corrupt US government blocks UN from having an independent investigation into 61 murdered palestines

[RoccoR]

RE: Corrupt US government blocks UN from having an independent investigation into 61 murdered palestinians.
※→ Coyote, et al,

Well, I think we might have to agree to disagree; ⇒ not on whether or not the Israelis did - or - did not shoot the Palestinian Journalist → but RATHER on ⇒ whether or not there is sufficient open source information for us to make a knowledgeable allegation.

No they are not three equal theories, because if the IDF had not shot him they sure as heck would have said so by now if only to clear their reputation.

(COMMENT)

I am sure that the police, intelligence, and security services are now (and have been since the beginning of the protest) combing through the imagery and acoustics with today's technology (as well as applying a whole host of other surveillance techniques) searching for associations, gaining new intelligence information and making connects.

I have seen shooting team investigations take considerable time to come to a result even when they have had complete control over the crime scene (not one almost instantly contaminated) and access to all the evidence.

This was a young man with talent, no known history of involvement with Hamas, who had had a background check done by the US agency prior to an award.

(COMMENT)

The possible connection with HAMAS (other than the normal accreditation through HAMAS) is really not known. Don't confuse "vetting" with a background investigation. It is not like the State Department had Diplomatic Security Service (DSS) Agents out of a Regional Security Office (RSO) running around GAZA and performing a background investigation (BI). We are talking about USAID grants to the "Ain Media Production Company." AND, we are not talking about a hardcore HAMAS operative, but rather an informant that sells his imagery to HAMAS.

(• ∑ •)

We simply do not know (yet) the character of the photojournalist Yaser Murtaja to make an informed descision.

We simply do not have the information necessary to determine the even which direction the shot came from, let alone who the assailant might have been.

It could be that the photojournalist Yaser Murtaja was squeaky clean and that the Israelis shot him for no reason. BUT we simply do not hold the evidence to support that theory.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[LA RAM FAN]

The IDF is apparently investigating this

Every time Israel investigates itself it finds itself not guilty.

Coincident that.

Yeah talk about the fox guarding the henhouse.Thats like trusting Bill "I NEVER HAD SEX WITH THIS WOMAN." Clinton to tell the truth if you asked him if he slept with any women recently.

 

[Coyote]

RE: Corrupt US government blocks UN from having an independent investigation into 61 murdered palestinians.
※→ Coyote, et al,

Well, I think we might have to agree to disagree; ⇒ not on whether or not the Israelis did - or - did not shoot the Palestinian Journalist → but RATHER on ⇒ whether or not there is sufficient open source information for us to make a knowledgeable allegation.

No they are not three equal theories, because if the IDF had not shot him they sure as heck would have said so by now if only to clear their reputation.

(COMMENT)

I am sure that the police, intelligence, and security services are now (and have been since the beginning of the protest) combing through the imagery and acoustics with today's technology (as well as applying a whole host of other surveillance techniques) searching for associations, gaining new intelligence information and making connects.

I have seen shooting team investigations take considerable time to come to a result even when they have had complete control over the crime scene (not one almost instantly contaminated) and access to all the evidence.

This was a young man with talent, no known history of involvement with Hamas, who had had a background check done by the US agency prior to an award.

(COMMENT)

The possible connection with HAMAS (other than the normal accreditation through HAMAS) is really not known. Don't confuse "vetting" with a background investigation. It is not like the State Department had Diplomatic Security Service (DSS) Agents out of a Regional Security Office (RSO) running around GAZA and performing a background investigation (BI). We are talking about USAID grants to the "Ain Media Production Company." AND, we are not talking about a hardcore HAMAS operative, but rather an informant that sells his imagery to HAMAS.

(• ∑ •)

We simply do not know (yet) the character of the photojournalist Yaser Murtaja to make an informed descision.

We simply do not have the information necessary to determine the even which direction the shot came from, let alone who the assailant might have been.

It could be that the photojournalist Yaser Murtaja was squeaky clean and that the Israelis shot him for no reason. BUT we simply do not hold the evidence to support that theory.

Most Respectfully,
R

Good points Rocco. But let add one more. People sure are quick to condemn Murtaja with an equal lack of evidence arent they?

