Corruption of Government. Who is to blame?

[Quantum Windbag]

Vague forces are not so vague. Of course the proponents of some forces would have you believe those forces are vague and benign.

So the Communist system and the Capitalist system had no effect as systems, on the world's governmental systems, throughout the later half of the 20th century? that is your position?

If you want a civics lesson you are going to have to find someone else to sucker into supplying it. Suffice it to say that the communist system, and the capitalist system, were both controlled by the different governments to different extents, not the other way around.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

note: keep this post on top of list

A 'genuine' free market? I see.

The economy is influenced by the type of market, so does not the economy and the market influence government?

Is this invisible hand so invisible it cannot be perceived of or grasped in the material world? Is it god?

How about this. You explain to me how you think a free market would influence the government, and we'll go from there.

I'll do that later. Maybe start a new thread.

note: keep this post on top of list

Well when you see fit to do that we can continue the discussion.

 

[uscitizen]

Our govt is more and more controlled by corporations.

People can live in a free market fantasy if they choose.
I dwell a bit more in reality than that.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Our govt is more and more controlled by corporations.

People can live in a free market fantasy if they choose.
I dwell a bit more in reality than that.

What you're describing is corporatism, and has nothing to do with capitalism or free markets.

 

[uscitizen]

Our govt is more and more controlled by corporations.

People can live in a free market fantasy if they choose.
I dwell a bit more in reality than that.

What you're describing is corporatism, and has nothing to do with capitalism or free markets.

OK I give up I can't figure out who "free markets" is supposedly made of.
Obviously not corporations.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Our govt is more and more controlled by corporations.

People can live in a free market fantasy if they choose.
I dwell a bit more in reality than that.

What you're describing is corporatism, and has nothing to do with capitalism or free markets.

OK I give up I can't figure out who "free markets" is supposedly made of.
Obviously not corporations.

A free market is where the government does not get involved in the economy at all. No regulations, no subsidies, no special favors, etc... etc... Once the government gets involved it's obviously not a free market. When businesses start getting kick backs and special favors from the government we have corporatism.

 

[uscitizen]

What you're describing is corporatism, and has nothing to do with capitalism or free markets.

OK I give up I can't figure out who "free markets" is supposedly made of.
Obviously not corporations.

A free market is where the government does not get involved in the economy at all. No regulations, no subsidies, no special favors, etc... etc... Once the government gets involved it's obviously not a free market. When businesses start getting kick backs and special favors from the government we have corporatism.

As I have said, free markets can only exist in fantasy land.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Vague forces are not so vague. Of course the proponents of some forces would have you believe those forces are vague and benign.

So the Communist system and the Capitalist system had no effect as systems, on the world's governmental systems, throughout the later half of the 20th century? that is your position?

If you want a civics lesson you are going to have to find someone else to sucker into supplying it. Suffice it to say that the communist system, and the capitalist system, were both controlled by the different governments to different extents, not the other way around.

I think you keep making the mistake of speaking about individual governments and not the governmental systems. You also appear to be struggling with the concept of economic systems separate from governmental systems. If so, you need much more than a civics lesson.

Your position is that the Communist and Capitalist economic systems of the later half of the 20th century had no effect on the systems of governments that embraced those economic systems, as well as having no effect upon the systems of government all over the world?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

What you're describing is corporatism, and has nothing to do with capitalism or free markets.

OK I give up I can't figure out who "free markets" is supposedly made of.
Obviously not corporations.

A free market is where the government does not get involved in the economy at all. No regulations, no subsidies, no special favors, etc... etc... Once the government gets involved it's obviously not a free market. When businesses start getting kick backs and special favors from the government we have corporatism.

That is an extreme view not supported by the fathers of the free market idea.

 

[uscitizen]

As I said, Fantasy.

 

[marksinvirginia]

The government plunders the people by threat of imprisonment... then gives back just enough to dissuade open revolt. Then 'the people' lick their boots and return them to office in order to avoid having their allowances cut off. They [the government] then proceed to to grant themselves all the money and benefits they want through commissions extracted from government hand-outs... supposedly made for the benefit of those whom they just plundered. The 'stupid class' is afraid to break the cycle; or isn't even aware of the cycle.

Government corruption is totally the fault of the electorate, who are happy with the crumbs from the federal table. If the people complain, the government deflects the blame for their troubles upon the evil, greedy, rich. Now, being deliberately trained, by government schools, to be stupid... they swallow government corruption just as planned.


~Mark

 

[MikeK]

Corruption in our government will inevitably reduce the U.S. to third world status but the means of preventing it would require exceptional prudence on the part of the voting public.

