Corruption of Government. Who is to blame?

Really? What is your beef against a representative republican form of democracy?

I believe he made it pretty clear.

"Who watches the Watchmen," so to speak.

The separation of powers and the checks and balances? That is my understanding. If the separation of powers broke down or if the checks and balances of our governmental were abolished, you'd have a point here. But they have not, and you do not.

As this country was created that Separation of Powers included The fact that Any power not given to the Fed in the Constitution belonged to the states. The Power of said states has steady eroded. So while they have not Broken down completely, they are eroding in some way.
 
Corruption of Government. Who is to blame?

None of the above. It is not who it is what. Power is to blame. Power corrupts.

A key reason I favor a less powerful Government. The more power we give them over us, the more they will have to use for corrupted aims.

Power corrupts who and what?

who? People Party does not seem to matter, Not all of them that we send to DC, but enough to ruin the whole system.

What? Everything they do, every law they pass, and dollar they spend.

The questions is who is to blame. Who corrupts the system of government we have? What influences?

Corruption of government is a narrow idea. People may think of corruption in general, but that is a side issue not easily discussed. It should be v-e-r-y easy, it should be v-e-r-y to point out what and who corrupts our government, our system.
 
Power corrupts who and what?

who? People Party does not seem to matter, Not all of them that we send to DC, but enough to ruin the whole system.

What? Everything they do, every law they pass, and dollar they spend.

The questions is who is to blame. Who corrupts the system of government we have? What influences?

So You want to blame those providing the means to corrupt it, and not the ones actually doing it?

Even if you removed all cooperate influence and union Influence and all the other special interests. Many people in power would still use that power to use the money we send them to reward the people they want to, and not others, To but votes. Or simply to steal away cash. Or what ever other self interest they have.

Limit the power, limit the corruption the comes of it.
 
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who? People Party does not seem to matter, Not all of them that we send to DC, but enough to ruin the whole system.

What? Everything they do, every law they pass, and dollar they spend.

The questions is who is to blame. Who corrupts the system of government we have? What influences?

So You want to blame those providing the means to corrupt it, and not the ones actually doing it?

Even if you removed all cooperate influence and Influence. Many people in power would still use that power to use the money we send them to reward the people they want to, and not others, To but votes. Or simply to steal away cash.

Limit the power, limit the corruption the comes of it.

Do we most go after drug dealers or users? Who do you think we should go after most in the so-called drug wars? I was not talking about personal responsibility for specific acts of corruption. That is lazy and a side issue. We were speaking about the government, meaning the system we have. It is hard to keep a discussion on topic with voices weighing in and it is also my fault for not being clearer.

Any individual person or any individual government (President/Congress) that is corrupt is incidental. I am speaking about the corruption of our system of government. Individuals and governments are easily replaced. They may have a corrupting influence upon the system itself, but they come and they go. The system stays.

"Limit power" is so broad a term as to be meaningless. Interpretations are left there to be debated. What does it mean to limit? How much? When?
 
Has anyone mentioned our 2 party political system as a corrupting influence on govt?

Well the is a key part of the problem for sure. the 2 partys ,even while they are at each others throats, conspire as well to make sure they are the only ones with a seat at the table of Power.
 
Of course not. How silly.
Expect someones opinion to change on a political message board?

btw the "free market" hires lobbyists don't they?
who pay off govt employees to benefit their corporations or industry.
Sounds kinda like the type of corruption we were discussing?

A free market exists when buyers and sellers make deals without any interference other than the economic laws of supply and demand. Since a free market is obviously not a corporation, or a person, or even an association, it cannot hire anyone.

And by your definition has not existed in America in some time.

It actually has, if you keep the transactions small enough, and ignore the arbitrary rules imposed by the various governments. On a larger scale I fully agree with you.
 
Has anyone mentioned our 2 party political system as a corrupting influence on govt?

Thank you. Out of the mouths of babes, or trolls, or whatever. :lol:

People have suggested this since the earliest rise of the party system, yet none has come up with a viable and credible alternative or solution to the issue. Sure, many fixes and bandaids. But holistic solutions? Are there really any? Is our system just what it is and is it up to us to keep watch over it?
 
It's about intervention now?

I asked: "Corruption of Government. Who is to blame? Is it the free market? "Who do you think corrupts government?"

Is corruption about influence? Do people and forces not influence government and thereby corrupt government? Are you saying outside influences do not corrupt government?

No. I'm saying the free market itself can't influence or corrupt government because the free market has nothing to do with the government. I'm not saying businesses can't lobby government for favors, or that people can't bribe government officials, or what have you. I'm saying that if you have a genuine free market, then the free market has nothing to do with government.

A 'genuine' free market? I see. :eusa_whistle:

The economy is influenced by the type of market, so does not the economy and the market influence government?

Is this invisible hand so invisible it cannot be perceived of or grasped in the material world? Is it god?

How about this. You explain to me how you think a free market would influence the government, and we'll go from there.
 
Really? What is your beef against a representative republican form of democracy?

I believe he made it pretty clear.

"Who watches the Watchmen," so to speak.

The separation of powers and the checks and balances? That is my understanding. If the separation of powers broke down or if the checks and balances of our governmental were abolished, you'd have a point here. But they have not, and you do not.

So different parts of the same organization are going to police each other? We see how well that's worked for us regarding corruption.
 
