CDZ Culture: Scotland had a mass shooting; last year, Scotland had two unlawful gun homicides

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by usmbguest5318, Feb 24, 2018.

  1. usmbguest5318
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    usmbguest5318 Gold Member

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    Scots, though a far less numerous than Americans, share an historical, thus cultural and ideology-driving, antecedent with the U.S: existential despotism at the hand of the English. I point this out because often enough, gun rights advocates remark that gun possession/ownership is crucial to so vehemently supports their Second Amendment right to bear arms is because they fear a despotic regime usurping American sovereignty and/or liberty -- a nasty legacy of English colonial rule in the Americas.

    Unlike every other Western democracy in the world, the U.S. response to gun violence, lo outright gun massacres, is reactive rather than proactive. Whereas the rest of the Westernised world, in response to gun violence and in recognition of the fact that where there are guns, there will inevitably be some gun violence, opted to manage access to the instruments of gun violence as their tactic for enhancing their citizens' safety, American conservatives would prefer to arm teachers or maybe even provide schools/children with bullet-proof blankets or vests.

    The gun culture of Scotland and England differs greatly from that of the U.S. The UK's gun culture centers almost exclusively around hunting (the exception being for sanctioned law enforcement purposes) [1]; thus guns there are viewed mainly as an instrument for field sports -- and not, as in the US, for self-defence, or as offensive instruments of vigilantism and vengeance. Consequently, banning guns not central to the grand “huntin’ and shootin’” tradition -- pistols and semi-automatics -- does bit impinge, for example, on the country's grouse, pheasant, hart, and target shooting traditions. Indeed, UK law acknowledges and maintains gun culture (to the extent it entails hunting, skeet and target shooting) as a recreational pursuit. Today shotgun licenses cost ~£80, despite it costing the police about £200 for firearm background checks. And grouse moor are subsidised by government at a rate of £56 per hectare.

    Dunblane, in a terrible way, has saved lives. And that is what Americans really should contemplate in the wake of the Parkland mass shooting: for all the sorrow and the pain that came with vengeance upon those kids and their families, what should also born from that horror is, as happened in Scotaly, a country with less guns and less gun violence. [2]


    Notes:
    1. To wit, the movie Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels, is a comedy plotted around the theft of a pair of treasured hunting shotguns.



      The point being that in the UK, the preponderant gun culture is cultured, that is to say, it's overwhelmingly this...

      [​IMG]

      [​IMG]

      [​IMG]


      ...not this....


      [​IMG]

      [​IMG]

      There are, of course, sporting hunters in the U.S., but sport hunters don't really need bulletproof vest and deer and other game hunters don't march through city streets, armed for bear, carrying rifles, and trying to look as "badass" as they can.
    2. Overview comparison of crime rates in Scotland and the U.S. The site also provides some count data, but given the population size differences between the two countries, count data aren't of any intrinsic value for this thread's topic.
    • As a preface to the following and as an epilogue to the above note, I must note that statistics don’t illustrate the stark terror that a victim of gun violence feels, a feeling that can linger for years after the event. And they don’t map the tears that mark the faces of those grieving the victim of a gunshot.


      Despite gun control measures undertaken since Dunblane, there are still plenty of guns in mainland Britain. Scotland has ~75K licensed firearms and shotguns. England and Wales even more, with about 1.8 million in circulation. And these guns have impact.

      In the ten years between 2003 and 2012, there were 182 recorded allegations of firearms being used in a school or college in Scotland. There were five years in that decade in which gun murders committed in Scotland still remain unsolved until this day. In those ten years, almost 40% of allegations of attempted murder with a firearm in Scotland still remain open cases with the police. And over 50% of allegations of robberies with a firearm in Scotland remain unsolved.

      Despite these facts, it is highly suggestive that those gun controls implemented after 1996 worked. The year of the Dunblane massacre, gun homicides peaked at 84 across the UK – the most on record. Today, gun killings have dropped to almost a third of that. In England and Wales in 2012/13, the police recorded 30 gun homicides, 12 fewer than the previous year, and the lowest figure since the National Crime Recording Standard was introduced in 2002.

      Today, in Scotland, firearms account for just 2% of all homicides, and the graph opposite starkly shows how gun deaths in Scotland have dropped since the introduction of those handgun laws.

      The biggest signifier of change, though, might be the role of handguns in crime since Dunblane. In England and Wales, !28% of all criminal use of guns involved handguns. They were actually fired in just 11% of cases – about 250 times. Compare this to the U.S. where handguns account for the overwhelming majority of all firearm-related homicides.

      Many say to such figures: well if you take away guns, people will just use other weapons to kill, won’t they? Well, in England and Wales, it seems this is not the case. The rate of violent attacks resulting in injury declined from 1995, when there were 56 incidents per 1,000 adults, to 15 incidents in 2015. This is a drop of 73% -- higher even than the decline in gun crime.

