Cost of tax breaks

[itfitzme]

The tax code for the 98% is very straightforward and relatively simple.

The tax code for the wealthy is not.

Those who can afford an army of tax lawyers and tax preparers are the ones who own congress. And, of course, the teepubs (aka Koch's little minions) will always protect them.

Tax code has no effect on Dem base, they're all about "gimme gimme gimme!"

Well, not exactly, seems 51% of registered low income voters are registered as Independent. Close though.

How Income Divides Democrats, Republicans, And Independents : Planet Money : NPR

 

[Trajan]

Why didn't the Democrats change this when they had a super majority in Congress from 2009 to 2011?

Because it didnt exist
The Democratic Super Majority Myth | 538 Refugees

exactly. They keep trotting that out even though its been debunked.

from the link:

This was just barely enough time to pass the biggest and most difficult health care legislation in generations; an event that would likely never have happened under any other circumstances. This also happened under the onslaught of every procedural obstruction the Republicans could put in its path.

so your excuse it they didn't have time? or they didn't have it ?

make up your mind, the fact is they did and again, for like the 10th time, to enact tax/ budgetary legislation they use reconciliation, this short circuits the cloture provision by starting a clock to close debate, meaning,........ready? they only needed 51 votes...which they always had....

the link tries its best to obscure that fact, yes fact that they had from April thru Christmas the 3/5ths they need to override a filibuster.

 

[Trajan]

CBO: Tax Breaks Cost $12 Trillion Over Decade, Benefit Most Wealthy

Why don't tax payers demand change from their congress person? Why do we keep re-electing the same Republican congress people that rob us?

We should all get together and demand that the CBO stop lying, tax breaks do not cost anyone anything.

You forgot to mention the BLS, the BEA, the Federal Reserve, 90% of the media, the IPCC, and the entire body of academics.

It is interesting, I've noticed, that the peoplenthat most accuse others of lying are people who have a tendency to lie. Its likemdrug addicts that think everyone uses drugs, alcholics that think everyone drinks, and child abusers that think every parent beats their kids, they all are just good at hiding it. Curious phenomina... we expect of others what we know ourselves to be.

they use language advantageous to their outlook, that attempts to obscure the fact that, labor = earnings comes first, taxes upon such, there after...if you wish to play their semantical game, have it , but it doesn't make it true. If they decide to tax everyone at 80% they have 'lost' or, it has 'cost them' 20%? come on man.....its a word game....

to make their outlook a trusim, then, one must say that every cent earned is the gov's first and they allow us to keep what they decide to.....is that really how it works? No, you know it isn't.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The tax code for the 98% is very straightforward and relatively simple.

The tax code for the wealthy is not.

Those who can afford an army of tax lawyers and tax preparers are the ones who own congress. And, of course, the teepubs (aka Koch's little minions) will always protect them.

Have you ever done taxes? Do you have any idea how complicated it is to figure your taxes if you actually do the math yourself?

Yes and it is about as easy as math comes. Follow the directions; step 1-write amount from box 5 of w-2 on this line. Step 2-Multiply box 2 by $1,500 and enter number here. Step 3- Subtract amount on line 5 from amount on line 4 and enter it on line 6.

If you want, and it says so on the form, you can just enter the numbers from your W-2 and any 1099s then sign and send it in, the IRS will finish it for you.

Was a time when we had to balance our checkbook once a month.

That $1,500 is in lieu of actually figuring out all your deductions, figuring out your taxable income, doing the math to figure out your taxes, and then apply your proper tax bracket to your actual deductions. Believe it or not, Bill Gates can take exactly the same route if he wants to, be just prefers to pay someone to do the math.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Because it didnt exist
The Democratic Super Majority Myth | 538 Refugees

Your link is very careful in explaining that the Democrats had a super majority from April 2009 to January 2010.

Good, thank for saving me the effort. 2010 is less than 2011.

Doesn't change the fact that they had plenty of time to do whatever they want.

 

[itfitzme]

Because it didnt exist
The Democratic Super Majority Myth | 538 Refugees

exactly. They keep trotting that out even though its been debunked.

from the link:

This was just barely enough time to pass the biggest and most difficult health care legislation in generations; an event that would likely never have happened under any other circumstances. This also happened under the onslaught of every procedural obstruction the Republicans could put in its path.

so your excuse it they didn't have time? or they didn't have it ?

make up your mind, the fact is they did and again, for like the 10th time, to enact tax/ budgetary legislation they use reconciliation, this short circuits the cloture provision by starting a clock to close debate, meaning,........ready? they only needed 51 votes...which they always had....

the link tries its best to obscure that fact, yes fact that they had from April thru Christmas the 3/5ths they need to override a filibuster.

