CDZ Could it be too late for a viable third party?

[JoeB131]

I thought the Libertarian Party had a solid candidate in the 2016 election. Especially considering the competition.

I think the American people are just a lost cause and follow like sheep.

I think that when your candidate says he won't smoke dope in the Oval Office like he normally does, he kind of loses credibility.

The problem is, of course, is that at the end of the day, when we vote for a candidate, we vote for a team, not a person. Trump might be a nut, a lot of Republicans will admit when they are being honest. But he's going to bring a team in with him that knows what it is doing, mostly.

Who was Gary "Roll your own' Johnson going to bring in, Cheech and Chong?

 

[JoeB131]

Yeah, the two dominant parties are going to agree to a Constitutional Amendment that will weaken their dominance. Somehow I don't see that happening.

Do you also think the Democrats are bankrolling the Libertarians?

It wouldn't surprise me.

I think that there's going to be a lot of groundswell to get rid of the EC after Trump. He'll be that much of a disaster.

 

[WinterBorn]

I thought the Libertarian Party had a solid candidate in the 2016 election. Especially considering the competition.

I think the American people are just a lost cause and follow like sheep.

I think that when your candidate says he won't smoke dope in the Oval Office like he normally does, he kind of loses credibility.

The problem is, of course, is that at the end of the day, when we vote for a candidate, we vote for a team, not a person. Trump might be a nut, a lot of Republicans will admit when they are being honest. But he's going to bring a team in with him that knows what it is doing, mostly.

Who was Gary "Roll your own' Johnson going to bring in, Cheech and Chong?

So the fact that he smoked weed is your complaint? Hillary had more baggage than the carousel at Hartsfield, but someone who smoked weed occasionally is the issue?

He started as a door-to-door handyman and built one of the largest construction companies in New Mexico. But smoking weed is the issue?

He used the veto more times than the other 49 governors combined, and cut the fat from the state budget. But weed is the problem.

Registration for voters in the state is 2 to 1 democrat, but he won running as a republican. But weed!

 

[Mac1958]

I just had a fairly terrifying thought.

If a strong, viable and popular third party party can't rise up in the middle of THIS partisan disaster, maybe it never CAN.

Is it possible that independent and moderate voices are now so unwelcome in both "major" parties that they will no longer be allowed to see the light of day? Did we, as country, shut the door to independent and moderate thought so quickly and so firmly that they simply no longer have a place?

I hope I'm wrong here.
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The two-party clusterfuck is baked into our system. Winner-take-all, plurality voting guarantees it. The most that can happen is that one of the parties fucks up badly enough that they are replaced, but it's far more likely that they'll just change out of necessity. We just have to make it necessary.

This wouldn't be an issue if both parties were so quick to claim a "mandate" (no matter how close the elections are) and proceed to try to cram their winger agendas down our throats, while giving the other party the bird.

Both parties are now slaves to their whacked out bases, and that's a big part of this.
.

 

[Mac1958]

I just had a fairly terrifying thought.

If a strong, viable and popular third party party can't rise up in the middle of THIS partisan disaster, maybe it never CAN.

Is it possible that independent and moderate voices are now so unwelcome in both "major" parties that they will no longer be allowed to see the light of day? Did we, as country, shut the door to independent and moderate thought so quickly and so firmly that they simply no longer have a place?

I hope I'm wrong here.
.

I thought the Libertarian Party had a solid candidate in the 2016 election. Especially considering the competition.

I think the American people are just a lost cause and follow like sheep.

Can't argue. I guess as much as anything else, that's feeding into this disaster.
.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

I just had a fairly terrifying thought.

If a strong, viable and popular third party party can't rise up in the middle of THIS partisan disaster, maybe it never CAN.

Is it possible that independent and moderate voices are now so unwelcome in both "major" parties that they will no longer be allowed to see the light of day? Did we, as country, shut the door to independent and moderate thought so quickly and so firmly that they simply no longer have a place?

I hope I'm wrong here.
.

