Connection Between Jared Lee Loughner and James Holmes?

[Bill Angel]

Here is an interesting coincidence. The following is a dream by Jared Lee Loughner, who pleaded guilty to 19 charges of murder and attempted murder in connection with the shooting in Tucson, Arizona, on January 8, 2011, in which he shot and severely injured U.S. Representative Gabrielle Giffords.

The dream comes from the article “Lucid Dreams Deferred: Jared Loughner's Extraordinary Email Madness”

For clarity’s sake I corrected the author’s grammar a bit, and also reformatted the text.

I was in a building .
There was a man with a bold face.
He was very big.
He had a large face and reddish light brown hair.
He had a shotgun.
He was shooting people at the door with a shotgun and with a tommy gun.
Then a large police truck pulls up, big and white, with a bed in the back.
The black character with a top hat jumped in…
He looked like the Monopoly character.

Here is a picture of James Holmes, who perpetrated the mass shooting at a movie theatre in Aurora Colorado:

James Holmes used a 12-gauge Remington 870 Express Tactical shotgun, and also fired a Smith & Wesson M&P15 semi-automatic rifle with a 100-round drum magazine,which malfunctioned after reportedly firing about 30 rounds.
Note that James Holmes has mixture of hair color similar to what Jared Lee Loughner described in his dream. Also note that James Holmes used weaponry similar to what Laughner depicted in his dream. Also, both the "Joker" from the Batman comics and motion pictures, and the "man in a top hat" from the Monopoly board game are cartoonish images.
Is it possible that James Holmes and Jared Lee Loughner share some kind of connection on a conscious or on an unconscious level?

 

[Bill Angel]

Jared Loughner's attorney to represent Boston bombing suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev

SAN DIEGO - A San Diego attorney will on the defense team representing Boston Marathon bombing suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. Judy Clarke has more than 35 years of legal experience and has been called a "one-woman dream team," previously representing several high-profile defendants, including Susan Smith, al Qaida terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui, "Unabomber" Ted Kaczynski and Jared Loughner.

See:
http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/natio...sent-boston-bombing-suspect-dzhokhar-tsarnaev

 

[Katzndogz]

From what I know about Judy Clark, she doesn't represent anyone and avoids the courtroom. Her experience is in negotiating away the death penalty.

There is really no connection between Loughner and Holmes aside from the same bug eyes. That is also shared by Adam Lanza.

 

[Bill Angel]

From what I know about Judy Clark, she doesn't represent anyone and avoids the courtroom. Her experience is in negotiating away the death penalty.

There is really no connection between Loughner and Holmes aside from the same bug eyes. That is also shared by Adam Lanza.

I think it's of interest to clinical psychologists, and others such as myself, whether aspects of what Carl Jung termed a "collective unconscious" can be discerned in the mental state of persons such as Loughner and Holmes.

Collective Unconscious is a term introduced by psychiatrist Carl Jung to represent a form of the unconscious (that part of the mind containing memories and impulses of which the individual is not aware) common to mankind as a whole and originating in the inherited structure of the brain. It is distinct from the personal unconscious, which arises from the experience of the individual. According to Jung, the collective unconscious contains archetypes, or universal primordial images and ideas.

See http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/125572/collective-unconscious

Some people believe that a person's "lucid dreams", such as those of Jared Lee Loughner, can be a key to understanding their connection to this "collective unconscious".

 

[Politico]

No connection.

 

[Bill Angel]

No connection.

It will be interesting to see what defense James Holmes' lawyers will present. The prosecutors have rejected a plea offer put forward by Holmes' lawyers and are going for the death penalty.
See: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/02/us/prosecutors-seek-death-penalty-against-james-holmes.html

 

[Bill Angel]

James Holmes to plead not guilty by reason of insanity in Aurora movie theater massacre

DENVER — The man accused in the deadly Colorado theater shootings wants to change his plea to not guilty by reason of insanity, his lawyers said Tuesday. Attorneys for James Holmes said in a court filing they plan to formally ask for the change of plea at a May 13 hearing.

See http://www.nydailynews.com/1.1337568

 

[Bill Angel]

Care to try to assemble the puzzle?
See: Jigsaw Planet - Holmes

 

[Bill Angel]

 

[Pogo]

Neither reddish-brown hair nor shotguns are unusual. This is a real stretch to infer a "connection".
No, not rational.

