CDZ Could it be too late for a viable third party?

I just had a fairly terrifying thought.

If a strong, viable and popular third party party can't rise up in the middle of THIS partisan disaster, maybe it never CAN.

Is it possible that independent and moderate voices are now so unwelcome in both "major" parties that they will no longer be allowed to see the light of day? Did we, as country, shut the door to independent and moderate thought so quickly and so firmly that they simply no longer have a place?

I hope I'm wrong here.
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Not going to happen in the near future that I can tell. It would require a politically catastrophic event for one or both parties, like being split in two. Or another party getting millions of signatures and becoming a major party. But even more, you need to reform the system, which neither party is willing to do as long as it's in power.
 
I just had a fairly terrifying thought.

If a strong, viable and popular third party party can't rise up in the middle of THIS partisan disaster, maybe it never CAN.

Is it possible that independent and moderate voices are now so unwelcome in both "major" parties that they will no longer be allowed to see the light of day? Did we, as country, shut the door to independent and moderate thought so quickly and so firmly that they simply no longer have a place?

I hope I'm wrong here.
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I read quite a few of the responses, but wanted to chime in before becoming too influenced and getting into side arguments that have little to do with my intended response.

If your over 40 or so you have witnessed cataclysmic changes in society and in government. Normal and abnormal have changed places. Some examples would be attitudes toward inter-racial marriage, gays, the free market versus socialism, privacy Rights, gun Rights, etc., etc. America is at least 160 degrees opposite of what the founders intended.

Last year I graduated after studying theology and on tv I see a need for the kinds of help I would offer those in need. I'm not about getting everybody paid up and prayed up and not into handouts. America needs people who will help them get back on track. They've lost their moral compass; they don't have a vision for tomorrow because the politicians can't show them one. People are unemployed, underemployed, and millions are screwed up due to drugs (whether legal or illegal), dysfunctional households, and questionable values.

As an old phart, I know that most Americans don't vote and a lot of them that do always believe they are voting for the lesser of two evils. The key is we do need a third party made up of people that actually have the same values as our ancestors when they created our Republic. The problem we have is not the MSM or the other two parties. Our problem is getting those who are tired of the status quo to commit to some common ideas (much like the founders did when they signed the Declaration of Independence.) Once that is done we need people who can harness the inherent power of the Internet to convey the new ideas.

You can bitch all day long about what's wrong, but what you need is a platform - something that the disenfranchised can relate to. Then you ignore the MSM, the two party system and build from the ground up. You'd be amazed at how fast the political scenery would change.
The last thing the two parties want, and the last thing the hardcore partisan ideologues want, is a strong and viable third party. The plan is to "beat" the "other" party and then shove their agendas down our throat from one end of the spectrum.

They have too much to lose here, so they'll do or say absolutely anything they can to stop this from happening.
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I just had a fairly terrifying thought.

If a strong, viable and popular third party party can't rise up in the middle of THIS partisan disaster, maybe it never CAN.

Is it possible that independent and moderate voices are now so unwelcome in both "major" parties that they will no longer be allowed to see the light of day? Did we, as country, shut the door to independent and moderate thought so quickly and so firmly that they simply no longer have a place?

I hope I'm wrong here.
.
Not going to happen in the near future that I can tell. It would require a politically catastrophic event for one or both parties, like being split in two. Or another party getting millions of signatures and becoming a major party. But even more, you need to reform the system, which neither party is willing to do as long as it's in power.
We posted just about the same thing at the exact same time.

:laugh:
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I just had a fairly terrifying thought.

If a strong, viable and popular third party party can't rise up in the middle of THIS partisan disaster, maybe it never CAN.

Is it possible that independent and moderate voices are now so unwelcome in both "major" parties that they will no longer be allowed to see the light of day? Did we, as country, shut the door to independent and moderate thought so quickly and so firmly that they simply no longer have a place?

I hope I'm wrong here.

Well, yeah... here's the reason why you always get this wrong.

Third parties only emerge when an issue comes up neither one of them is really addressing. Example- Ross Perot was able to push deficit and trade issues when neither party was really addressing them.

