Court upholds ruling against Florist refusing service at same sex wedding

Discussion in 'Law and Justice System' started by emilynghiem, Jun 6, 2019.

  1. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist / Universalist Supporting Member

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    More unresolved conflict over differences in beliefs concerning same sex weddings.
    This time it is narrowed down to whether "religious animus" was involved or can even be proven. Doesn't that also require "faith based" judgment as well
    So both the
    * belief in same sex marriage vs. the belief against it
    and now the
    * belief in whether any "animus" or bias against beliefs was involved
    are involved where govt is not supposed to be deciding issues of beliefs
    so as to establish one over the other or "discriminate by creed or beliefs."

    Those AREN'T the issues that govt should be used to determine.

    The issues that CAN be distinguished and addressed
    * was the business discriminating against serving PEOPLE (due to their personal beliefs or orientation)
    * was the business refusing certain SERVICES they don't believe in offering to ANYONE REGARDLESS
    Also
    * were there other alternatives that would solve the problem which the complainants refused or failed to offer the business to resolve the dispute amicably to avoid legal action and expenses


    Normally I'd recommend either
    * subcontracting the work to assistant service staff that don't have a religious conflict
    (similar to enlisting help of a bilingual translator or interpreter in case of language barriers)
    * providing the goods or materials to the customer and letting them take responsibility for the rest
    * signing agreements in advance (similar to arbitration waivers in user agreements)
    where both clients and businesses agree to settle disputes by mediation and consensus,
    or if there are unresolved conflicts, they agree to refrain from conducting business together
    to AVOID legal action or expenses. So both sides agree not to penalize in case of conflicts in beliefs.

    Original story in the Florist's own words about getting sued by a friend over the wedding issue:
    Why a friend is suing me: the Arlene’s Flowers story

    In this case, I would have recommended a third party intervene and work out
    an agreement. In NO WAY should Courts or Govt be abused to force anyone to violate their conscience by dictating what message or artwork they should be "forced to create" for any customer. The business
    owner was willing to provide other services to the same customer, who was a longtime friend.
    But did not believe in creating any artwork, including floral decorations, for use in a same sex marriage.

    That's like a designer business NOT wanting to design sets or costumes for a movie project they turn down, whether they don't like the script, the message in the movie, or whatever reasons.

    Why aren't the business owner's beliefs and consent respected equally as the customer requesting it?

    If they don't agree, then as with artistic differences in the movie industry, they don't work together
    but go FIND SOMEONE ELSE.


    NOTE: I WOULD AGREE with the courts if the owner had discriminated and refused to serve the PERSON.
    (There ARE cases of clear harassment and discrimination against the PERSON. One I remember reading in particular, where the owner sat the person down and preached to them about their beliefs. So to PREVENT that kind of conflict from escalating, that's why I strongly suggest a mediation waiver and agreement, signed by any customer seeking to use business services. So if disputes arise, both sides are protected from harm.)

    ==================================================================================

    Washington Supreme Court upholds ruling against Arlene's Flowers

    The U.S. Supreme Court last year kicked the case back to the state court, asking it to decide if Washington courts in previous opinions had violated the U.S. Constitution's guarantee of religious neutrality.

    Thursday's opinion says that neither the Washington Supreme Court or the lower state court acted with religious animus when they ruled the florist violated the state's law against discrimination. The opinion says that Stutzman's refusal to provide flowers to the same-sex couple constituted discrimination against sexual orientation.
     
  2. william the wie
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    william the wie Gold Member

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    The Original NAZI party of Andrew Jackson still exists.
     
  3. Old Man Grumbles
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    Old Man Grumbles Senior Member

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    Growing up I remember signs in just about every business that said: I or We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.

    Is it now forbidden to refuse to serve someone for any reason?
     
  4. rightwinger
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    rightwinger Award Winning USMB Paid Messageboard Poster

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    Lock him up
     
  5. aaronleland
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    aaronleland Gold Member

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    If it violates the state's laws on discrimination, but it's silly people even take it that far. Just go to another florist. Find a florist with a dude working there, and you know you've found a sympathetic soul.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. rightwinger
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    rightwinger Award Winning USMB Paid Messageboard Poster

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    Same sex marriage has been resolved
    It is the law of the land

    If your business is unable to provide service to all, you are free to close down your business

    I have zero sympathy
     

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