      It is also worth noting that in 1996 there was another mass shooting on the other side of the world. That year, in Tasmania saw a gunman kill 35 people using semi-automatic weapons. That shooting, as in Dunblane, triggered a political response that resulted in the implementation of rigorous gun control laws throughout Australia. A large array of weapons were banned and the government imposed a mandatory gun buy back. The results of such government action have been striking: there were 13 mass shootings in Australia in the 18-year period from 1979 to 1996, but none since.

      Not surprising, some might think. It seems logical that stricter gun controls will result in less gun deaths. In a country like Japan, where it’s virtually impossible to own a gun, there are essentially no gun deaths. Whereas, in the U.S., where there are over 300 million firearms, over 10K people were unlawfully shot and killed in 2017 (and guns account, in the U.S., for about 70% of all homicides).

      It would be wrong, though, to say conclusively that Dunblane’s gun laws have reduced gun violence. Just as the Founders, in mustering a revolt against England, took inspiration and actual guidance from the Scots, so again have the Scots shown the way to balance legitimate gun ownership and use with the need for public safety.

     
  2. TroglocratsRdumb
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    TroglocratsRdumb Gold Member

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    Scotland and America are very different countries.
    America has a large population of criminals.
    Americans want to be able to protect themselves from the Democratic Party's criminals.
     
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  3. Mac1958
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    Mac1958 Diamond Member

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    America's culture is in rapid decay.

    What is happening with guns is simply a reflection of that.
     
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  4. gipper
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    gipper Libertarian/Anarchist

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    You will never...NEVER....take guns out of the hands of Americans. There are too many guns held by private citizens.

    We have the 2A for a reason. Trying to limit the rights of the people for the mirage of safety, won't work. It is tyrannical.
     
  5. pismoe
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    pismoe Gold Member

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    Americans remember kicking 'british' azz back to the old country 'blighty' a couple hundred years ago and we might have to do similar sometime again in the future Xelor .
     
  6. pismoe
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    pismoe Gold Member

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    also , 'scots' are 'subjects' with a 'subject' mentality Xelor .
     
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  7. Crixus
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    Crixus Gold Member

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    Have you ever been to Scotland, England in general? Probably not. See, you got a piece written to show how nice a place is because folks can’t have guns. This is stupid. If you went where my folks are from you would be the American who got mugged and slashed up. Trust me, Scotts have guns. Civilians in the empire own the guns. They are just criminals for doing so.




    But to the article, only the very wealthy get to own guns and hunt. But here gun ownership isn’t just for the Gentry. If that’s what you want them move there?



    Oh, and you reference the founders, do you happen to remember why the brits were in Boston the night of The Boston massacre? There was one aspect of their mission everyone forgets to mention, they were to secure the armory and powder magazine. America isn’t Scotland.
     
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  8. 2aguy
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    2aguy Diamond Member

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    sorry.....Britain and Scotland were always less violent than the United States...even before they banned guns.....and currently, gun crime is increasing across England and Wales.....

    As to Japan...it is their culture, not their gun control which has kept their gun crime very low...all crime in Japan is low.......and until recently, the Yakuza would use guns and grenades when they would go to war...which was infrequent because their criminal culture focused on making money, not killing each other. Yet, in 2006, they had another gang war that lasted 7 years...guns and grenades were used .......

    Just last year they were on the verge of another gang war....and the only thing that stopped shooting and grenade throwing? The Japanese instituted Long Prison Sentences for being caught in possession of a gun....I have posted about this before......they also fine the heads of the Yakuza when their minions shoot people...something we can't do here......

    Britain...

    Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online

    The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.

    The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .




    ========



    Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show

    Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.

    =========



    Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News

    Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.

    Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime

    A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.

    ----

    He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.

    -----

    Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.

    Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.

    -----

    Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.

    He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.

    Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.

    He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”

    Violent crime on the rise in every corner of the country, figures suggest

    But analysis of the figures force by force, showed the full extent of the problem, with only one constabulary, Nottinghamshire, recording a reduction in violent offences.

    The vast majority of police forces actually witnessed double digit rises in violent crime, with Northumbria posting a 95 per cent increase year on year.

    Of the other forces, Durham Police recorded a 73 per cent rise; West Yorkshire was up 48 per cent; Avon and Somerset 45 per cent; Dorset 39 per cent and Warwickshire 37 per cent.

    Elsewhere Humberside, South Yorkshire, Staffordshire, Essex, Hertfordshire, Kent, Wiltshire and Dyfed Powys all saw violence rise by more than a quarter year on year.


