Convincing Atheists

Discussion in 'Religion and Ethics' started by dattaswami, Aug 4, 2009.

  1. dattaswami
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    Convincing Atheists
    The logic of atheists is based on perception (Pratyaksha Pramana), which was propagated by the sage Charvaka. Perception means the knowledge derived from the observation with the naked eyes. Infact in the logic (Tarka Sastra) all the means of knowledge are based on perception only. In the inference (Anumana) also, the fire on the hill is inferred by its smoke. But the relationship between the fire and smoke is perceived with the naked eyes only. Similarly other means of knowledge are also based on the perception only. Thus Charvaka forms the basic of the entire logic and without logic there is no knowledge. The statement that the God is above logic must be proved only by perception. The divine miracles performed by the human form of Lord prove that there is a power above the logic. These miracles are seen by the naked eyes. The atheists must be allowed to prove whether the miracles are simply magic tricks. When they cannot prove, they must accept the existence of super power above the logic. If they do not accept this they are contradicting their own basis, which is the perception. The divine miracles are experienced by the devotees and the experience cannot be contradicted. If the experience is contradicted, the experience of the atheists is also contradicted. Therefore atheists must be open-minded and should not be conservative. If they are conservative they have no right to criticize the religious conservatism.

    The theory of Vedas and Bhagavath Gita never contradicts the perception and therefore the logic of atheists becomes the basis of the spiritual knowledge. The Lord comes in human form and this human form is perceived by the naked eyes. Even the miracles performed by demons establish the existence of super power. Therefore to convince the atheists the miracles of the Lord are not necessary. When they are convinced about the existence of the Super power (Maya), the possessor of the Super Power, the Lord, coming in human form must be also accepted because the form is seen by the naked eyes. The salvation is breakage of the bonds in this world. Since the bonds of this world exist based on the perception, the salvation is also existing based on the perception. Since the family members and the money are perceived by the eyes, the bonds with them are also perceived. Thus the salvation (Moksha) must be accepted by the atheists. A single bond with the human form of the Lord is called ‘Saayujya’ or ‘Kaivalya’.

    Since the human form is perceived, Sayujya or Kaivalya is also perceived and must be accepted by the atheists. The Bliss is derived by the devotee from the divine knowledge of the human form of the Lord. Therefore the Bliss is also true according to atheists. Thus the goal, the means to please the Lord (Sadhana) and the fruit of Sadhana (Moksha and Kaivalya) are perceived and exist in this world itself. Veda says ‘Yat Saakshat Aparokshaat’, ‘Pratyagatmana Maikshat’ which mean that the Lord in human form is perceived by the naked eyes. Veda also says ‘Ihachet Avedeet’, which means that everything is true as seen in this world itself. This is called ‘Jeevanmukthi’, which means attaining the salvation while one is alive and not after death. The salvation after the death is not true because that has no basis of perception. Thus if the atheists are little bit patient and leave their aggressive nature of criticism, they are best fitted in the true spiritual knowledge of Vedas. In fact Swami Vidyaranya included the philosophy of Charvaka in his book as one of the logical philosophies (Darsanaas).
     
  2. dattaswami
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    Please avoid emotions, which deactivate the brain and suppress the logical analysis. Emotion or anger is inversely proportional to knowledge. Let us discuss at length and in-depth with love and patience and with full harmony to each other avoiding the personal criticism. Let us concentrate all our attention on the critical subject only. I will come to your path if you convince me and the vice-versa is left to your will and pleasure.

    Every point is a common point and belongs to both of us and we are trying to search the truth by sincere discussions so that both of us shall be benefited by the established truth at the end. One of us will correct his point and such correction is not personal correction. It is only correction of our common point. I am not wrong if my point is wrong. Similar is the case with you. I am not identified with any point, nor yourself. Both of us are analysing a substance because you say that it is chloride and I say that it is bromide. On analysis we shall find the truth and the true knowledge of the substance belongs to both of us. Neither you are chloride nor I am the bromide.

    If it is proved as chloride I am not disproved. Only my point is disproved. One should not identify himself with any point in knowledge and should not feel himself rejected when his point is rejected. In such a state only the spiritual discussions can proceed to any length of time and to any extent of depth till we find the truth. If any one identifies with a point, he will never change since he feels that he himself has to change. He is not changing since he is changing a common point and attaining a true point. He changes his bad shirt and is wearing a good shirt. He is not any shirt. If this concept is realised the discussion can become meaningful. Otherwise the debate is a waste.
     
  3. dattaswami
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    Athiest can never disprove the existence of God

    The atheists can never disprove the existence of unimaginable God due to several unimaginable events (miracles) exhibited by several Godly people and due to several practical experiences of the existence of unimaginable power of God during the lives of several people in this world.

    The miracles are exhibited not only by Godly people and human incarnations but also by evil people having very bad character and conduct, cheating the public in many ways. The development of atheism is mainly due to the existence of such evil people only. But, the atheists are also not analyzing the miracle performed by an evil person. The concept of the miracle is completely different and has nothing to do with the character of the person performing that miracle. A petty fellow, who has worst character due to bad habits like drinking etc., is announcing a rule of Municipality in a town to the public. The message of the announcement has nothing to do with the character of the announcer. Since, the announcer is a bad fellow, you cannot ignore the message of the Municipality and behave as you like. The announcer will be separately punished for his bad character. You will be also punished if you ignore his announcement based on the point that the announcer is not a good fellow.