There needs to be one Congressman willing to introduce two bills, one that would provide for all federal elections to be financed by public funds and one that would make it a felony for any federal official to accept any form of contribution, gratuity or anything of value from any individual or entity for any reason. The names of all representatives who vote no on that proposition must then be publicized and voted out of office in the next election.

The possibility of this democracy surviving exists in direct proportion to the possibility of such a bill being introduced and passed.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Corruption in our government will inevitably reduce the U.S. to third world status but the means of preventing it would require exceptional prudence on the part of the voting public.

There needs to be one Congressman willing to introduce two bills, one that would provide for all federal elections to be financed by public funds and one that would make it a felony for any federal official to accept any form of contribution, gratuity or anything of value from any individual or entity for any reason. The names of all representatives who vote no on that proposition must then be publicized and voted out of office in the next election.

The possibility of this democracy surviving exists in direct proportion to the possibility of such a bill being introduced and passed.

Mike, corruption of our governmental system, not corruption of our current government. and your speech is as delusional as the one by the poster before you.

do you people even know how to express ideas and debate or argue without making pathetic speeches full of populist or progressive nitwitticisms?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

note: keep this post on top of list

A 'genuine' free market? I see.

The economy is influenced by the type of market, so does not the economy and the market influence government?

Is this invisible hand so invisible it cannot be perceived of or grasped in the material world? Is it god?

How about this. You explain to me how you think a free market would influence the government, and we'll go from there.

I'll do that later. Maybe start a new thread.

note: keep this post on top of list

With you it will always come down to "we never had purely a free market" so the conversation goes nowhere.

Unless you are willing to acknowledge that for a few decades the developed and developing world's economies were moving towards a free market with free market reforms, we get nowhere. The deregulation and more, of the last 30 years or so are what is commonly understood by the terms 'free market' or 'free market reforms'

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Vague forces are not so vague. Of course the proponents of some forces would have you believe those forces are vague and benign.

So the Communist system and the Capitalist system had no effect as systems, on the world's governmental systems, throughout the later half of the 20th century? that is your position?

If you want a civics lesson you are going to have to find someone else to sucker into supplying it. Suffice it to say that the communist system, and the capitalist system, were both controlled by the different governments to different extents, not the other way around.

I think you keep making the mistake of speaking about individual governments and not the governmental systems. You also appear to be struggling with the concept of economic systems separate from governmental systems. If so, you need much more than a civics lesson.

Your position is that the Communist and Capitalist economic systems of the later half of the 20th century had no effect on the systems of governments that embraced those economic systems, as well as having no effect upon the systems of government all over the world?

Governmental systems? Just what do you think these things are? Every single communist nation uses a different version of communism, non of which resemble true communism in any way. The same is true of the capitalist nations, so what government system are you talking about? Is there some sort of secret plot to control the world that you are privy to that the rest of us, sane people, missed the memo on?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

note: keep this post on top of list

How about this. You explain to me how you think a free market would influence the government, and we'll go from there.

I'll do that later. Maybe start a new thread.

note: keep this post on top of list

With you it will always come down to "we never had purely a free market" so the conversation goes nowhere.

Unless you are willing to acknowledge that for a few decades the developed and developing world's economies were moving towards a free market with free market reforms, we get nowhere. The deregulation and more, of the last 30 years or so are what is commonly understood by the terms 'free market' or 'free market reforms'

You arguing with yourself again?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

OK I give up I can't figure out who "free markets" is supposedly made of.
Obviously not corporations.

A free market is where the government does not get involved in the economy at all. No regulations, no subsidies, no special favors, etc... etc... Once the government gets involved it's obviously not a free market. When businesses start getting kick backs and special favors from the government we have corporatism.

That is an extreme view not supported by the fathers of the free market idea.

If you're referring to the great plagiarist Adam Smith, then perhaps not. However, the true fathers of free markets and capitalism, such as Richard Cantillon, yes that would be exactly the case.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

note: keep this post on top of list

How about this. You explain to me how you think a free market would influence the government, and we'll go from there.

I'll do that later. Maybe start a new thread.

note: keep this post on top of list

With you it will always come down to "we never had purely a free market" so the conversation goes nowhere.

Unless you are willing to acknowledge that for a few decades the developed and developing world's economies were moving towards a free market with free market reforms, we get nowhere. The deregulation and more, of the last 30 years or so are what is commonly understood by the terms 'free market' or 'free market reforms'

You're a stickler on definitions of words, such as "organization" and "government" in this very thread, until it comes to the term "free market."