     
  9. 2aguy
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    And on Japan...this is what stops gun crime in Japan as a whole...
    Japan: Gun Control and People Control

    Japan's low crime rate has almost nothing to do with gun control, and everything to do with people control. Americans, used to their own traditions of freedom, would not accept Japan's system of people controls and gun controls.



    Robbery in Japan is about as rare as murder. Japan's annual robbery rate is 1.8 per 100,000 inhabitants; America's is 205.4. Do the gun banners have the argument won when they point to these statistics? No, they don't. A realistic examination of Japanese culture leads to the conclusion that gun control has little, if anything, to do with Japan's low crime rates. Japan's lack of crime is more the result of the very extensive powers of the Japanese police, and the distinctive relation of the Japanese citizenry to authority. Further, none of the reasons which have made gun control succeed in Japan (in terms of disarming citizens) exist in the U.S.

    The Japanese criminal justice system bears more heavily on a suspect than any other system in an industrial democratic nation. One American found this out when he was arrested in Okinawa for possessing marijuana: he was interrogated for days without an attorney, and signed a confession written in Japanese that he could not read. He met his lawyer for the first time at his trial, which took 30 minutes.

    Unlike in the United States, where the Miranda rule limits coercive police interrogation techniques, Japanese police and prosecutors may detain a suspect indefinitely until he confesses. (Technically, detentions are only allowed for three days, followed by ten day extensions approved by a judge, but defense attorneys rarely oppose the extension request, for fear of offending the prosecutor.) Bail is denied if it would interfere with interrogation.

    Even after interrogation is completed, pretrial detention may continue on a variety of pretexts, such as preventing the defendant from destroying evidence. Criminal defense lawyers are the only people allowed to visit a detained suspect, and those meetings are strictly limited.

    Partly as a result of these coercive practices, and partly as a result of the Japanese sense of shame, the confession rate is 95%.

    For those few defendants who dare to go to trial, there is no jury. Since judges almost always defer to the prosecutors' judgment, the trial conviction rate for violent crime is 99.5%.
    Of those convicted, 98% receive jail time.


    In short, once a Japanese suspect is apprehended, the power of the prosecutor makes it very likely the suspect will go to jail. And the power of the policeman makes it quite likely that a criminal will be apprehended.

    The police routinely ask "suspicious" characters to show what is in their purse or sack. In effect, the police can search almost anyone, almost anytime, because courts only rarely exclude evidence seized by the police -- even if the police acted illegally.

    The most important element of police power, though, is not authority to search, but authority in the community. Like school teachers, Japanese policemen rate high in public esteem, especially in the countryside. Community leaders and role models, the police are trained in calligraphy and Haiku composition. In police per capita, Japan far outranks all other major democracies.

    15,000 koban "police boxes" are located throughout the cities. Citizens go to the 24-hour-a-day boxes not only for street directions, but to complain about day-to-day problems, such as noisy neighbors, or to ask advice on how to raise children. Some of the policemen and their families live in the boxes. Police box officers clear 74.6% of all criminal cases cleared. Police box officers also spend time teaching neighborhood youth judo or calligraphy. The officers even hand- write their own newspapers, with information about crime and accidents, "stories about good deeds by children, and opinions of
    residents."

    The police box system contrasts sharply with the practice in America. Here, most departments adopt a policy of "stranger policing." To prevent corruption, police are frequently rotated from one neighborhood to another. But as federal judge Charles Silberman writes, "the cure is worse than the disease, for officers develop no sense of identification with their beats, hence no emotional stake in improving the quality of life there."

    Thus, the U.S. citizenry does not develop a supportive relationship with the police. One poll showed that 60% of police officers believe "it is difficult to persuade people to give patrolmen the information they need."

    The Japanese police do not spend all their time in the koban boxes. As the Japanese government puts it: "Home visit is one of the most important duties of officers assigned to police boxes." Making annual visits to each home in their beat, officers keep track of who lives where, and which family member to contact in case of emergency. The police also check on all gun licensees, to make sure no gun has been stolen or misused, that the gun is securely stored, and that the licensees are emotionally stable.

    Gun banners might rejoice at a society where the police keep such a sharp eye on citizens' guns. But the price is that the police keep an eye on everything.

    Policemen are apt to tell people reading sexually-oriented magazines to read something more worthwhile. Japan's major official year-end police report includes statistics like "Background and Motives for Girls' Sexual Misconduct." In 1985, the police determined that 37.4% of the girls had been seduced, and the rest had had sex "voluntarily." For the volunteers, 19.6% acted "out of curiosity", while for 18.1%, the motive was "liked particular boy." The year-end police report also includes sections on labor demands, and on anti-nuclear or anti-military demonstrations.
     
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  10. SobieskiSavedEurope
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    Does Scotland still have both the lowest gun ownership, yet the highest murder rate in Western Europe?
     
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