Here are some interesting numbers.


2012: 61; By august, old article
2011: 90;*
2010: 258; <-a more productive year,
2009: 125; The year in question?
2008: 280;*
2007: 180;*
2006: 313;

"Just 61 bills have become law to date in 2012 out of 3,914 bills that have been introduced", or 2%. That was by August. So they would have reached, what, 81 for the year, est.?

This Congress could be least productive since 1947 ? USATODAY.com

 

[itfitzme]

Your link is very careful in explaining that the Democrats had a super majority from April 2009 to January 2010.

Good, thank for saving me the effort. 2010 is less than 2011.

Doesn't change the fact that they had plenty of time to do whatever they want.

Oops, bad, January 2010 is more like 2009 than 2010.

So that is what, 10 months. That is like almost an infinite amount.

I am pretty sure they did do "whatever".

 

[flacaltenn]

From the OP:

Further, 17 percent of the total benefits would go to the top 1 percent of income earners -- families earning roughly $450,000 or more. The same group that was hit with a tax rate hike in January.

The benefits of preferential tax rates on capital gains and dividends, a break worth $161 billion this year, go almost entirely to the wealthy, including 68 percent to the top one percent of earners.

:yawn: :bigyawn:

I really don't care that some folks (not many) have bigger houses than me. When I lived in Cali and bought a new house (because of Prop 13) I had to pay $7200 a year and my neighbor (almost identical house) next door was only paying $1800 a year in property taxes, did I contemplate "fairness"? You bet.. But did I want the old codger to be priced out of his house by taxes? No way...

Do I care that Warren Buffet gets a Social Security check like the rest of us? Nawww....

What I DO care about is why we can't all agree to end CORPORATE welfare in the form of tax breaks that caused GE to pay no net taxes? All because they get $75 bucks back on their tax bill for every dishwasher they sell. And a couple hundred for every wind turbine they produce.

...............Oh, you say those are GREEN tax breaks?? Good for the Planet??? Get off my cloud with the rest of your partisian hack clowns.

Stop subsidizing stuff that is already in the marketplace. The fact we can't fix THAT --- explains why everyone on the LEFT and RIGHT wants to whine about class envy....

 

[Montrovant]

It seems to obvious that some, if not most, deductions and tax breaks in our ridiculously bloated tax code were put in place to help some small segment of the population with good lobbying support. A lot of different 'corporate welfare' types of things, ways to avoid paying taxes by shuffling money around, things that can only be done when a person or business has enough money.

I often think people try to oversimplify political issues, but in the case of our tax system, I really think we would be much better served to simplify it. It's not a partisan issue; neither Democrats nor Republicans have done anything to simplify the tax code that I'm aware of, just the opposite in fact. It's not a current issue; this has been an ongoing process for many years. It has nothing to do with a specific administration or congress. It's just part of the corrupt, you-scratch-my-back cesspool that is politics.

I'd like to see the tax code simplified, but I don't expect it.

 

[Mr. H.]

It seems to obvious that some, if not most, deductions and tax breaks in our ridiculously bloated tax code were put in place to help some small segment of the population with good lobbying support. A lot of different 'corporate welfare' types of things, ways to avoid paying taxes by shuffling money around, things that can only be done when a person or business has enough money.

I often think people try to oversimplify political issues, but in the case of our tax system, I really think we would be much better served to simplify it. It's not a partisan issue; neither Democrats nor Republicans have done anything to simplify the tax code that I'm aware of, just the opposite in fact. It's not a current issue; this has been an ongoing process for many years. It has nothing to do with a specific administration or congress. It's just part of the corrupt, you-scratch-my-back cesspool that is politics.

I'd like to see the tax code simplified, but I don't expect it.

Operating a business concern is no "simple" issue.

Business was born long before the corporation was born, or the lobby for that matter.

Taxes are levied on "adjusted gross income". Gross income is "adjusted" because in order to produce more income, businesses must spend their income. That's referred to as reinvestment of capital.

And their income is just that... theirs.

The more income a business retains, the more business it can regenerate.

The more government takes from business, the less that business is able to regenerate yet more business.

Get the picture?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It seems to obvious that some, if not most, deductions and tax breaks in our ridiculously bloated tax code were put in place to help some small segment of the population with good lobbying support. A lot of different 'corporate welfare' types of things, ways to avoid paying taxes by shuffling money around, things that can only be done when a person or business has enough money.

I often think people try to oversimplify political issues, but in the case of our tax system, I really think we would be much better served to simplify it. It's not a partisan issue; neither Democrats nor Republicans have done anything to simplify the tax code that I'm aware of, just the opposite in fact. It's not a current issue; this has been an ongoing process for many years. It has nothing to do with a specific administration or congress. It's just part of the corrupt, you-scratch-my-back cesspool that is politics.