The point is, if you care about an issue, you have a home in one of the two parties. if that's what gets you out of bed in the morning, that's what you'll vote for.

The problem with the "moderate" is that he doesn't get out of bed until September or so.

He's nowhere to be found during midterms.
Another problem is a political party can’t be predicated on a single issue, such as the deficit and trade.
 
I just had a fairly terrifying thought.

If a strong, viable and popular third party party can't rise up in the middle of THIS partisan disaster, maybe it never CAN.

Is it possible that independent and moderate voices are now so unwelcome in both "major" parties that they will no longer be allowed to see the light of day? Did we, as country, shut the door to independent and moderate thought so quickly and so firmly that they simply no longer have a place?

I hope I'm wrong here.
.

It could be done

I just don’t see the balls to do it
 
I just had a fairly terrifying thought.

If a strong, viable and popular third party party can't rise up in the middle of THIS partisan disaster, maybe it never CAN.

Is it possible that independent and moderate voices are now so unwelcome in both "major" parties that they will no longer be allowed to see the light of day? Did we, as country, shut the door to independent and moderate thought so quickly and so firmly that they simply no longer have a place?

I hope I'm wrong here.
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The two-party clusterfuck is baked into our system. Winner-take-all, plurality voting guarantees it. The most that can happen is that one of the parties fucks up badly enough that they are replaced, but it's far more likely that they'll just change out of necessity. We just have to make it necessary.
 
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I just had a fairly terrifying thought.

If a strong, viable and popular third party party can't rise up in the middle of THIS partisan disaster, maybe it never CAN.

Is it possible that independent and moderate voices are now so unwelcome in both "major" parties that they will no longer be allowed to see the light of day? Did we, as country, shut the door to independent and moderate thought so quickly and so firmly that they simply no longer have a place?

I hope I'm wrong here.
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Simple term limit Amendment would solve 90% of the problems in DC.
So would a non partisan Gerrymandering amendment.... Right now, the reason the old timers keep winning is they have gerrymandered their districts, so that they are guaranteed re-election.... we no longer get to choose our representatives, they are chosen for us.... even if we wanted our Rep gone gone gone, it is rigged so that this is a near impossibility.
Again, amendments and other top-down ‘solutions’ won’t work as long as voters remain apathetic and disengaged.

Indeed, the ‘old timers’ take advantage of that apathy and lack of engagement.

There could be three parties or ten, it wouldn’t make any difference.

Real change will come only when the people get involved and participate in the political process – that the people refuse to do so is what the ‘old timers’ count on to keep them in power.
 
The last thing the two parties want, and the last thing the hardcore partisan ideologues want, is a strong and viable third party. The plan is to "beat" the "other" party and then shove their agendas down our throat from one end of the spectrum.

They have too much to lose here, so they'll do or say absolutely anything they can to stop this from happening.

Or more likely... Third Parties usually start off as Fringe issue parties, which is why they either become small cults like the LIbertarians or Greens, or they die out after an election cycle or two.

The problem is, you guys want to start from the top down and not the bottom up.
 
I just had a fairly terrifying thought.

If a strong, viable and popular third party party can't rise up in the middle of THIS partisan disaster, maybe it never CAN.

Is it possible that independent and moderate voices are now so unwelcome in both "major" parties that they will no longer be allowed to see the light of day? Did we, as country, shut the door to independent and moderate thought so quickly and so firmly that they simply no longer have a place?

I hope I'm wrong here.
.
It has, and you haven't been paying attention.

You wont be happy until Republicans and Democrats meet on every issue in the mushy middle.

You have no principles other than compromising with evil.
 
I just had a fairly terrifying thought.

If a strong, viable and popular third party party can't rise up in the middle of THIS partisan disaster, maybe it never CAN.

Is it possible that independent and moderate voices are now so unwelcome in both "major" parties that they will no longer be allowed to see the light of day? Did we, as country, shut the door to independent and moderate thought so quickly and so firmly that they simply no longer have a place?

I hope I'm wrong here.
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A third party would need to incorporate a philosophical, cultural tradition to which a huge chunk of the electorate could relate. What tradition - outside the (economic) libertarian-conservative / liberal-progressive traditions - could that be? The OP doesn't say, and probably doesn't know.