 

[Hollie]

The IDF is apparently investigating this

Every time Israel investigates itself it finds itself not guilty.

Coincident that.

Yeah talk about the fox guarding the henhouse.Thats like trusting Bill "I NEVER HAD SEX WITH THIS WOMAN." Clinton to tell the truth if you asked him if he slept with any women recently.

Yeah, talk about you being ignorant of the facts.

Here's your homework assignment. Do a search with the term:

"israeli soldier found guilty".

Report back to us what you find.

 

[Shusha]

This is where I get extremely frustrated. Where as the pro-Palestinian side can’t admit that Israel has a right to defend its border or even that there were armed people involved, the pro-Israeli’s can’t admit that Israel does and has killed innocent people and might have used excessive lethal force

I think Team Israel does acknowledge that innocent people have been killed by Israel. We frequently note the proportion of Hamas operatives (combatants) as compared to civilian deaths. We don't deny that civilian deaths occur. Our point is that the combatant to civilian ratio, even in an extraordinarily difficult situation such as this one, is better than any other military force on the planet. There is no possible way to have a "perfect score" in a situation such as this one with the presence of so many civilians. And civilians that are actively incited and encouraged (including through payment!) to act like combatants and stay in close proximity to combatants. Its an incredibly difficult position for any moral military force to be in.

The claim here, though, is that Israel deliberately targeted a protected person with intent to kill him. That is an entirely different charge, and one that Team Israel requires very high standards of evidence. For the very reason that Israel DOES appear to have high moral standards and is actively attempting not to kill civilians while still protecting not only their borders and the lives of Israelis, but also prevent the inevitably greater loss of Gazan life should a mass breach occur. Deliberately targeting a protected person would be highly unusual, given the balance of Israel's actions. That's why we want to see some evidence.

While I agree with Rocco, that we simply do not have enough publicly available information to determine the facts of this death, I have my own guess on the matter.

With respect to whether or not Israel has used excessive lethal force, its a fair question. Frankly, I don't think anyone on Team Israel has really had a chance to respond to that. Largely because no one has asked us yet. We are still trying to talk TP down from the "peaceful protest shooting babies occupiers can't defend themselves there is no border" arguments.

But I'd love to engage with you and some others around what is legally and morally proportional force and what would be considered excessive.

 

[member]

RE: Corrupt US government blocks UN from having an independent investigation into 61 murdered palestinians.
※→ Coyote, et al,

Well, I think we might have to agree to disagree; ⇒ not on whether or not the Israelis did - or - did not shoot the Palestinian Journalist → but RATHER on ⇒ whether or not there is sufficient open source information for us to make a knowledgeable allegation.

No they are not three equal theories, because if the IDF had not shot him they sure as heck would have said so by now if only to clear their reputation.

(COMMENT)

I am sure that the police, intelligence, and security services are now (and have been since the beginning of the protest) combing through the imagery and acoustics with today's technology (as well as applying a whole host of other surveillance techniques) searching for associations, gaining new intelligence information and making connects.

I have seen shooting team investigations take considerable time to come to a result even when they have had complete control over the crime scene (not one almost instantly contaminated) and access to all the evidence.

This was a young man with talent, no known history of involvement with Hamas, who had had a background check done by the US agency prior to an award.

(COMMENT)

The possible connection with HAMAS (other than the normal accreditation through HAMAS) is really not known. Don't confuse "vetting" with a background investigation. It is not like the State Department had Diplomatic Security Service (DSS) Agents out of a Regional Security Office (RSO) running around GAZA and performing a background investigation (BI). We are talking about USAID grants to the "Ain Media Production Company." AND, we are not talking about a hardcore HAMAS operative, but rather an informant that sells his imagery to HAMAS.

(• ∑ •)

We simply do not know (yet) the character of the photojournalist Yaser Murtaja to make an informed descision.

We simply do not have the information necessary to determine the even which direction the shot came from, let alone who the assailant might have been.

It could be that the photojournalist Yaser Murtaja was squeaky clean and that the Israelis shot him for no reason. BUT we simply do not hold the evidence to support that theory.