I'd like to see the tax code simplified, but I don't expect it.

I'd like to see it myself. I just refuse to allow the premise that tax cuts cost the government money to stand unchallenged.

 

[The Rabbi]

The tax code for the 98% is very straightforward and relatively simple.

The tax code for the wealthy is not.

Those who can afford an army of tax lawyers and tax preparers are the ones who own congress. And, of course, the teepubs (aka Koch's little minions) will always protect them.

Never thought I'd hear you arguing for a Flat Tax. Welcome to the GOP!

 

[The Rabbi]

It seems to obvious that some, if not most, deductions and tax breaks in our ridiculously bloated tax code were put in place to help some small segment of the population with good lobbying support. A lot of different 'corporate welfare' types of things, ways to avoid paying taxes by shuffling money around, things that can only be done when a person or business has enough money.

I often think people try to oversimplify political issues, but in the case of our tax system, I really think we would be much better served to simplify it. It's not a partisan issue; neither Democrats nor Republicans have done anything to simplify the tax code that I'm aware of, just the opposite in fact. It's not a current issue; this has been an ongoing process for many years. It has nothing to do with a specific administration or congress. It's just part of the corrupt, you-scratch-my-back cesspool that is politics.

I'd like to see the tax code simplified, but I don't expect it.

I'd like to see it myself. I just refuse to allow the premise that tax cuts cost the government money to stand unchallenged.

Some do, some don't. The cap gains tax cut always brings in more revenue than was supposedly lost. Tax credits for cash for clunkers and the like always end up costing more and do nothing to aid the economy.

 

[FA_Q2]

Good, thank for saving me the effort. 2010 is less than 2011.

Doesn't change the fact that they had plenty of time to do whatever they want.

Oops, bad, January 2010 is more like 2009 than 2010.

So that is what, 10 months. That is like almost an infinite amount.

I am pretty sure they did do "whatever".

Far more than enough time to simply cancel the tax breaks. The law that accomplished that would have been a whole paragraph in length. The excuses are simply avoiding facing the fact the democrats are not interested in actually fixing the tax code just as the republicans are not interested in it.

Rates are meaningless anyway. The real culprit has always been the convoluted tax code. THAT is what needs to be addressed.

 

[Sactowndog]

Deductions, credits, and exclusions keep money circulating in the economy and it gets reinvested back into business activity.

What the fuck would the government do with all that money anyway?

Really? What percentage of those capital gains tax breaks and corporate tax breaks are for investments overseas? I can tell you well over half my portfolio is invested overseas and not doing a damn thing for the US economy. Pretty sure I am not alone. But if Repulican Congressmen supported by simple minded people like yourself want to keep giving me a tax break I am happy to keep it.

Perhaps if the South invested a little money in educating their populace they would understand the fallacy of statements like yours.

 

[Trajan]

exactly. They keep trotting that out even though its been debunked.

from the link:

so your excuse it they didn't have time? or they didn't have it ?

make up your mind, the fact is they did and again, for like the 10th time, to enact tax/ budgetary legislation they use reconciliation, this short circuits the cloture provision by starting a clock to close debate, meaning,........ready? they only needed 51 votes...which they always had....

the link tries its best to obscure that fact, yes fact that they had from April thru Christmas the 3/5ths they need to override a filibuster.

Here are some interesting numbers.


2012: 61; By august, old article
2011: 90;*
2010: 258; <-a more productive year,
2009: 125; The year in question?
2008: 280;*
2007: 180;*
2006: 313;

"Just 61 bills have become law to date in 2012 out of 3,914 bills that have been introduced", or 2%. That was by August. So they would have reached, what, 81 for the year, est.?

This Congress could be least productive since 1947 ? USATODAY.com

what is your point? exactly?

 

[Sactowndog]

It seems to obvious that some, if not most, deductions and tax breaks in our ridiculously bloated tax code were put in place to help some small segment of the population with good lobbying support. A lot of different 'corporate welfare' types of things, ways to avoid paying taxes by shuffling money around, things that can only be done when a person or business has enough money.

I often think people try to oversimplify political issues, but in the case of our tax system, I really think we would be much better served to simplify it. It's not a partisan issue; neither Democrats nor Republicans have done anything to simplify the tax code that I'm aware of, just the opposite in fact. It's not a current issue; this has been an ongoing process for many years. It has nothing to do with a specific administration or congress. It's just part of the corrupt, you-scratch-my-back cesspool that is politics.

I'd like to see the tax code simplified, but I don't expect it.

I'd like to see it myself. I just refuse to allow the premise that tax cuts cost the government money to stand unchallenged.