 

[Bill Angel]

Neither reddish-brown hair nor shotguns are unusual. This is a real stretch to infer a "connection".
No, not rational.

Symbols in dreams carry messages from the unconscious to the rational mind.*The workings of the unconscious isn't necessarily rational. And of course there was nothing rational about the motives of Laughner or Holmes that motivated them to commit their crimes. So I think that one is going to have to think "outside the box" of rationality, which is what one does in dream analysis, if one desires to gain any insight into what compelled these individuals to act as they did.

 

[Pogo]

Neither reddish-brown hair nor shotguns are unusual. This is a real stretch to infer a "connection".
No, not rational.

Symbols in dreams carry messages from the unconscious to the rational mind.*The workings of the unconscious isn't necessarily rational. And of course there was nothing rational about the motives of Laughner or Holmes that motivated them to commit their crimes. So I think that one is going to have to think "outside the box" of rationality, which is what one does in dream analysis, if one desires to gain any insight into what compelled these individuals to act as they did.

That's absolutely true, and it implies even less of a connection here. The stretch would require taking the elements literally, which is rarely a useful method of dream interpretation. A striking hair colour is likely symbolic of something, not meant literally. And a shotgun is in this culture not an unusual artifact at all and may have no meaning whatsoever.

On top of that, this is one dream out of a context of unknown dreams. For all we know either reddish hair or shotguns were a common theme in his dreams, for whatever reason of meaning they would have for him.

Noticeable hair in dreams often represents the thought pattern of the subject with the noticeable hair, and the colour red represents negative emotions. These are even broken down into shades:

>> Red Hair (Blood Red) in a dream represents negative or excessive thinking patterns. You or some aspect of your personality that's not being genuine or caring. Red hair may also reflect lying, cheating, anger, or being mean to someone.

Orange hair (Redhead, Ginger, Or Carrot Top) in a dream represents a thinking style that is noticable or hard to avoid noticing. Beliefs, emotions, or situations that are impossible to stop or avoid. An area of your life that is overpowering your focus and can't go unnoticed. << (Dream Bible)

-- So any figure in a dream that was about some nasty business might be likely to have reddish hair, denoting not his personal identity but his thoughts. In that sense it's more plausible that James Holmes dyed his hair that way for that subconscious reason, but it doesn't point to a personal connection between two people who don't even know each other.

Now the shotgun:

>> To dream of a shotgun represents the power to make a decision that is significant, powerful, or has lasting consequences. A shotgun symbolizes choices that are dramatic. Dealing with a problem with one final shot.

If bad people in a dream hold a shotgun it represents negative personality traits with the power to make dramatic choices that could sabotage you, or "burn bridges." It may also reflect your own wish to get back at someone powerfully. << (same source)

We might have something here as regards Loughner's motivations, considering he was seemingly out for some twisted revenge on Gabby Giffords for not taking him seriously in the past. But again, to interpret dreams as the personal internal symbols they are makes more sense than implying some prophetic image of a future event. The reddish hair might better be interpreted as either Loughner himself, or a wish-model that he later followed.

From my limited knowledge and experience, a dream that foretells a future event doesn't use symbology but rather is literal. Properly it isn't a "dream" but a vision that might come in a REM state (or elsewhere) when we briefly cross that plane that restricts us to our own temporal dimension. But the "cartoonish images" (which IMO describe every dream) such as the man in the top hat lend an air of surreality here that strongly implies a personal symbologism rather than a literal forecast of a future event.

And besides, even if it had been a prescient vision of Holmes, it doesn't follow that the dreamer should act this out before the event takes place, which seems to be the implication here.

My 2¢...

 

[Jos]

Dont mention the SSRI meds they were both on

 

[Luddly Neddite]

I doubt it but I do like your avatar.

 

[Bill Angel]

Dont mention the SSRI meds they were both on

That's an interesting and apparently
relevant point.

Consciousness on the verge of Dreaming and Reality
We already know that an active serotonergic system suppresses REM sleep and thereby REM related dreaming. Our brains need to dream. Although we do not always remember our dreams, we are dreaming around 4 to 5 times every night. Only a few days of sleep deprivation (and thus dreaming) will cause the brain to hallucinate. To counteract the SSRI-AntiDepressant induced suppression of REM related dreaming, the brain litterly forces it's dreams upon us....
From SSRI-AntiDepressant induced "consciousness on the verge of dreaming and reality", it will be a very close step to SSRI-AntiDepressant induced "psychosis" or "hallucinatory psychosis", in which extremely lifelike dreams/nightmares become hallucinations and will be experienced for real! Many (former) SSRI-AntiDepressant users reported major perception changes, altered states of consciousness, a disturbed sense of reality and out of character behaviour. The symptoms vary from urges to spend money excessively, flamboyant/provocative behaviour, indifference and mania, abnormal dream and thought patterns, racing thoughts, hearing voices or telepathic like thoughts and akathisia (an extreme mental state of inner restlessness). Also frequently reported is the feeling of living in a bubble, feeling possessed or living in a dream.