If this forum is any indication...no, it isn't possible. Not without some catastrophic event to wake people up.

 

[Mac1958]

I hope I'm wrong here.

If this forum is any indication...no, it isn't possible. Not without some catastrophic event to wake people up.

I've thought about that, and at this point, I'm not even sure THAT would be enough.

And worse, look at how many posters here are just fine with the way things are.
.

 

[rightwinger]

I just had a fairly terrifying thought.

If a strong, viable and popular third party party can't rise up in the middle of THIS partisan disaster, maybe it never CAN.

Is it possible that independent and moderate voices are now so unwelcome in both "major" parties that they will no longer be allowed to see the light of day? Did we, as country, shut the door to independent and moderate thought so quickly and so firmly that they simply no longer have a place?

I hope I'm wrong here.
.

It could be done

I just don’t see the balls to do it

Yeah. It's not in the nature of independents and moderates to force something like this.

They're not pugilistic, my-way-or-nothing kinds of people.
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They need an I am mad as hell and not going to take it anymore moment
Most third parties operate at the extreme left or right. They only serve to help the opposition party to get elected.

But a group of 20 moderates from both parties could control legislation. Nothing could get through without their votes

 

[Mac1958]

They need an I am mad as hell and not going to take it anymore moment
Most third parties operate at the extreme left or right. They only serve to help the opposition party to get elected.
But a group of 20 moderates from both parties could control legislation. Nothing could get through without their votes

Agreed. Maybe that's what will happen - enough lucid individuals will band together and show some balls.
.

 

[Olde Europe]

They need an I am mad as hell and not going to take it anymore moment

Oh, for pity's sake. The last time we were made to behold the like was in 2008/9, when the tea party got traction, invaded the GOP and infected them with their prion disease of the brain. Look what that got us into a decade later.

And what you learn from it is, We definitely need to repeat that experience? Really? Because the last time it worked like a charm.

 

[rightwinger]

They need an I am mad as hell and not going to take it anymore moment

Oh, for pity's sake. The last time we were made to behold the like was in 2008/9, when the tea party got traction, invaded the GOP and infected them with their prion disease of the brain. Look what that got us into a decade later.

And what you learn from it is, We definitely need to repeat that experience? Really? Because the last time it worked like a charm.

The Tea Tards ran from the extreme right

 

[Olde Europe]

They need an I am mad as hell and not going to take it anymore moment

Oh, for pity's sake. The last time we were made to behold the like was in 2008/9, when the tea party got traction, invaded the GOP and infected them with their prion disease of the brain. Look what that got us into a decade later.

And what you learn from it is, We definitely need to repeat that experience? Really? Because the last time it worked like a charm.

The Tea Tards ran from the extreme right

Yep, that's arguably true, but next you need to explain how a movement / party generated by way of a "mad as hell and not going to take it anymore moment" will unfailingly be moderate and reasonable - because nothing spells "reason" quite like "mad as hell".

 

[rightwinger]

They need an I am mad as hell and not going to take it anymore moment

Oh, for pity's sake. The last time we were made to behold the like was in 2008/9, when the tea party got traction, invaded the GOP and infected them with their prion disease of the brain. Look what that got us into a decade later.

And what you learn from it is, We definitely need to repeat that experience? Really? Because the last time it worked like a charm.

The Tea Tards ran from the extreme right

Yep, that's arguably true, but next you need to explain how a movement / party generated by way of a "mad as hell and not going to take it anymore moment" will unfailingly be moderate and reasonable - because nothing spells "reason" quite like "mad as hell".

I am not saying it would be, just that to be successful it would have to run from the middle

Fiscally conservative
Socially liberal

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Personally, I don't think we need a 3rd party.
We just need to collectively understand that the rock throwing contests does absolutely nothing to solve anything, and is exactly why Washington is useless.
Meanwhile globalism/corporatism is quite effectively destroying our quality of life in every way. And no one, NO ONE even talks about it.