Most Respectfully,
R

". . .I am sure that the police, intelligence, and security services are now (and have been since the beginning of the protest) combing through the imagery and acoustics with today's technology (as well as applying a whole host of other surveillance techniques) searching for associations, gaining new intelligence information and making connects. . ."

hm, too bad the same can't be said about....hamass and abbass and their government workers. [..the way they conduct business]. "the imagery" - how'bout...someday and be hopeful

 

[Humanity]

It is an astonishing shift of law.

Whoooo hold on there...

It was a statement from the UN Shusha. You know them, the UN that, according to Team Israel does not and cannot make law!

No, but they apparently quote law. Wasn't that your point in posting the video? To help us on Team Israel understand the law?

Show me the law which says that States are prohibited from defending the crossing of a legal boundary. Especially when that crossing is by armed people with the stated intent of murdering your citizens.

Have you been drinking water with fluoride Shusha?

I think you are losing the plot!

Team Israel denies and refutes anything that comes from the UN and you are now claiming that they make laws? How does that work?

You are the one commenting on laws, states etc... Why don't YOU show us where these laws are?

Geeze, you are losing it Shusha!

 

[Humanity]

It is OUTSTANDING how you zionists can jump from being the poor, defenseless, down trodden to having the absolute right to murder, indiscriminately, with impunity...

And you wonder why most of the world hates Israel and it's ways?

Israel is not murdering indiscriminately. She is being VERY discriminate. That was my point.

The double standard are those on Team Palestine who insist Gazans have the right to use lethal force even when there is no immanent and immediate risk of death or serious injury while concurrently insisting that Israel is not. It is a blatant hypocrisy.

If I am misrepresenting your beliefs, please clarify by stating clearly, "Gaza is not permitted to use lethal force unless there is immanent and immediate individual risk of death or serious injury." You can follow it up by insisting that every single use of lethal force by Gaza is followed up with an emergency Security Council meeting and independent inquiry.

Just a quick question for you Shusha...

In the recent border troubles, how many Israelis were killed by "lethal force" used by Gazans?

 

[USAF 2023]

It is OUTSTANDING how you zionists can jump from being the poor, defenseless, down trodden to having the absolute right to murder, indiscriminately, with impunity...

And you wonder why most of the world hates Israel and it's ways?

Israel is not murdering indiscriminately. She is being VERY discriminate. That was my point.

The double standard are those on Team Palestine who insist Gazans have the right to use lethal force even when there is no immanent and immediate risk of death or serious injury while concurrently insisting that Israel is not. It is a blatant hypocrisy.

If I am misrepresenting your beliefs, please clarify by stating clearly, "Gaza is not permitted to use lethal force unless there is immanent and immediate individual risk of death or serious injury." You can follow it up by insisting that every single use of lethal force by Gaza is followed up with an emergency Security Council meeting and independent inquiry.

Just a quick question for you Shusha...

In the recent border troubles, how many Israelis were killed by "lethal force" used by Gazans?

Quick answer; Stop trying to tear down the border fence, throwing Rocks, Malatov Cocktails, and other Home Made Weapons. Too complicated for you? Of course it is

 

[Shusha]

In the recent border troubles, how many Israelis were killed by "lethal force" used by Gazans?

Its the wrong question. One uses self-defense at the threat of lethal force. Israel is not obligated to actively allow Gazans to kill Israelis before acting against lethal force.

 

[Shusha]

Seriously. I teach self-defense. When someone comes at you with a knife, you don't wait til he kills you with it before you defend yourself.

 

[Humanity]

It is OUTSTANDING how you zionists can jump from being the poor, defenseless, down trodden to having the absolute right to murder, indiscriminately, with impunity...

And you wonder why most of the world hates Israel and it's ways?

Israel is not murdering indiscriminately. She is being VERY discriminate. That was my point.

The double standard are those on Team Palestine who insist Gazans have the right to use lethal force even when there is no immanent and immediate risk of death or serious injury while concurrently insisting that Israel is not. It is a blatant hypocrisy.

If I am misrepresenting your beliefs, please clarify by stating clearly, "Gaza is not permitted to use lethal force unless there is immanent and immediate individual risk of death or serious injury." You can follow it up by insisting that every single use of lethal force by Gaza is followed up with an emergency Security Council meeting and independent inquiry.

Just a quick question for you Shusha...