A third party would need a galvanizing set of issues, societal / political problems afflicting a huge chunk of the electorate, which this new party, as empowered by its philosophical outlook, would be uniquely positioned to solve, whereas the other major parties are not. What issues could this be? The OP doesn't say, and probably doesn't know.

The current front-runner in the Democratic field is, last I checked, Biden - a solid centrist. Buttigieg is a centrist. Harris is arguably a centrist. Klobuchar is a centrist. That's just those off the top of my head; I am sure there are more. The OP's fearful contention that "independent and moderate voices [are] now [...] unwelcome in both 'major' parties" is quite obviously otherworldly. Not to mention incorrect. The underlying contention is the figment of the OP's very active imagination, the "hard-core left" that has taken over the Democratic party, when there is no such thing as a hard-core left in the U.S., none of any import or influence.

There is, however, a hard-core right, and, arguably, it has taken over the GOP. So, if there is a third party to be formed, it needs to rescue whatever serious, reasonable conservative thought and policy-making can be rescued from the current-day reactionary train-wreck that is the GOP, and hope to get national notoriety fast, and not least quite a number donors lined up.

All that would, of course, collapse into a two-party-system again, since the winner-takes-all voting system pretty much preforms that. The third party that poses the highest risk of a "vote thrown away" in a FPTP system dies in short order. How to change that voting system, and with what to replace it... the OP doesn't say, and probably doesn't know. He's fine grousing about the hard-core left he invented. The two parties remaining would, of course, be subject to the exact same (at least pretty much the same) societal, financial, economical forces as are the parties right now, they would have to fight for their respective bases' attention and support just as they do right now, and in short order the creation of that fabulous third party would result in the exact same thing the OP bemoans and decries, and has been for years. The lesson is, a third party doesn't solve a thing, particularly not the problems of an apathetic, ignorant electorate with a gigantic surplus of resentment and the attention-span of a gnat.

So, finally, how is it ever too late for anything? How is it possible to state with any confidence the conditions for an event are right at this time, and then never again? Short of nuclear self-elimination, that never happens, in the exact same way as "the end of history" never happens. Never. It was, however, "a fairly terrifying thought".
 
I just had a fairly terrifying thought.

If a strong, viable and popular third party party can't rise up in the middle of THIS partisan disaster, maybe it never CAN.

Is it possible that independent and moderate voices are now so unwelcome in both "major" parties that they will no longer be allowed to see the light of day? Did we, as country, shut the door to independent and moderate thought so quickly and so firmly that they simply no longer have a place?

I hope I'm wrong here.
.
It has, and you haven't been paying attention.

You wont be happy until Republicans and Democrats meet on every issue in the mushy middle.

You have no principles other than compromising with evil.
Here we go again. Always have to make it about me. Okay.

People who obediently stick to their tribe have no principals. They're more than happy to play along, do and say as they're told, and be a good little soldier.

You can be that way if you want. It's who you are. Not me.
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I just had a fairly terrifying thought.

If a strong, viable and popular third party party can't rise up in the middle of THIS partisan disaster, maybe it never CAN.

Is it possible that independent and moderate voices are now so unwelcome in both "major" parties that they will no longer be allowed to see the light of day? Did we, as country, shut the door to independent and moderate thought so quickly and so firmly that they simply no longer have a place?

I hope I'm wrong here.
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It could be done

I just don’t see the balls to do it
Yeah. It's not in the nature of independents and moderates to force something like this.

They're not pugilistic, my-way-or-nothing kinds of people.
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People who obediently stick to their tribe have no principals. They're more than happy to play along, do and say as they're told, and be a good little soldier
This is not reality. We vote for a candidate that most reflects our views. In my case that can never be a Democrat. Do I really need to explain why?

I vote for the candidate who most closely reflects the Founding Fathers. They are the standard by which I judge the candidates. It has NOTHING to do with the parties. That is something you seem unwilling to grasp.
 
I just had a fairly terrifying thought.

If a strong, viable and popular third party party can't rise up in the middle of THIS partisan disaster, maybe it never CAN.