 

[Olde Europe]

I am not saying it would be, just that to be successful it would have to run from the middle

Fiscally conservative
Socially liberal

"Fiscally conservative and socially liberal" - that is the Democratic party. There is no room there for a third party.

"Fiscally profligate and socially illiberal" - that's Republicans.

If - after all this time, arguably since Reagan - you still don't know where the parties stand, how are you going to find a spot where a third one could flourish?

 

[Mac1958]

Personally, I don't think we need a 3rd party.
We just need to collectively understand that the rock throwing contests does absolutely nothing to solve anything, and is exactly why Washington is useless.
Meanwhile globalism/corporatism is quite effectively destroying our quality of life in every way. And no one, NO ONE even talks about it.

My assumption in this thread is that the divisions aren't going to go away. Certainly it's possible that cooler heads will ultimately prevail, there just isn't much evidence of that, yet.

And look at the thread. There are many people on the ends of the spectrum who are just fine with the way things are. Marginalizing them will require some bravery from our elected "leaders".
.

 

[emilynghiem]

I just had a fairly terrifying thought.

If a strong, viable and popular third party party can't rise up in the middle of THIS partisan disaster, maybe it never CAN.

Is it possible that independent and moderate voices are now so unwelcome in both "major" parties that they will no longer be allowed to see the light of day? Did we, as country, shut the door to independent and moderate thought so quickly and so firmly that they simply no longer have a place?

I hope I'm wrong here.
.

Yes and No Mac1958
Third Parties and others left out of the polarized divide
will get smart and set up media networks and activist coalitions,
pulling together to get reforms and solutions lobbied in teams.

When the other one sided approaches fail, the people who
can work together and focus on solutions that work, across
party lines, will get their reforms across. As soon as they team up
and start using the media and political connections for this.

I have been lobbying for this through friends and leaders with
third parties to team up on solutions we actually agree on.

We can create jobs for all the candidates and leaders
instead of wasting millions in donations campaigning
for the same jobs using empty promises. With that same
capital and effort, we could be promoting real solutions
that people from all sides support and contribute to.
That is what I see coming out of all this. Just a
matter of time and organizing to align the right people
with the right ideas, and that will change the narrative.

 

[JoeB131]

So the fact that he smoked weed is your complaint? Hillary had more baggage than the carousel at Hartsfield, but someone who smoked weed occasionally is the issue?

He started as a door-to-door handyman and built one of the largest construction companies in New Mexico. But smoking weed is the issue?

He used the veto more times than the other 49 governors combined, and cut the fat from the state budget. But weed is the problem.

Registration for voters in the state is 2 to 1 democrat, but he won running as a republican. But weed!

Yeah, I don't want the guy trippin' balls next to the nukes for some reason.

Hillary might be corrupt.. and she has a lot of baggage (but again, all the stuff Republicans accused her of, never one conviction, she must have been Professor Moriarty and Keyser Soze combined.)

You also glossed over my point about a team. (Okay, my comment about Cheech and Chong was snarky). Who was Gary going to bring in with him? The Democrats and Republicans have a deep bench of Senators, Congressmen and Governors to run the major agencies. The Libertarians have... um...

 

[rightwinger]

Personally, I don't think we need a 3rd party.
We just need to collectively understand that the rock throwing contests does absolutely nothing to solve anything, and is exactly why Washington is useless.
Meanwhile globalism/corporatism is quite effectively destroying our quality of life in every way. And no one, NO ONE even talks about it.

Our parties have completely abandoned the art of compromise
A third party would force their hand

 

[rightwinger]

I am not saying it would be, just that to be successful it would have to run from the middle

Fiscally conservative
Socially liberal

"Fiscally conservative and socially liberal" - that is the Democratic party. There is no room there for a third party.

"Fiscally profligate and socially illiberal" - that's Republicans.

If - after all this time, arguably since Reagan - you still don't know where the parties stand, how are you going to find a spot where a third one could flourish?

The middle is unclaimed territory