 

[Big Fitz]

Your arguments would carry weight if they were flushed out, both for and against.

Don't shit yourself because I actually addressed something of yours seriously. What precisely do you mean 'FLESHED OUT... for and against?" I'm not for the status quo. Why should I bother producing ideas to maintain it?

The paying for voting thing is interesting. I suspect like all dogooder ideas the law of unintended consequences would make that one a huge joke in record time. .

That's why this is not a 'payment'. It's a refund. If you don't pay taxes, you have no skin in the game and really, I couldn't care less if you vote or not, so you get the least amount of discount off your income taxes. On the other hand, if you pay a lot in taxes, you are obviously making something work in the economy (unless you're a government employee) and therefore deserve a greater break.

Remember this economic fact: Subsidize what you want more of, tax what you want less of. I want more voting, so I subsidize it through a credit, not a payment. They only get to keep more of what they earned.

Big difference. Australia takes another tactic. They fine you for not voting. I feel it's the right of people to be apathetic.

Public sector unions? What percentage of the populace is the public sector union vote?

SEIU ring any bells? They are a significant political force that needs it's neck broken. And that's just one. The NEA, is another large corrupt union throwing millions of dollars into elections and funding 'get out the vote drives', and abusing their positions of authority to brainwash their charges in the schools through their members.

"Prevent lobbyists from exercising their rights under the Constitution or what? You asking for regulation or laws..bigger government?

Give it a rest. You're condoning bribery now? Even you, Dante, are smarter than that... aren't you?

Decentralizing government? Sorry, the Articles of Confederation were a disaster and decentralizing government is so broad a term as to be meaningless in any context.

I did not SAY revert to a confederacy. I am saying decentralize. Move the politicians home and communicate with their committees and debates via electronic methods. That forces lobbying firms and other political miscreants to scatter to all 50 states and breaks up the "Georgetown Cocktail Party Set" as a shitty little Versailles court of the unworthy. The added benefit is that they spend more time directly in front of their constituents feeling the heat for their bad choices. Save them going to Washington except for things too big to do electronically.

Bribery and voter fraud are already illegal. They are not capital offenses and should not be. Why? Sanity.

When's the last time you heard of a sitting congresscritter go to prison for it? How about never?

So, if I'm a megacorp and bribe officials to look the other way while making another Love Canal in your neighborhood that gives your children and 750 others all leukemia causing them to die in 5 years, they shouldn't be held for directly accountable for mass murder? I think they should be. Then again, the death penalty should be quickly implemented the old fashioned way, firing squad or hanging when convicted of a capital crime (shut the fuck up Bfgrn if you show).

I want politicians scared to death that committing a crime of this type and will be very leery of taking 'gifts' for political influence. Very afraid. Keeps them honest if they can die for it when they have a gun to their head.

Term limits have fucked up places like California.

Proof? The only thing I've seen fucked up are the citizens in every metropolitan area. I can't speak for small town California. What's really fucked them up though now that I think about it has been bailouts from the fed and state bailouts to the municipalities. They need to suffer the consequences of their fucking stupid choices and turn into sewers so people throw the idiots out and never make that mistake again.

but thanks for trying. next time get more specific.

How often do you post stoned? All the time or only 99%?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

If you want a civics lesson you are going to have to find someone else to sucker into supplying it. Suffice it to say that the communist system, and the capitalist system, were both controlled by the different governments to different extents, not the other way around.

I think you keep making the mistake of speaking about individual governments and not the governmental systems. You also appear to be struggling with the concept of economic systems separate from governmental systems. If so, you need much more than a civics lesson.

Your position is that the Communist and Capitalist economic systems of the later half of the 20th century had no effect on the systems of governments that embraced those economic systems, as well as having no effect upon the systems of government all over the world?

Governmental systems? Just what do you think these things are? Every single communist nation uses a different version of communism, non of which resemble true communism in any way. The same is true of the capitalist nations, so what government system are you talking about? Is there some sort of secret plot to control the world that you are privy to that the rest of us, sane people, missed the memo on?

Here is where people like you are always fall down. We are not speaking about Communism and Capitalism as systems of government. Communism and Capitalism are economic social-political systems or movements that have existed under systems of government like a Representative Republic, a Constitutional Monarchy, a Dictatorship, etc. Communism and Capitalism are NOT the systems of government.

sigh I just went and did a Google search for you. Please, do some research before you start talking out of your ass. List of forms of government - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And your idiotic attempt to argue whether any political system was pure or not gets to say whether those systems can be judged, is moronic.