In the recent border troubles, how many Israelis were killed by "lethal force" used by Gazans?

Quick answer; Stop trying to tear down the border fence, throwing Rocks, Malatov Cocktails, and other Home Made Weapons. Too complicated for you? Of course it is

Wow Shusha, you have changed!

Shame you did answer the question though... Have another go Shusha...

Too complicated for you? Yes, of course it is!

How dare anyone question the actions of your beloved Israel.

 

[Humanity]

In the recent border troubles, how many Israelis were killed by "lethal force" used by Gazans?

Its the wrong question. One uses self-defense at the threat of lethal force. Israel is not obligated to actively allow Gazans to kill Israelis before acting against lethal force.

Oh really?

You mentioned "lethal force" Shusha...

So I asked the RIGHT question!

Would you like to answer it? You alter ego managed to deflect and not answer the question too!

 

[Humanity]

Seriously. I teach self-defense. When someone comes at you with a knife, you don't wait til he kills you with it before you defend yourself.

You also don't go looking for potential knife killers BEFORE they attack you do you? Maybe you do?

 

[Shusha]

In the recent border troubles, how many Israelis were killed by "lethal force" used by Gazans?

Its the wrong question. One uses self-defense at the threat of lethal force. Israel is not obligated to actively allow Gazans to kill Israelis before acting against lethal force.

Oh really?

You mentioned "lethal force" Shusha...

So I asked the RIGHT question!

Would you like to answer it? You alter ego managed to deflect and not answer the question too!

Dude! Slow your roll.

When the threat of lethal force is apparent you have the right to defend yourself from it. You don't have to wait til you die just to check and make sure that the guy with the knife REALLY intended to kill you.

You are acting as though Israel is somehow obligated to allow her citizens to die before she responds to the threat of lethal force. Do you not hear how ridiculous that is?

 

[Shusha]

Seriously. I teach self-defense. When someone comes at you with a knife, you don't wait til he kills you with it before you defend yourself.

You also don't go looking for potential knife killers BEFORE they attack you do you? Maybe you do?

Actually, in personal self-defense you absolutely do! Because the knife you don't see is the one that is most likely to kill you. Part of defense against knife attacks is knowing there is a knife present before one sticks you.

 

[Shusha]

Humanity

What is your POINT here? Are you trying to claim that there was no use of lethal force and it was a "peaceful protest" by only innocent civilians?

 

[Hollie]

Seriously. I teach self-defense. When someone comes at you with a knife, you don't wait til he kills you with it before you defend yourself.

You also don't go looking for potential knife killers BEFORE they attack you do you? Maybe you do?

Your apologetics for Islamic terrorists is really rather ugly.

But yes, going around looking for potential Islamic terrorist knife killers, suicide bombers, rental truck applicants, etc., is an effective tool to prevent gee-had attacks. You may have read that not just Israel but the entire western world has found a need to protect themselves from the very Islamic terrorists you defend.

 

[Shusha]

But yes, going around looking for potential Islamic terrorist knife killers, suicide bombers, rental truck applicants, etc., is an effective tool to prevent gee-had attacks. You may have read that not just Israel but the entire western world has found a need to protect themselves from the very Islamic terrorists you defend.

What?! Security checks? The HORROR!

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It is OUTSTANDING how you zionists can jump from being the poor, defenseless, down trodden to having the absolute right to murder, indiscriminately, with impunity...

And you wonder why most of the world hates Israel and it's ways?

Israel is not murdering indiscriminately. She is being VERY discriminate. That was my point.

The double standard are those on Team Palestine who insist Gazans have the right to use lethal force even when there is no immanent and immediate risk of death or serious injury while concurrently insisting that Israel is not. It is a blatant hypocrisy.

If I am misrepresenting your beliefs, please clarify by stating clearly, "Gaza is not permitted to use lethal force unless there is immanent and immediate individual risk of death or serious injury." You can follow it up by insisting that every single use of lethal force by Gaza is followed up with an emergency Security Council meeting and independent inquiry.

Just a quick question for you Shusha...

In the recent border troubles, how many Israelis were killed by "lethal force" used by Gazans?

In the recent border troubles, how many Israelis were killed by "lethal force" used by Gazans?

What is the proper number? You know, the number that will make you happy?