    Similarly, you have to take the point conveyed by the miracle and ignore the character of the evil person performing that miracle. God will punish him separately for his evil nature. From the unimaginable event (miracle), you should conclude the existence of unimaginable God. This is the message of any miracle to create the fundamental belief in God. Some people having jealousy on great devotees of God or the human incarnation of God, reject the greatness of devotees or incarnation based on miracles by saying “even dirty people perform these miracles. What is the greatness by such miracles?”.

    They pass such comments due to two reasons:

    1) they are jealous of the greatness of devotees or incarnation and
    2) they have not understood the message conveyed by a miracle.

    If a good fellow is announcing a message and if you say that the same message was also announced by a bad fellow previously and hence the message should be neglected, is it correct? A miracle is necessary for majority of human beings to have real belief in the existence of God. Several people are standing on the ground and require this to climb the first step. After having the full belief in the existence of God, miracles are not necessary because the second step is to attain the grace of God through practical sacrifice. But, several theists also need the observation of miracles, because their belief is not perfect and hence to strengthen their belief, miracles are necessary. Even a person having full faith in the existence of God should not criticize the miracles, because you cannot ignore the first step after climbing the second step.
     
  4. Ravi
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    Ravi Diamond Member

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    Who cares?
     
  5. hjmick
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    hjmick Gold Member

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    Why convince anyone? Just believe what you want to believe and let others do the same.
     
  6. Immanuel
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    Immanuel Gold Member

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    It is not up to us to convince anyone. If there is a God, and I believe there is, then God will take care of what needs to be taken care of.

    Immie
     
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  7. dattaswami
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    Lord- Atheist –Service

    Building is there. Implies Builder should be there. Creation is there. Creator should be there. I can see the building, which is in front of my eyes, but builder need not stand in front of the building. He will be in his own job. If you want to meet the builder, you should definitely put effort to locate the builder and see him. Likewise Creation is there in front of our eyes. But have we put anytime effort to locate and identify the creator? Instead of that, with least effort we can propagate to others also that God is not there. They are not only blinded, they are making others also blinded. Some people who are theists may become prey for the propagation of this ignorance also unfortunately. The greatest sin on the earth is to be unfaithful.

    To identify the builder you should know the identification marks, where he lives, what he does etc.. and we have to enquire if we don't know. This is to say that knowledge is required to identify any person. This knowledge is called divine knowledge if the aim is to identify the Lord, which actually only is to be propagated. Lord created this universe for the enjoyment without any selfish motive and we human beings are enjoying the creation. Like through nice parents, wife, children, beautiful nature consisting of pleasant looking mountains, rivers, sea, nature, changing weather etc.

    If we cannot please the Lord, the human life is incomplete. We serve our family members by spending our hard earned money and also physically. Are we not serving family as Servant, and these family members are nearly equal to us. Where as, Lord is omnipotent and requires no help from us, many times satisfied our desires, saved us from mishaps etc. and if we cannot bow our head in front of Him, it is very ridiculous. It is very great honour to serve Him, this is the path followed by His real devotees. These real devotees could overcome ego and always wants to serve Him as servant.

    Jesus preached the gospel and His followers participated in His mission as servants for further propagation of divine knowledge. These great devotees never hesitated to serve Lord Jesus and their names have also been known even today.
     
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  8. BrokenAngel
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    BrokenAngel Do broken wings mend?

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    Dattaswami.. as someone who is religious I would ask you to be careful. You are new to the board so you haven't seen how inflamed people seem to get here over religion, whether they have one or not. Try posting on a few of the active threads, get to know the feel of the people here before trying to engage them in discussions like this.

    The atheists here aren't looking to be convinced and will write you off as a quack for trying. The down side is that it might possibly enrage those who don't have the capacity to argue with you and cause them to come down harder on the rest of us who do believe in a God just to feel vindicated that their perspective is right.

    We all want our beliefs to be the right views and for each of us what they feel, what they think happens to be what is right for that individual. I wish everyone could find the sheer joy I did when I welcomed God into my life, but that also isn't something you can force someone to come to the realization of. Either someone will end up opening their heart to God or they will not, but that is for their heart to decide in due time.

    Well written and thought out arguments though and best of luck to you. Just get to know your audiance before you try to have a discussion with them. Don't want you to burn yourself out too quickly here. :tongue:
     
  9. Immanuel
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    Immanuel Gold Member

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    Broken Angel is right and in some respect it goes to how I feel.

    You cannot "convince" an athiest. Beating them over the head with their lack of faith won't give them faith. It will simply piss them off more. You are better off being faithful to God and letting God have control than stepping up to the plate and attacking everyone that doesn't see eye to eye with your beliefs. If you do that ultimately you will end up frustrated and they will end up hating God more.

    Immie
     
  10. BrokenAngel
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    BrokenAngel Do broken wings mend?

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    How about a picture of Jesus on a piece of pita bread? Would that work?
     

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