See http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/pinealstory2.htm

 

[Pogo]

Dont mention the SSRI meds they were both on

That's an interesting and apparently
relevant point.

Consciousness on the verge of Dreaming and Reality
We already know that an active serotonergic system suppresses REM sleep and thereby REM related dreaming. Our brains need to dream. Although we do not always remember our dreams, we are dreaming around 4 to 5 times every night. Only a few days of sleep deprivation (and thus dreaming) will cause the brain to hallucinate. To counteract the SSRI-AntiDepressant induced suppression of REM related dreaming, the brain litterly forces it's dreams upon us....
From SSRI-AntiDepressant induced "consciousness on the verge of dreaming and reality", it will be a very close step to SSRI-AntiDepressant induced "psychosis" or "hallucinatory psychosis", in which extremely lifelike dreams/nightmares become hallucinations and will be experienced for real! Many (former) SSRI-AntiDepressant users reported major perception changes, altered states of consciousness, a disturbed sense of reality and out of character behaviour. The symptoms vary from urges to spend money excessively, flamboyant/provocative behaviour, indifference and mania, abnormal dream and thought patterns, racing thoughts, hearing voices or telepathic like thoughts and akathisia (an extreme mental state of inner restlessness). Also frequently reported is the feeling of living in a bubble, feeling possessed or living in a dream.

See Antidepressants Facts: Pineal Gland, Serotonin & SSRI's side effects (2)

With all due respect I have to wonder if the point here has evaded you.
The passage above is about hallucinations, not dreams.

We all need to dream, and do so in REM sleep every night whether we remember dreaming or not. It's part of mental health. When those dreams are suppressed either by sleep deprivation or by drugs that may allow sleep (but deprive REM sleep), those dreams we didn't get the chance to experience tend to manifest in waking hours as hallucinations -- dreams or dream fragments superimposed on the conscious senses. That's what this passage above refers to.

But your OP refers to actual dreams, not waking hallucinations. While meds may certainly have played a major role in Loughner's act (and others), for the purpose of this topic it's kind of a red herring, since we're talking about dreams from his purported journal, dreams from "more than a year" before the event, dreams like we all have, not drug-induced hallucinations.

That's what I thought you were looking for commentary on -- the dream.

Incidentally your OP article seems to harp on lucid dreaming in a way that suggests to me he doesn't know what he's talking about:

>> some news orgs speculated that maybe, perhaps, Loughner thought killing all those people that day was all just a dream. <<

-- that's not how lucid dreaming works at all. In lucid dreaming the dreamer absolutely knows he's dreaming-- that's essential, otherwise it's not lucid dreaming. The idea is controlling the dream. So that suggestion sounds as irresponsibly superficial as the (thankfully brief) focus on Adam Lanza's Asperger's Syndrome.

 

[Bill Angel]

With all due respect I have to wonder if the point here has evaded you. The passage above is about hallucinations, not dreams. We all need to dream, and do so in REM sleep every night whether we remember dreaming or not. It's part of mental health. When those dreams are suppressed either by sleep deprivation or by drugs that may allow sleep (but deprive REM sleep), those dreams we didn't get the chance to experience tend to manifest in waking hours as hallucinations -- dreams or dream fragments superimposed on the conscious senses. That's what this passage above refers to. But your OP refers to actual dreams, not waking hallucinations. While meds may certainly have played a major role in Loughner's act (and others), for the purpose of this topic it's kind of a red herring, since we're talking about dreams from his purported journal, dreams from "more than a year" before the event, dreams like we all have, not drug-induced hallucinations. That's what I thought you were looking for commentary on -- the dream. Incidentally your OP article seems to harp on lucid dreaming in a way that suggests to me he doesn't know what he's talking about: >> some news orgs speculated that maybe, perhaps, Loughner thought killing all those people that day was all just a dream. << -- that's not how lucid dreaming works at all. In lucid dreaming the dreamer absolutely knows he's dreaming-- that's essential, otherwise it's not lucid dreaming. The idea is controlling the dream. So that suggestion sounds as irresponsibly superficial as the (thankfully brief) focus on Adam Lanza's Asperger's Syndrome.