Is it possible that independent and moderate voices are now so unwelcome in both "major" parties that they will no longer be allowed to see the light of day? Did we, as country, shut the door to independent and moderate thought so quickly and so firmly that they simply no longer have a place?

I hope I'm wrong here.
.
It is not in the interests of the two parties to allow a third to get a foothold in the door. That is not a new phenomenon.
 
Yeah. It's not in the nature of independents and moderates to force something like this.

They're not pugilistic, my-way-or-nothing kinds of people.

Okay.. Fair enough.

News Alert. Politics tends to be a pugilistic endeavor. If you are asking someone to take time out of his schedule to show up at a voting place and vote, you'd better have something he's passionate enough about to show up and vote for.

American Political parties tend to be coalitions of interest groups. As long as all the interest groups feel their interests are being somewhat represented, they'll keep voting for the two major parties.

So let's say we get what I am guess Mac says he wants, which is a third party that is conservative on economic issues but liberal on social issues.

Why would the social conservatives vote for such a party? They wouldn't. Why would the economic liberals?

Now, the Social LIberals might be attracted, but they are already getting what they need from the Democrats. The Economic Conservatives are already getting what they want from the Republicans, and they'll always have enough influence to get their mistresses to somewhere they can get a legal abortion.
 
It is not in the interests of the two parties to allow a third to get a foothold in the door. That is not a new phenomenon.

Actually, the two parties might have an interest in third parties.

For instance, a lot of rich Republicans I suspect are the ones bankrolling the Green Party. They take just enough away from Democrats to give them a fighting shot. (They'd have lost outright in 2000 and 2016 if it weren't for the greens.)

Now, if you guys were serious about a third party growing, the first and best way to do it would be to get rid of the Electoral College in favor of a system like France has. All the parties run in the first round, if no one gets 50%+1, then it goes to a second round of voting.

It would allow third parties to grow without them being spoilers.
 
I just had a fairly terrifying thought.

If a strong, viable and popular third party party can't rise up in the middle of THIS partisan disaster, maybe it never CAN.

Is it possible that independent and moderate voices are now so unwelcome in both "major" parties that they will no longer be allowed to see the light of day? Did we, as country, shut the door to independent and moderate thought so quickly and so firmly that they simply no longer have a place?

I hope I'm wrong here.
.

I thought the Libertarian Party had a solid candidate in the 2016 election. Especially considering the competition.

I think the American people are just a lost cause and follow like sheep.
 
It is not in the interests of the two parties to allow a third to get a foothold in the door. That is not a new phenomenon.

Actually, the two parties might have an interest in third parties.

For instance, a lot of rich Republicans I suspect are the ones bankrolling the Green Party. They take just enough away from Democrats to give them a fighting shot. (They'd have lost outright in 2000 and 2016 if it weren't for the greens.)

Now, if you guys were serious about a third party growing, the first and best way to do it would be to get rid of the Electoral College in favor of a system like France has. All the parties run in the first round, if no one gets 50%+1, then it goes to a second round of voting.

It would allow third parties to grow without them being spoilers.
Yeah, the two dominant parties are going to agree to a Constitutional Amendment that will weaken their dominance. Somehow I don't see that happening.

Do you also think the Democrats are bankrolling the Libertarians?
 
I just had a fairly terrifying thought.

If a strong, viable and popular third party party can't rise up in the middle of THIS partisan disaster, maybe it never CAN.

Is it possible that independent and moderate voices are now so unwelcome in both "major" parties that they will no longer be allowed to see the light of day? Did we, as country, shut the door to independent and moderate thought so quickly and so firmly that they simply no longer have a place?

I hope I'm wrong here.
.

I thought the Libertarian Party had a solid candidate in the 2016 election. Especially considering the competition.

I think the American people are just a lost cause and follow like sheep.

A big part of the problem is our election system. Lesser-of-two-evils ensures that third party candidates will never get many votes. Especially when things are so divided politically. Add to that a primary system that pretty much guarantees that we'll have two "evils" to choose from, and it's hard to see a light at the end of the tunnel.
 

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