Some do, some don't. The cap gains tax cut always brings in more revenue than was supposedly lost. Tax credits for cash for clunkers and the like always end up costing more and do nothing to aid the economy.

Always ignores some simple facts like in the 1980's most people had 100% of their portfolio invested in domestic stocks and bonds. It would be fair to say historically it has generated more revenue than it cost. It would be foolish to ignore the globalization of investing and corporations and assume the same would be true going forward.

 

[Trajan]

Good, thank for saving me the effort. 2010 is less than 2011.

Doesn't change the fact that they had plenty of time to do whatever they want.

Oops, bad, January 2010 is more like 2009 than 2010.

So that is what, 10 months. That is like almost an infinite amount.

I am pretty sure they did do "whatever".

look, they had a 'session' with the 3/5ths.

the majority leader decides what and when bills are debated and when and how they get to the floor for an up or down vote.

He can bypass the committee process, put the bill on the senate calender directly (rule 14) he can then can block amendments by filling the 'amendment tree', then move for a cloture vote and viola, is it any wonder you get a filibuster? And yes the use of such has gone up exponentially from the past, from 81- thru 06 there were less than 90 cloture votes, by 2010 there were 140...

 

[Sactowndog]

From the OP:

Further, 17 percent of the total benefits would go to the top 1 percent of income earners -- families earning roughly $450,000 or more. The same group that was hit with a tax rate hike in January.

The benefits of preferential tax rates on capital gains and dividends, a break worth $161 billion this year, go almost entirely to the wealthy, including 68 percent to the top one percent of earners.

:yawn: :bigyawn:

I really don't care that some folks (not many) have bigger houses than me. When I lived in Cali and bought a new house (because of Prop 13) I had to pay $7200 a year and my neighbor (almost identical house) next door was only paying $1800 a year in property taxes, did I contemplate "fairness"? You bet.. But did I want the old codger to be priced out of his house by taxes? No way...

Do I care that Warren Buffet gets a Social Security check like the rest of us? Nawww....

What I DO care about is why we can't all agree to end CORPORATE welfare in the form of tax breaks that caused GE to pay no net taxes? All because they get $75 bucks back on their tax bill for every dishwasher they sell. And a couple hundred for every wind turbine they produce.

...............Oh, you say those are GREEN tax breaks?? Good for the Planet??? Get off my cloud with the rest of your partisian hack clowns.

Stop subsidizing stuff that is already in the marketplace. The fact we can't fix THAT --- explains why everyone on the LEFT and RIGHT wants to whine about class envy....

Are you willing to end oil and gas exploration subsidies as well or just the ones you politically don't like?

 

[Montrovant]

It seems to obvious that some, if not most, deductions and tax breaks in our ridiculously bloated tax code were put in place to help some small segment of the population with good lobbying support. A lot of different 'corporate welfare' types of things, ways to avoid paying taxes by shuffling money around, things that can only be done when a person or business has enough money.

I often think people try to oversimplify political issues, but in the case of our tax system, I really think we would be much better served to simplify it. It's not a partisan issue; neither Democrats nor Republicans have done anything to simplify the tax code that I'm aware of, just the opposite in fact. It's not a current issue; this has been an ongoing process for many years. It has nothing to do with a specific administration or congress. It's just part of the corrupt, you-scratch-my-back cesspool that is politics.

I'd like to see the tax code simplified, but I don't expect it.

Operating a business concern is no "simple" issue.

Business was born long before the corporation was born, or the lobby for that matter.

Taxes are levied on "adjusted gross income". Gross income is "adjusted" because in order to produce more income, businesses must spend their income. That's referred to as reinvestment of capital.

And their income is just that... theirs.

The more income a business retains, the more business it can regenerate.

The more government takes from business, the less that business is able to regenerate yet more business.

Get the picture?

I'm not sure why you thought this was a good response to my post.

I didn't mean to imply that running a business was simple.

I didn't mean to imply that businesses in general need more taxes taken from them.

Simplifying tax codes could, depending on what you changed to, mean businesses pay less in taxes, generally speaking.

I just feel that the many, many different deductions, loopholes and the like make for a far too irregular levying of taxes. If an individual or business is supposed to pay, say, 35% of their income in federal taxes, and they actually pay only 15%, that just seems silly. It's especially concerning if most people or businesses in that particular bracket actually do pay 35% because they either are unaware of the particular loopholes, or perhaps are in the wrong area to take advantage of them, or cannot afford the team of lawyers and accountants to move their resources around to take advantage.

That we have an entire industry dedicated to helping people and businesses with their taxes is a clear indication, at least in my mind, that the tax codes are far too complex.

But again, I certainly don't mean to say that businesses need to pay more.