I had an experience several years ago which may be relevant to this discussion. I was asleep and dreaming. It was early morning and someone attempted to wake me by shaking my shoulder while yelling "time to get up!". So what does my brain do? It integrates the shaking and the yelling into the scenario of the dream and refuses to wake up! But after this situation had gone on for maybe a minute or more, my brain recognized what it was doing and woke up.
If you are in a situation where your mind has convinced itself is totally different from the actual situation, even when someone is shaking you and yelling at you, would that not fit the characterization of a hallucination? And when your mind finally recognizes the difference between your actual situation (laying in bed sleeping) and the imagined situation (riding around on a bicycle in the country), would one's situation then not be characterized as "lucid dreaming"?

 

[Pogo]

With all due respect I have to wonder if the point here has evaded you. The passage above is about hallucinations, not dreams. We all need to dream, and do so in REM sleep every night whether we remember dreaming or not. It's part of mental health. When those dreams are suppressed either by sleep deprivation or by drugs that may allow sleep (but deprive REM sleep), those dreams we didn't get the chance to experience tend to manifest in waking hours as hallucinations -- dreams or dream fragments superimposed on the conscious senses. That's what this passage above refers to. But your OP refers to actual dreams, not waking hallucinations. While meds may certainly have played a major role in Loughner's act (and others), for the purpose of this topic it's kind of a red herring, since we're talking about dreams from his purported journal, dreams from "more than a year" before the event, dreams like we all have, not drug-induced hallucinations. That's what I thought you were looking for commentary on -- the dream. Incidentally your OP article seems to harp on lucid dreaming in a way that suggests to me he doesn't know what he's talking about: >> some news orgs speculated that maybe, perhaps, Loughner thought killing all those people that day was all just a dream. << -- that's not how lucid dreaming works at all. In lucid dreaming the dreamer absolutely knows he's dreaming-- that's essential, otherwise it's not lucid dreaming. The idea is controlling the dream. So that suggestion sounds as irresponsibly superficial as the (thankfully brief) focus on Adam Lanza's Asperger's Syndrome.

I had an experience several years ago which may be relevant to this discussion. I was asleep and dreaming. It was early morning and someone attempted to wake me by shaking my shoulder while yelling "time to get up!". So what does my brain do? It integrates the shaking and the yelling into the scenario of the dream and refuses to wake up! But after this situation had gone on for maybe a minute or more, my brain recognized what it was doing and woke up.
If you are in a situation where your mind has convinced itself is totally different from the actual situation, even when someone is shaking you and yelling at you, would that not fit the characterization of a hallucination? And when your mind finally recognizes the difference between your actual situation (laying in bed sleeping) and the imagined situation (riding around on a bicycle in the country), would one's situation then not be characterized as "lucid dreaming"?

No. That's not what lucid dreaming is at all. Lucid dreaming is the same as normal dreaming, except you're aware that you're in a dream state and consciously decide to stay in it and steer the dream. You sort of navigate conscious deliberate decisions on where to go next in the dream, in order to see where the brain wants to take you. But its all done intentionally and deliberately. You can't wake up and come to the revelation that you've just been lucid dreaming. By definition that's a contradiction.

What they've implied in the article is hogwash. There's nothing involuntary or deceptive about lucid dreaming. That's the whole point; it's lucid.

Integrating sounds and senses that are in the real environment into the dream is very common. And fascinating.

I had an experience where it was afternoon and I hadn't slept the entire night before and lay down on the couch to briefly rest. I entered that state between awake and asleep and suddenly I saw a big truck out of his lane coming right at me. Just a momentary vision, not really a dream. I jumped up in reaction and realized I wasn't driving, I was home on my couch. But a couple of days later while driving, that same truck came around a curve veering out of its lane. Because it was the second time around for me, I was fully expecting it and was already taking evasive action.

Although it played in my head like a dream, I would draw a distinction between this vision and a dream; this was just a momentary flash, no plot, no characters, and most significantly, no symbolism. Just a moment of terror, in detail. It's not much experience to go on but I suspect prophetic visions, when they are such, play out literally rather than symbolically. It's fascinating stuff.