exist, we probably don't have the means to comprehend it, anyway. But, if Heaven, or whatever form of eternity one believes in, is a place where pain, sadness, etc. is completely gone, it seems to me that this would be a very boring existence. Happiness in its purest form is basically little more than the absence of sadness, and we are truly joyful because we know that this joy won't last forever. To use a stupid analogy, to most people, lobster is a really rare thing to eat, and you usually do so only on special occasions. But, say you ate lobster every day for months. It wouldn't really be as good. Does that make any sense at all?

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Dan
See, this kinda disturbs me a little. Obviously, eternity can't really be compared to this life and if it does exist, we probably don't have the means to comprehend it, anyway. But, if Heaven, or whatever form of eternity one believes in, is a place where pain, sadness, etc. is completely gone, it seems to me that this would be a very boring existence. Happiness in its purest form is basically little more than the absence of sadness, and we are truly joyful because we know that this joy won't last forever. To use a stupid analogy, to most people, lobster is a really rare thing to eat, and you usually do so only on special occasions. But, say you ate lobster every day for months. It wouldn't really be as good. Does that make any sense at all?

Not having any answer other than it IS written that sorrows will be gone, I can only think in terms of levels of complacency versus happiness. The worst one would feel is satisfied. -The best is bliss.

That doesn't bother me at all.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by Dan
See, this kinda disturbs me a little. Obviously, eternity can't really be compared to this life and if it does exist, we probably don't have the means to comprehend it, anyway. But, if Heaven, or whatever form of eternity one believes in, is a place where pain, sadness, etc. is completely gone, it seems to me that this would be a very boring existence. Happiness in its purest form is basically little more than the absence of sadness, and we are truly joyful because we know that this joy won't last forever. To use a stupid analogy, to most people, lobster is a really rare thing to eat, and you usually do so only on special occasions. But, say you ate lobster every day for months. It wouldn't really be as good. Does that make any sense at all?

I understand where you are coming from Dan. It freaks me out to think about eternity as a unit of time! But instead of thinking about it as the absence of sadness, I tend to think of it as the prescence of many many good things. Or, to use your food analogy, I would think of it as a huge banquet (to borrow the analogy) or a great big buffett... all the food is great, and there are so many choices that it would take months to sample all of it.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
I understand where you are coming from Dan. It freaks me out to think about eternity as a unit of time! But instead of thinking about it as the absence of sadness, I tend to think of it as the prescence of many many good things. Or, to use your food analogy, I would think of it as a huge banquet (to borrow the analogy) or a great big buffett... all the food is great, and there are so many choices that it would take months to sample all of it.

I guess that would be a great example of how I would feel as well. Imagine the buffet bar that never ends.

 

[Moi]

I'm not trying to belittle anyone's faith, but divinity just makes no sense to me. I have so many problems with it that I just can't accept any of it. I've never met a religious person who treated anyone any better than non-religious people I know. I've seen the same amount of good and bad from both camps (religious/nonreligious).

Given that, and the fact that there are so many different faiths (even though most people think theirs is the only true one), how can anyone establish the peace referenced in the quote, even through religion?

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Moi
I'm not trying to belittle anyone's faith, but divinity just makes no sense to me. I have so many problems with it that I just can't accept any of it. I've never met a religious person who treated anyone any better than non-religious people I know. I've seen the same amount of good and bad from both camps (religious/nonreligious).

Given that, and the fact that there are so many different faiths (even though most people think theirs is the only true one), how can anyone establish the peace referenced in the quote, even through religion?

The peace established by Christ is more simple than most people want to believe. It is that Jesus will bring peace in the end times by eliminating all sin from people entirely. He is free from sin as He is God. The way people get to be in that situation is not by rituals, good behavior, or anything else but a simple decision to let Him guide their lives as their Lord and Savior.

That is it.

Christians are supposed to try harder, and do better, but in the end, we are all human. God knows that. The only way Christ would claim any peace or anything such as that is possible, is after He comes to reign again.

In fact, the Biblical book of revelation is all about the end times when someone called an anti-christ comes on the scene, makes a peace treaty with Israel, and promises world-wide "peace and security" by branding all with his mark in their arms or forheads, and establishing a one world religion. It is this attempt by man to simulate only what God can do, that will bring Christ's final judgement against all those who accept this mark. Only the ones resisting and believing in Christ will be around when Christ returns. -The ones believing now will be taken away before that time.

THAT is how peace can be brought about, not by religion, or people, bui through faith and by Christ. -ONLY-