Has anyone mentioned our 2 party political system as a corrupting influence on govt?

Well the is a key part of the problem for sure. the 2 partys ,even while they are at each others throats, conspire as well to make sure they are the only ones with a seat at the table of Power.

I think it is unfair an unhelpful to frame things as conspiring. the simple fact that a party has a certain amount of leverage through membership determines a seat at the table of power. I'll grant that parties in power do not willingly give up power to others seeking to share, but so what? The role of a party is to acquire power. Just ask Thomas Jefferson, the first partisan party broker.
 
Has anyone mentioned our 2 party political system as a corrupting influence on govt?

Thank you. Out of the mouths of babes, or trolls, or whatever. :lol:

People have suggested this since the earliest rise of the party system, yet none has come up with a viable and credible alternative or solution to the issue. Sure, many fixes and bandaids. But holistic solutions? Are there really any? Is our system just what it is and is it up to us to keep watch over it?

So the fact that the 2 parties have power over who gets in the debates, and have written the laws about who gets Federal Funding. Has nothing to do with new parties being unable to gain a foot hold?
 
Has anyone mentioned our 2 party political system as a corrupting influence on govt?

Thank you. Out of the mouths of babes, or trolls, or whatever. :lol:

People have suggested this since the earliest rise of the party system, yet none has come up with a viable and credible alternative or solution to the issue. Sure, many fixes and bandaids. But holistic solutions? Are there really any? Is our system just what it is and is it up to us to keep watch over it?

thanks cap'n obvious.
 
It's about intervention now?

I asked: "Corruption of Government. Who is to blame? Is it the free market? "Who do you think corrupts government?"

Is corruption about influence? Do people and forces not influence government and thereby corrupt government? Are you saying outside influences do not corrupt government?

No. I'm saying the free market itself can't influence or corrupt government because the free market has nothing to do with the government. I'm not saying businesses can't lobby government for favors, or that people can't bribe government officials, or what have you. I'm saying that if you have a genuine free market, then the free market has nothing to do with government.

A 'genuine' free market? I see. :eusa_whistle:

The economy is influenced by the type of market, so does not the economy and the market influence government?

Is this invisible hand so invisible it cannot be perceived of or grasped in the material world? Is it god?

The government controls the type of market, which means you have the direction of influence backwards, as usual.
 
Has anyone mentioned our 2 party political system as a corrupting influence on govt?

Well the is a key part of the problem for sure. the 2 partys ,even while they are at each others throats, conspire as well to make sure they are the only ones with a seat at the table of Power.

I think it is unfair an unhelpful to frame things as conspiring. the simple fact that a party has a certain amount of leverage through membership determines a seat at the table of power. I'll grant that parties in power do not willingly give up power to others seeking to share, but so what? The role of a party is to acquire power. Just ask Thomas Jefferson, the first partisan party broker.

Calling Thomas Jefferson the first partisan party broker ignores Alexander Hamilton and the entire Federalist Party in the history of partisan politics in America.
 
No, he correctly stated that a free market has nothing to do with the government.

and I asked him "So you say free market forces have no effect on government?"

They cannot corrupt it, which is your question in the OP. Unless, that is, you accept the premise that vague forces control large groups of people.

Vague forces are not so vague. Of course the proponents of some forces would have you believe those forces are vague and benign. :lol:

So the Communist system and the Capitalist system had no effect as systems, on the world's governmental systems, throughout the later half of the 20th century? that is your position?
 
I believe he made it pretty clear.

"Who watches the Watchmen," so to speak.

The separation of powers and the checks and balances? That is my understanding. If the separation of powers broke down or if the checks and balances of our governmental were abolished, you'd have a point here. But they have not, and you do not.

So different parts of the same organization are going to police each other? We see how well that's worked for us regarding corruption.

Organization? We are speaking about a system of government, not an organization. Words matter here.
 
Has anyone mentioned our 2 party political system as a corrupting influence on govt?

Thank you. Out of the mouths of babes, or trolls, or whatever. :lol:

People have suggested this since the earliest rise of the party system, yet none has come up with a viable and credible alternative or solution to the issue. Sure, many fixes and bandaids. But holistic solutions? Are there really any? Is our system just what it is and is it up to us to keep watch over it?

So the fact that the 2 parties have power over who gets in the debates, and have written the laws about who gets Federal Funding. Has nothing to do with new parties being unable to gain a foot hold?
The debates are events between parties. They can be hosted by others, but they are party events. They owe as parties, nothing to anyone but their faithful, who are part of the electorate .. partisans.

The parties in power get to write the laws yes. It is how a representative republic functioning as a democracy, works.
 
note: keep this post on top of list

No. I'm saying the free market itself can't influence or corrupt government because the free market has nothing to do with the government. I'm not saying businesses can't lobby government for favors, or that people can't bribe government officials, or what have you. I'm saying that if you have a genuine free market, then the free market has nothing to do with government.

A 'genuine' free market? I see. :eusa_whistle:

The economy is influenced by the type of market, so does not the economy and the market influence government?

Is this invisible hand so invisible it cannot be perceived of or grasped in the material world? Is it god?

How about this. You explain to me how you think a free market would influence the government, and we'll go from there.

I'll do that later. Maybe start a new thread.

note: keep this post on top of list
 

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