Bull Ring Coyote Vs TNH

Discussion in 'The Bull Ring' started by TNHarley, Feb 17, 2017.

  1. Olde Europe
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    Olde Europe Diamond Member

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    Thanks for this important, enjoyable discussion. Since the fighters have called it quits, I guess it's okay to add a cent or two.

    Just to note, quite formally, that TNH here admitted that liberty and equality are not the same. That is because there is no "thing" that is also its own basis (for the religious types: except for god). That would be like declaring house and foundation the same because the entire house is based on the latter.

    I found this definition, as quoted earlier, most helpful:

    Generally, liberty is distinctly differentiated from freedom in that freedom is primarily, if not exclusively, the ability to do as one wills and what one has the power to do; whereas liberty concerns the absence of arbitrary restraints and takes into account the rights of all involved. As such, the exercise of liberty is subject to capability and limited by the rights of others.​

    Liberty is freedom within the constraints as imposed by the rights of others. This does not mean these rights be necessarily equal: If the laws stipulate that the husband may beat his spouse, his liberty just no longer ends at the tip of her nose. Conversely, equality before the law, equal rights, would mean that his and her liberty have the same extent. Equality (equal rights) thus is not a consequence of liberty, but an external concept imposed to the effect that our liberty (everyone's liberty) is also equal. Slavery, as the grossest violation of equality, obviously, also guaranteed the biggest differential of liberty, which again means that liberty is entirely consistent with inequality, even gross inequality, before the law.
     
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  2. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist / Universalist Supporting Member

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    Well stated Olde Europe
    I guess this spells out the difference between POLITICAL rights such as voting and gun rights
    that are not the same level as natural rights and freedoms that are naturally occurring independent of govt and laws.
     
  3. Olde Europe
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    Olde Europe Diamond Member

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    Thanks, Emily.

    Though, I have no idea how you arrive at the thoughts outlined above. Equality before the law (and equal liberty for all) are concepts that comprise the entirety of the law, with no particular reference to particular laws, "political" or otherwise. Natural laws are not "occurring"; rather they are theoretical concepts based on human traits (thought to be universal and immutable), and meant to underpin deliberations as to the characteristics of a well-ordered society under the law. As such they are somewhat more specific than broader concepts (like equality), but still not laws as, say, enacted by a legislature.
     
  4. Marion Morrison
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    Marion Morrison Diamond Member

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    Thanks to whoever bumped this. It's really good! TNH may be mah bro but, I think Coyote won.

    Ofc that's just my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018

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